UKCPS invoice but no ticket left on car ** CANCELLED **

[Cardiff Devil]

Had my first PPC invoice for a few years and my first since the game changed (the last couple I had were in early 2012 which I used to just ignore). I parked at the Red Dragon Centre in Cardiff briefly on September 5th to drop my daughter off at the cinema. As I was only dropping off I stopped in a disabled bay. Came back out of the centre 5 minutes later to find UKCPS's pet Orangutan taking a picture of the front of my car. A few words were exchanged, but to cut a long story short I got in and drove off before he could write the "ticket" out and stick it to my windscreen.

 

The first and only correspondence I've received is the NTK in the post on the 8th October, but by that point it had already risen to £100 from £60. I've already sent my soft appeal back to UKCPS and requested a POPLA code. I know I can already easily challenge and win under GPEOL but I'm curious if the lack of a presence of a windscreen NTD will further sink their claim?

 

Cheers

CD

[DragonFly1967]

It's an interesting question, as I'm assuming that they're not relying on an ANPR capture, so a NTD should have been issued in line with the POFA 2012 and the guidelines for AOS members. Looking at the BPA guidance is says under 20.6,

To be an effective ‘Notice to Driver’ under POFA 2012, your parking charge notice must meet the requirements of Schedule 4. In particular:

• paragraph 7 (2) lists the contents you must include in the Notice to Driver

• paragraph 7(4) sets out how and when the Notice to Driver is to be delivered, including the requirement that the notice must be given before the vehicle has been removed from the car park and while it is stationary the POFA 2012 Sch 4, goes on to elaborate... "by affixing it to the vehicle or by handing it to a person appearing to be in charge of the vehicle."

• paragraph 7(5) defines what information must be provided about arrangements to resolve disputes and complaints, including arrangements about an independent appeal.

 

The interesting part is the bit I've highlighted, although this does seem to be covered in 20.9 which says

Or, if you were unable to issue a parking charge notice while the driver was present, perhaps because you use ANPR or camera equipment to monitor the car park, you may want to issue a parking charge notice by post.

 

So I guess that covers them for eventualities where the driver drives away before a ticket can be issued or affixed to the vehicle.

 

The actual timings might come into play here, as they haven't been able to issue a NTD, and they'd have known that at the time, I'm wondering if it would have reverted to the 28 day rule (POFA Sch 4. Para 8, Sub Paras 4b & 5), where they should have sent a NTK within 28 days, and not the 33 days that it seems to have taken. Or even 14 days, as no NTD was given (POFA Sch 4. Para 9, Sub Paras 4b & 5)

 

Actual dates will be important here. You say the parking 'incident' took place on 5th Sep. When was the notice that you received in the post actually dated? And if you still have the envelope, is it postmarked?

[Cardiff Devil]

Cheers Dragonfly, most interesting reading. The centre car park is not ANPR equipped, you take a ticket at the entry barrier, and get it validated when you make a purchase at one of the centre's outlets before leaving, so in other words it's free for users of the centre. If you're not using the centre there's a pay machine outside which you can use, although it's generally cheaper to go and buy a bag of crisps in one of the bars to get your ticket validated.

 

No, I no longer have the envelope that the NTK came in. I believe the notice was dated 7th October but I'll need to double check (the notice itself is in a drawer at my office, while I'm at home today). Of course it's a template letter which states that I had missed the 14 day window to pay the reduced charge of £60, as set out in the terms and conditions "listed on the ticket which was affixed to my vehicle".

 

On another note, I was there again on Friday night, and saw the same Orangutan fix a sticker to a white van that was parked in one of the disabled bays, he photographed the vehicle from all angles including a closeup of the NTD affixed to the windscreen, so presumably they are told to do this as proof that a ticket was attached, in case someone claims to not have been given one.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Cardiff Devil
Added some bits

[DragonFly1967]

And does your NTK in that case, include the photographic proof (or a link to see such proof) that a ticket was attached to your vehicle?

 

I'm also assuming, based on what you said above, that you took a ticket, and had it validated by making some kind of purchase?

[Cardiff Devil]

There was no photographic proof of any kind on the NTK, nor was there any link to a website where you can view said images.

