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Claimform Arrows/Drydens - Credit card 'debt'


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"you will prob still be filing the holding/no paperwork defence

regardless to the timescale of the CCA."

 

Would you say that is the likely route,

seeming that the alleged agreement started before April 2007

before the consumer credit act 2006 came into effect

where a signed agreement is needed to be shown before court.

 

Or am I jumping the gun here?.... 4 days non-stop research I think I'm getting there :!:

 

Again Thank You

 

Your research is paying dividends ...as it is a pre 2007 agreement then a reconstituted version will not suffice...but you have to argue that and back it up with legal argument.

We could do with some help from you.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello

 

Just to update everyone...

 

I have sent CCA request to DCA and CPR to solicitors on 23/10/14 both postal recorded and the CCA with a £1 postal order enclosed...

 

As of today (30/10/11) I have not heard anything...

 

My defence deadline is 03/11/14.. 3 days away

 

Questions;

 

a) First and foremost, is the county court defence submitted online or by post? If the latter I better get to it by tomorrow.

b) As I have not heard anything from both parties (DCA and Solicitor) do I go ahead with defence or will court see they haven't cooperated and throw case out?

c) I didn't send a second letter to both parties (the 10 day rule which is down to 3 day rule on short time) does this affect me in anyway? Should I still send second letter even with 3 days left till defence?

d) The legal requirement for them to respond is 12 days? Am I correct/wrong? Is this working days? And what happens if this overruns the defence deadline date? Can they turn around and say to court 'not given enough time'?

 

 

Much appreciation for any help

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a either

b.you file the holding/no paperwork defence widely available her adapted to your poc.

c. there is no such rule or need to follow up cca/cpr

d. you file regardless on time.

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Sorry forgot to ask..

 

Is the defence done in a letter format? What is the outlay of a defence? Does it need to be very formal with do's and dont's or can I explain in a casual/relaxed way?

 

Finally.., I'm literally wrekin nerves right now.., can anyone guide me through this? I have no idea where to start, kinda having a blank page syndrome, is there a template out there?

 

Many Many Thanks

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nope no templates

as each is unique to the points in their PoC on the claimform.

 

 

I suggest you browse a few threads here in the forum you are

and in

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?190-DCA-Legal-Successes

 

 

start the process

 

 

post up what you think

 

 

then the knowledgeable ones will help.

 

 

you have a few days yet

have a go

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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you need to file by midnight of the 3rd

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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post 3 has the numbered points you need to respond too

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

Your research is paying dividends ...as it is a pre 2007 agreement then a reconstituted version will not suffice...but you have to argue that and back it up with legal argument.

 

Can you point me to where I can find out more about this. I have read the Carey case and am now confused as it seems to state in there that a reconstituted version will suffice as long as the contents required are supplied.

I'm not a legal expert. Any help or advice I offer is based upon experience gained from this fantastic forum.

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you don't need to bother about this in your case

you simply file the holding/no paperwork defence

 

 

you are NOT arguing its enforceability

you HAVENT EVEN SEEN IT.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Can you point me to where I can find out more about this. I have read the Carey case and am now confused as it seems to state in there that a reconstituted version will suffice as long as the contents required are supplied.

 

It does not relate to Carey.....changes made to the CCA1974 in 2008 (CCA2006) closed a lot of loopholes with regards to the argument of unenforcible and prescribes terms etc. However they are not retrospective and therefore if your agreement is pre April 2007 the changes are not applicable and only the original signed executed agreement will suffice with regards to enforcing the debt.

 

They can supply a reconstituted version for the purposes of section 77/78/79...but that's a different matter...which is all Carey is really about.

 

Regards

 

Andy.

 

PS Do not use the example defence DX has posted above that's with regards to a catalogue claim/ defence.You need a Credit Card defence.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHER

 

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group - The National Consumer Service

If you want advice on your Topic please PM me a link to your thread

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oh silly me so it is

i'll find the right link later.

thanks andy.

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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oh silly me so it is

i'll find the right link later.

thanks andy.

 

 

dx

 

Your forgiven this time DX...dont let it happen again:lol:

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHER

 

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group - The National Consumer Service

If you want advice on your Topic please PM me a link to your thread

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hello all..

 

I've just checked via royal mail online the two recorded letters I sent and it says 'still processing'... is there some funny business going on here?

 

Both DCA and solicitor gave letter back without signing?

 

and Andy what do you mean by following?

 

"PS Do not use the example defence DX has posted above that's with regards to a catalogue claim/ defence.You need a Credit Card defence."

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you need to get your defence ready

 

 

you need to file it by midnight tomorrow

 

 

post 38 refers.

 

 

put it up here first. please

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hello all..

 

Below I have typed out the particulars of claim and below each of them I have given me arguments/points, I might need some help how to properly word this is in a 'legal/professional' way..

 

1. The claim is for the sum of xxxx in respect of monies owing by the defendant on a credit agreement held by defendant with Sainsbury Bank PLC under account number xxxxxx upon which the defendant failed to maintain payments.

