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Marks and Spencer Personal Reserve Debt - Some Help Please


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Hi had great help on my other threads so hope can get some more with my M&S questions

 

At the moment with Payplan but thinking of doing own DMP

- am trying to get everything clear in my mind before deciding

 

First off terms and conditions provided after CCA request is illegible

 

- sorry can't at the moment upload stuff but I am sure I have read somewhere

that that would make agreement unenforceable

but have also read that that is not now necessarily the case

 

- could anyone point in the right direction to read up on this

 

- whatever I was reading I seem to have lost it

 

This account was sold to Tessera years ago

 

when I got back my SAR from M&S

I was surprised that there were statements showing my payments right up to the current date - is that normal ??

 

I though the Marks statements would finish the same time as debt was sold

 

BUT my big question is that

 

 

I have a M&S statement of transactions saying sold to Tessera

and date and amount and

 

 

the next statement which has M&S Bank details at the top is dated the next day

but the balance owed has increased by over £600

- nothing to explain why but that has mega increased my debt

- can extra just be added like this

 

My last letter is from Rockwell and it shows balance owed to M&S

so I am totally confused about who actually owns the debt

 

Any advice help please

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sorry you got missed before.

 

 

is this debt on your credit file?

 

 

when did you take it out please?

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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if its illegible, it does not meet the requirements

 

who and when did you send the request to?

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Any help I am able to give is from my own experience only. Should you have any doubt you should contact a qualified professional.

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Hi sent request to Tessera and got reply back from Rockwell saying enclosing copy of executed agreement

plus copy of terms and conditions at account opening

plus copy of current terms

plus statement of account

and that they have satisfied their obligation and it is enforceable

 

What I got was copy of application form which included terms and conditions (both very poor quality)

- it was a postal form which had to be returned

 

There is another set of terms and conditions which I can read

but they appear to be a lot longer than the poor quality conditions

and the numbering is a bit different but perhaps that is why it is enforceable

 

Sorry can't upload - hope to do so soon

 

Anyone any ideas about the increase in debt

- made it about a third more than I owed at date of sale

 

thanks for all the help

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can you not take photos?

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 1 month later...

Hi Just had letter from M&S saying my account has been returned from Rockwell to M&S and they will now manage account

- this change is a result of a review undertaken by M&S

 

Any ideas why this has happened?

Is this normal?

 

Sorry only very limited access to computer at moment

- hopefully will improve next year and will be able to upload

 

Thanks!

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wheres your signature?

 

 

is it there

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Apologies I ran out of tme in the library and

did not even realise this was uploaded! Twice by the looks of it!,

 

I meant to add some information to go with the upload so a bit late but here it is

 

I received from M&S copy of application/agreement form + copy of terms and conditions when account opened + copy of current terms and conditions

 

I did not upload first page of application form as it is very difficult to read apart from my personal details

which are clear but once these are removed it would be more or less illegible but this page does have my signature in a credit agreement box

 

The second page is of very poor quality and difficult to read and impossible in some places

 

The copy of the terms and conditons is clear to read but it does not tie in all the time with application form terms and conditions

 

Condition 3 on original is Restrictions and Suspension of Use but on the copy terms is Telephone Requests for Funds

Condition 4 on original is Credit Limit but is No 4 and 8 on the copy terms (but No 8 actually refers to closing account which is No 7 on original terms)

 

Don't know if this makes any difference - letter says fully enforceable but just wanted to check

Thanks for you help

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yes it does make a diff

 

 

they must send the T&C applicable at te time of opening

and any significant changes to date

 

 

un-en if ref nos don't match agreement to first T&C 's

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi thanks for your reply - have been trying to work out the best way forward with this one

- had a few nice letters back from other creditors saying accounts unenforceable which makes things a lot easier!

 

Should I write and point out that terms & conditions don't match and see what they come back with

 

Did wonder whether I needed to do a CCA request to M&S now they have taken account back as original request went to Rockwell

 

Thanks for all your help and Happy New Year!

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I'd await M&S next move pers.

 

 

when did you last pay anything?

 

 

and to whom?

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hi am still paying -

was paying Rockwell but now M&S as they have taken it back

- did wonder if that was because I started doing own DMP rather than using Payplan

 

Rockwell said they had provided eveything which they got from M&S and it was enforceable -

it was only after doing a lot of reading on this site

that I realised that I needed to look at what was actually provided to try and work out if really enforceable

 

Not sure of best way forward if told enforceable

 

Grareful for any advice on this

 

 

Thanks!