 

That's right, I went into the centre with my daughter who was meeting some school friends to go to the cinema. I paid for her ticket at the desk myself and got my ticket validated in the process.

[renegadeimp]

Just use popla. UKCPS are the laughing stock of the PPC's. They make so many mistakes, its a wonder ANYONE takes them seriously.

[DragonFly1967]

So to sum up then...

 

You were never given a NTD, and there is no evidence that a NTD was ever affixed to the vehicle or handed to the driver.

The NTK has arrived out of time however you look at it, by breaching either the 14 day or 28 day rule as it didn't arrive until 33 days after the 'parking incident'.

The NTK doesn't include any evidence as prescribed by the POFA 2012.

And you had a validated parking ticket to park there anyway.

 

That should make for a rather interesting POPLA appeal, never mind GPEOL they've fallen down at so many hurdles it's almost comical.

[Cardiff Devil]

No worries, I already have my POPLA appeal written out and ready to go. I'm not worried about this shower of unwiped arses in the slightest, just wondering how I can make things as difficult as possible for them.

 

The best thing about this change in the procedure is that you can include all kinds of funny stuff in your appeal to them. When I wrote to them I commented that they'd have more chance of success by taking me to court for breaching the Misuse of Teaspoons Act 1976.

 

When I revisited the centre on Friday night, it crossed my mind to park in the disabled area again, or to park across two spaces to get another NTK, and cost them an extra £27 at POPLA.

[DragonFly1967]

If you want to make things a little more uncomfortable for them, complain to the BPA about one of their members breaching the terms of their CoP for AOS members and ask what they're going to do about it, and also complain to the DVLA about a BPA AOS member breaching the terms of the KADOE agreement and ask them the same question.

 

The email address for the DVLA complaints is [email protected]

 

It won't really achieve anything, but if you copy UKCPS in on both of the emails, it's guaranteed to make them squirm a little which is always nice.

[vinny47]

So to sum up then...

 

You were never given a NTD, and there is no evidence that a NTD was ever affixed to the vehicle or handed to the driver.

The NTK has arrived out of time however you look at it, by breaching either the 14 day or 28 day rule as it didn't arrive until 33 days after the 'parking incident'.

The NTK doesn't include any evidence as prescribed by the POFA 2012.

And you had a validated parking ticket to park there anyway.

 

That should make for a rather interesting POPLA appeal, never mind GPEOL they've fallen down at so many hurdles it's almost comical.

 

 

Had my first PPC invoice for a few years and my first since the game changed (the last couple I had were in early 2012 which I used to just ignore). I parked at the Red Dragon Centre in Cardiff briefly on September 5th to drop my daughter off at the cinema. As I was only dropping off I stopped in a disabled bay. Came back out of the centre 5 minutes later to find UKCPS's pet Orangutan taking a picture of the front of my car. A few words were exchanged, but to cut a long story short I got in and drove off before he could write the "ticket" out and stick it to my windscreen.

The first and only correspondence I've received is the NTK in the post on the 8th October, but by that point it had already risen to £100 from £60. I've already sent my soft appeal back to UKCPS and requested a POPLA code. I know I can already easily challenge and win under GPEOL but I'm curious if the lack of a presence of a windscreen NTD will further sink their claim?

Cheers

CD

 

 

 

I think you have missed some keypoint's from the op original post He didn't have a Validated parking ticket to park in a disabled bay which is the reason why the ticket was issued . The op stated as he was only dropping off as he felt it wasn't an issue to drop off in a disabled bay he though he was depriving disabled people from parking But it was more than dropping off as he left the car to go into the centre that isn't dropping off that's parking in a disabled bay. dropping off is stopping the vehicle letting someone out and then driving off

Is this forum is now supporting non disabled members depriving disabled people from parking in disabled bays

[DragonFly1967]

I think you have missed some keypoint's from the op original post He didn't have a Validated parking ticket to park in a disabled bay which is the reason why the ticket was issued . The op stated as he was only dropping off as he felt it wasn't an issue to drop off in a disabled bay he though he was depriving disabled people from parking But it was more than dropping off as he left the car to go into the centre that isn't dropping off that's parking in a disabled bay. dropping off is stopping the vehicle letting someone out and then driving off

Is this forum is now supporting non disabled members depriving disabled people from parking in disabled bays

 

Nope, I don't think I've missed anything. Disabled bays in a private car park are just lines on the ground. Legally, they mean nothing.