My argument/points:

 

a) Please show evidence of me entering an agreement with Sainsbury Bank. I would like to see a clearly signed agreement physically signed by me.

b) There is no dates nor outline of these alleged 'payments'

c) How did you come up with the amount in first place? What is the breakdown of this?

2. A default notice was served upon the defendant and has not been complied with.

a) Please show me proof of this notice served upon me

b) There is no date of when this alleged notice was served?

 

3. By virtue of a sale agreement between Sainsbury's Bank PLC and the claimant,

the claim vested in the claimant who has a genuine commercial interest.

The defendant has been notified of the assignment by letter.

 

a) There is no dates of this sold agreement or letter of assignment

b) Proof letter of assignment sent to me?

c) The claimant has genuine commercial interest but do they have legal power to pursue?

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Need to file it by 4.00pm...otherwise it will be processed the next day (1 day late)

 

Andy

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHER

 

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group - The National Consumer Service

If you want advice on your Topic please PM me a link to your thread

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UPDATE:

 

Received letter from DCA today stating;

"we do not accept that we are the originating creditor as envisaged by the above statute. However, we are willing to assist in obataining that which has been requested. We will now process your request for documentation from the creditor and will revert in due course."

 

Received letter from solicitor stating;

"Please not we are obtaining our clients instructions in relation to your requests and will revert to you in due course."

 

Do I mention the above two responses in the defence I submit?

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Both standard nonsense...one and half hours to submit your defence.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHER

 

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group - The National Consumer Service

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1. I am the defendant in this action and make the following statement as my defence to the claim made by Arrow Global Limited.

 

2. Except where otherwise mentioned in this defence, I neither admit nor deny any allegation made in the claimants Particulars of Claim and put the claimant to strict proof thereof.

 

3.The claimants claim form fails to adequately or even accurately set out the nature of the claim. They fail to comply with the Civil procedure rules, in particular part 16 and practice direction 16, in particular paragraph 7.3 as the claimant has failed to supply a copy of the written document which forms the basis of this claim.

 

4. The claimant has failed to set out how the figures which they claim are calculated nor do they set out the nature and scope of any charges contained within the figure claimed

 

5. The claimant has failed to also attach a copy of the default notice which they claim has been served under s87 (1) Consumer credit act 1974

 

6. The courts powers of enforcement in cases relating to Regulated Credit Agreements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 are subject to certain qualifications being met with regards to the form and content of the documentation, in particular the Credit agreement and the Default notice. Therefore these Documents must be produced before the court and must comply with the relevant sections of the consumer credit act and the regulations made under the act, I will address these requirements later in this defence

 

 

 

7. Further more the claimant has failed to attach a copy of the deed of assignment and proof of posting for the notice of assignment which is required to comply with Section 196 of the Law of Property Act 1925. so I place the claimant to strict proof that the notice of assignment was posted prior to the start of this action. Should the claimant not be able to produce this proof, I contend that the claimant would not have a legal right to this action and the case should be struck out without further notice

 

8. Consequently due to the claimants failure to supply the documents required under the civil procedure rules and the fact that the claimant has failed to sufficiently particularized the claim I deny all allegations in the particulars of claim that I am indebted to the claimant in any way and put the claimant to strict proof thereof

 

9. I will now look at the important issues relating to this case which must be brought to the courts attention

 

 

Pre-action protocols

 

10. The claimant Arrow Global Limited has failed to follow the pre-action protocols insofar as they did not send any letter before action as required by paragraph 4.3 of Practice Direction-Protocols, nor did they attempt to enter into any negotiations to try and resolve the issues. Instead they launched into immediate litigation and it would appear that they did this before the assignment was carried out correctly.

 

The Request for Disclosure

 

(Copy of my CPR 31.14 request to Drydensfairfax Solicitors attached and also his response)

 

12. Further to the case, on 21 October 2014 I requested the disclosure of information pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules, which is vital to this case from the claimant. The information requested amounted to copies of the Credit Agreement referred to in the particulars of claim and any default or termination notices, to rely on, including any default notices or termination notice, and a copy of the Notice of Assignment required to give the claimant a legitimate right of action.

 

13. To Date the claimant has ignored my request under the CPR and I have not received any such documentation requested. As a result it has proven difficult to compose this defence without disclosure of the information requested, especially given that I am Litigant in Person

 

14. The claimant is therefore put to strict proof that a document which is legible and Compliant with the Consumer Credit Act and subsequent Regulations made under the Act exists

 

 

 

 

The Credit Agreement

 

 

15. The Agreement referred to in the particulars of claim relates to a Credit agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Under the said act there are certain conditions laid down by parliament which must be complied with if such agreement is to be enforced by the courts

 

16. Firstly, the agreement must contain certain terms under regulations made by the Secretary of State under section 60(1) CCA 1974, the regulations referred to are the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553)

 

17. The prescribed terms referred to are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: -

 

A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following:

 

1. Number of repayments

 

2. Amount of repayments

 

3. Frequency and timing of repayments

 

4. Dates of repayments

 

5. The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

18. If the agreement does not contain these terms it does not comply with section 60(1) CCA 1974, the consequences of which means it is improperly executed and only enforceable by court order

 

19. Notwithstanding point 18, The agreement must be signed in the prescribed manner to comply with s61 (1) CCA 1974, if the agreement is not signed by debtor or creditor it is also improperly executed and again only enforceable by court order

 

20. The courts powers of enforcement where agreements are improperly executed by way of section 65 CCA 1974 are themselves subject to certain qualifying factors. Under section 127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 the requirements are laid out clearly what is required for the court to be able to enforce the agreement where section 65(1) has not been complied with127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer(whether or not in the prescribed manner).