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post 4 applies surely.

 

 

illegible

wrong T&C's

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hello

 

 

just worked out why I was wondering about sending new CCA request

- was reading on this site about CONC 13 guidance on duty to give information

and about firm must not mislead as to enforceability

 

 

so would M&S have to say not enforceable or have I got that wrong

 

 

- perhaps they would not know unenforceable unless documents queried

 

Hope that makes sense

Thank!

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let see what they do

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 1 year later...

Hi

been chased by M&S

wrote to them saying they had not complied with my CCA request as terms & conditions illegible

 

Have had letter back (have set out main part below)

which hopefully someone can give me some advice on ...

 

We have complied with the requirements of s77/78 of the CCA1974

in particular we have supplied copies compliant with Reg 3(2)(b) of the Consumer Credit

(Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regs 1983.....

 

There is no duty under the Act obliging a creditor to provide further copies of copy agreements

or notices already supplied under Sections 62, 63 and 64 of the Act.

 

 

These copies and notices are required to be provided to you when the agreement was made

and this was done at that time.

 

 

If it is your assertion that we did not comply with these sections at the time the agreement was made,

we will be obliged to put you to strict proof.

 

The agreement you have signed and a copy of which has been provided to you

has been photocopied in full from our records

this is a copy of the original document, front and back which carries the terms and conditions.

 

 

Enclosed is a further copy of the agreement with further copy of the original tems and conditions......

 

would really like some help - I just don't understand the paragraph about no duty under the Act etc

 

The copy agreement is the application form which I assume is meant to double up as the agreement

- you can read my application details on it but most of the rest is very difficult and/or impossible to read

- the majority of the terms and conditions are impossible to read

 

I assume that M&S are saying that they have complied because they have supplied copies of originals docs

even though mostly illegible

 

 

I would really like to doublecheck that these docs need to be legible

 

Is there something that actually makes that clear

- I have been trying to research that and have come up with s2 Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices & Copies of Documents) Regs 1983 but not sure if that applies here

 

 

- any help please Thanks!

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did we not conclude the T&C's were not even the correct ones for the time of take out?

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hi thanks for your reply - last time I got the same copy application/agreement form including terms and conditions which was almost illegible plus copy terms and conditions 'when account was opened' which I realised did not tie in with the actual application/agreement form terms and conditions

 

So yes the copy terms/conditions not the right ones but the illegible one I assume must be from the take-out date just can't read them

 

What I was just wondering is why don't they send a recon so there is not illegible problems? and also if it goes to court do they need to provide legible copy?

 

Realy appreciate your help and such a quick response - thanks!

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No idea if this will help but I seem to remember that M&S got defeated in court because they tried to say the account was a current account and therefore S78 not applicable.

I will see if I can find the blog and copy and paste it

 

Marks and Spencers Credit accounts being incorrectly stated as current accounts and overdrafts

October 25, 2015

Over the past few weeks Marks and Spencers accounts have come back onto my radar. As many will be aware, i was the fee earner who was responsible for drafting the Defence in the case of Santander v Mayhew, that case involved some interesting arguments which as can be seen from the Judgment, prevailed.

 

The Harrods store card in that case was no different to the Debenhams cards, and Marks and Spencers cards, although im sure they will all claim their agreements are compliant and enforceable blah blah blah.

 

Anyway, M&S agreements have hit my radar, this time because third party debt purchasers are arguing that they are in fact overdraft accounts and therefore not regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

After hearing this argument i had to pick myself up off the floor from laughing so much, the thing is that when you look at the arguments being put forward you realise quickly that they are talking nonsense, why? well it is claimed that M&S current account was opened in 1997 in this particular case however with a quick piece of research i was able to prove beyond any doubt that the account was in fact incapable of being an overdraft on an account in 1997 as M&S didnt issue such accounts at that point in time.

 

The biggest problem is that many consumers wont know where to look or how to prove their case. If you do face such a claim however, there is help at hand, i have just recently dealt with such a claim brought by Arrow Global in the County Court. We successfully beat the Claimant at trial and had a declaration given that the agreement was unenforceable and furthermore costs were awarded against the Claimant.

Any opinion I give is from personal experience .

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Thanks fletch70 for that information

 

I could not get my head round why in one paragraph M&S say they have complied with S78 and in the next that actually there is no duty for them to provide copies of agreements etc etc

but after reading your post and around a bit on the net perhaps they are trying to imply that account was an overdraft

 

Think I will just write back and say they need to provide legible T&Cs - any advice on this please Thanks!

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