 

As for whether or not this forum is supporting non disabled people depriving disabled people from parking is disabled bays, I'd say not. But what this forum doesn't do, and neither do I, is judge people. The site is, and always has been, about advice without casting judgement.

[Cardiff Devil]

Cheers again DF. FYI the date of the alleged "offence" was the 5th September and the NTK is dated 7th October. So they're out of time then?

 

Vinny: Not that I have to justify my actions to you, but there were about 15 disabled spaces free when I parked. I did so knowing I was going into the centre, albeit for a few minutes. There were still 15 disabled bays free when I returned to my car 10 minutes later, so in other words I didn't stop anyone parking there. Plus, for all you know I might actually hold a disabled badge and may have simply neglected to display it. However as Dragonfly correctly stated above, disabled spaces on private land are just nicely painted bits of tarmac, with no legal backing at all. I could park horizontally across three disabled bays if I wanted to and although it'd be a bit of a daft thing to do, there's naff all these idiot parking companies can legally do about it. So what's the view like from that high horse?

[vinny47]

Vous prenez mon espace: prenez mon handicap

Disabled parking bays should be used by people with a genuine disability, who are displaying a genuinely needed badge. Anyone abusing the bays should have their vehicles clamped and be issued with a hefty fine also.

They are simply lazy, ignorant and selfish!

[armadillo71]

Vous prenez mon espace: prenez mon handicap

Disabled parking bays should be used by people with a genuine disability, who are displaying a genuinely needed badge. Anyone abusing the bays should have their vehicles clamped and be issued with a hefty fine also.

They are simply lazy, ignorant and selfish!

 

Both of which are currently illegal regarding private land...

[ericsbrother]

Back to the point in hand, the company is timed out for claiming anything via either para 8 or 9 of the POFA so you can tell them to get lost. tell them that this is your appeal against their stupid and false claim and you require a POPLA number so you can futher embarrass them.

Dont try and justify or mitigate anything, just a short sharp response and let them pay good money to get nowhere if they wish.

[DragonFly1967]

Vous prenez mon espace: prenez mon handicap

Disabled parking bays should be used by people with a genuine disability, who are displaying a genuinely needed badge. Anyone abusing the bays should have their vehicles clamped and be issued with a hefty fine also.

They are simply lazy, ignorant and selfish!

 

Yawn!

 

Qui sine peccato est vestrum, primus in illam lapidem mittat.

 

 

Go with what ericsbrother has said above. They've not got a leg to stand on, so you might as well knock the chair out from under them as well

[ericsbrother]

i dont think Vinny is a troll, they are knowledgeable about other matters but this is not in their field.

[DragonFly1967]

i dont think Vinny is a troll, they are knowledgeable about other matters but this is not in their field.

 

OK, I'll accept that. And I also accept that morally (at least), someone that isn't entitled to park in a disabled bay shouldn't. However, suggesting that someone should be "fined" or worse still "clamped", is sure to rub people up the wrong way and make them think that they are just being baited.

[Cardiff Devil]

Good morning, what's this in my mailbox?

 

Looks like my sternly worded appeal worked. I'm actually quite surprised since a couple of years ago, I never would have imagined that these clowns would allow an appeal. Although I suppose now that they're getting repeatedly shafted at POPLA, it's a kind of damage limitation for them.

 

A gesture of goodwill though? How nice of them, how philanthropic...

 

I'm actually a bit disappointed that they folded at the first hurdle though. I was looking forward to putting them under the cosh at POPLA. Oh well, there's always another day..

[DragonFly1967]

This gesture of goodwill, I wonder if it was their goodwill, or yours

 

Good result none the less though. Well done for standing up to them.

[honeybee13]

Well done CD I've amended your thead title.

 

HB

[ericsbrother]

gesture of goodwill means they dont have to admit that they are in any way ever wrong or you could possibly be right. Still, the result is the same, they withdrew their claim that you owed them money and really it is an admission that you dont owe money just because they want to say so.

[renegadeimp]

Rather dont want to, than dont have to

 

Just a get out when companies know they are very wrong, but still try and push the blame elsewhere.