21. The courts attention is also drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 and the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and Consumer Credit (Agreements) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 (SI2004/1482) the agreement cannot be enforced

 

22. With regards to the Authority cited in point 21, I refer to LORD NICHOLLS OF BIRKENHEAD in the House of Lords Wilson v First County Trust Ltd - [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) paragraph 29

 

" The court's powers under section 127(1) are subject to significant qualification in two types of cases. The first type is where section 61(1)(a), regarding signing of agreements, is not complied with. In such cases the court 'shall not make' an enforcement order unless a document, whether or not in the prescribed form, containing all the prescribed terms, was signed by the debtor: section 127(3). Thus, signature of a document containing all the prescribed terms is an essential prerequisite to the court's power to make an enforcement order."

 

23. Therefore it is submitted that without production of the credit agreement no enforcement order should be made as this would be unjust and against the rulings of the House of Lords and also against the Consumer Credit Act 1974 which was enacted clearly to offer a certain level of protection to consumers

 

 

The Default Notice

 

24. Notwithstanding the matters pleaded above, the claimant must under section 87(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 serve a default notice before they can demand payment under a regulated credit agreement

 

25. It is neither admitted or denied that any Default Notice in the prescribed format was ever received and the Defendant puts the Claimant to strict proof that said document in the prescribed format was delivered to the defendant

 

26. Notwithstanding point 25, I put the claimant to strict proof that any default notice sent to me was valid. I note that to be valid, a default notice needs to be accurate in terms of both the scope and nature of breach and include an accurate figure required to remedy any such breach. The prescribed format for such document is laid down in Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1561) and Amendment regulations the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 (SI 2004/3237)

 

27. Failure of a default notice to be accurate not only invalidates the default notice (Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain and Co - [2001] GCCR 2255) but is a unlawful rescission of contract which would not only prevent the court enforcing any alleged debt, but give me a counter claim for damages Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society [1996] 4 All ER 119

 

 

 

The Assignment of the debt

 

28. As stated in point 7, claimant had instigated this action, consequently, I require the claimant produce the Deed of Assignment to show that it is indeed valid and compliant with the Law of Property Act 1925 and further more I require the claimant disclose proof of posting per s196 LoP Act 1925

 

29. I refer to W F Harrison & Co Ltd v Burke and another - [1956] 2 All ER 169 where it was held that the notice of assignment was bad because the date of the assignment was wrongly stated therein and, therefore, the legal right to the debt under the hire-purchase agreement had not been assigned effectually at law within s 136(1) a of the Law of Property Act, 1925 and put the claimant to strict proof that the assignment has been carried out correctly

 

30. If no Deed of Assignment can be produced it is requested that the court strike out the claimants’ case as the claimant will not have a right to bring this action against me in their name

 

Conclusion

 

31. I respectfully ask the court to use its case management powers to order the claimant to disclose the information requested within this defence document as it is vital to allow me the opportunity to defend this action properly and would be unjust and totally unfair to allow this action to continue without allowing me the opportunity to view the documents which form the basis of this claim

 

32. I further ask the court consider striking out the claimants’ case as it fails to comply with part 16 and practice direction 16 insofar that no documents have been supplied and fails to show any consideration to the overriding objective to allow the court to deal with this case justly

 

33. In addition, if the claimant cannot produce a credit agreement in the prescribed form signed in the prescribed manner by debtor and creditor, the court is precluded from making an enforcement order under s127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and it is requested that the court use its powers under section 142 Consumer Credit Act 1974 to declare the agreement unenforceable and strike out the claimants case accordingly

 

34. Alternatively, I respectfully request a stay in proceedings until such time as the claimant complies with the requests outlined in point 12 above or until the court orders its compliance with the same. I will then be in a position to file a fully particularised defence and counterclaim and will seek the courts permission to amend my statement of case accordingly.

 

 

 

 

 

35. In addition it is drawn to the courts attention that schedule 3, s11 of the Consumer Credit Act 2006 prevents s15 repealing s127 (3) of the 1974 Act for agreements made before s15 came into effect since the agreement is alleged to have commenced under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 which is the relevant act in this case.

 

 

 

Statement of Truth

 

 

I, believe the above statement to be true and factual

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where did that come from, not a FOTL site I hope

 

 

much too much there

 

 

post 1 here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?431941-Carter-Lowells-Claimform-Vanquis-debt-s-***-Claims-Dismissed

simply adapt to the number of your PoC

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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