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Hi Guys

 

Yet another hard time my family is going through please bear with me when reading this really need help

 

My daughter is a HCA at the local hospital she has been there 10 months. On 2nd of October my daughter (who I will call S) and another HCA were taken into the office and told a patients family had made a complaint that one of them "pushed her" they both denied this and also said neither of them had seen the other one do it they both wrote statements this all allegedly happened on 28th Sept neither S or the other HCA wasn't told till 2.10.S asked the ward sister should I go in to the patient again? Ward sister said yes see if she is uncomfortable around you luckily S didn't take that stupid advice she didn't tend to the patient again as she went on annual leave and the patient went home during her leave

 

Should also mention that S told her ward sister that patient was confused to which ward sister replied she seems "compus mentus" to me however during that night the patient had hallucinated cockroaches in her room and the handover sheets state increased confusion due to the medication she was on S still has these handover notes

 

On the Friday before S returned to work on the Monday she received a phone call from her ward sister asking her to go in Monday as they needed to talk to her about the patients complaint when S arrived on the Monday she was taken in the office and told that a Agency nurse had told them that she said "just fake them up" with regards to patient observations although she had been told on the phone by her ward sister this was to do with patient complaint it turned out it was completely unrelated and was in fact another accusation S explained she never said this nor ever would couldn't understand why it had been said and could barely remember the agency staff on shift that night from the meeting S got the impression this was sorted and closed

 

S worked a couple of shifts on the ward nothing else happened until Tuesday this week S had worked Monday on the ward No problems

 

Tuesday evening her day off S received a phone call from the Director of Nursing telling her she was to attend a informal meeting with just her and the matron she was not to wear uniform and she was as of that day being taken off the ward and would not be working with patients

 

Now here is where it gets confusing please bear with me. On July 5th S worked a night shift with a "bank" nurse as soon as their shift started the bank nurse told S that she was good friends with her ward sister as they used to work on a department together S has always felt her ward sister didn't like her so she didn't really have too much contact with her friend this shift was a overtime shift S agreed to do during her annual leave she returned to work one day the next week she is unsure which day as soon as she entered the ward she was told by many people that a member of staff was "slagging off" the ward sister to her friend and she had rang and told her about it on the Monday

 

Since S knew she was the only member of staff that night she had a feeling it was her they were referring to so on her break she text me to ask my advice however in her confusion upset and worry she inadvertently sent the text message meant for me to her ward sister it read " ******* thinks I have called her a back stabbing bitch sigh this is going to be a long day" she then immediately realised her mistake and approached her ward sister as soon as she was able to

 

S explained to ward sister that she had accidently sent her a text message and that she was aware of the rumours that she had been told and she wanted her to know it wasn't true the ward sister said the matron is going to come down and speak to us both about it the matron told S what had been said never asked S if it was true just wanted to know if she was comfortable on the ward and did she feel she could approach ward sister if she needed to S replied yes to both questions although S was never asked whether the rumours were true S informed them more than once that she did not say anything to anyone about ward sister

 

On or around 31 st July S received a letter stating that they had all had a chat that they hoped she knew they were there to help blah blah that seemed to end the matter

 

Now 2 days ago the friend of the ward sister who S worked with in July contacted the Director of Nursing and stated that during that one night shift with my daughter back in July S had been rough with patients and had spoken inappropriately in front of them this accusation was never mentioned in July it was reported on 10th October S had only ever worked with this bank nurse once never before never since I doubt she could pick S out in a line up given that I believe S is being bullied and victimised by her ward sister these are the allegations as written in the letter

 

1.On 2nd oct 2014 you allegedly commented to a agency nurse that you would "just fake them up" referring to patient observations

2. On 28th September 2014 you allegedly rough handled and shouted at a patient who was incontinent whilst in their bed

3. It has been reported that on the 5th July 2014 you allegedly made inappropriate comments and were verbally abusive in front of a patient .It has also been alleged they you were rough with patients when providing care and concerns have been raised with regards to the level of compassion in the care you have provided to patients on ward 23

 

She has been taken off her ward she is now doing admin in another dept they told her they considered suspending her but decided against it but they kept reminding her how serious this was needless to say S denies everything strenuously and has written her statement denying all accusations and handed it in this morning she has a meeting on 24th Oct to discuss her statement

 

She is in the union now but only joined yesterday so they can't help her with this I really need help this is all hearsay I have spoke to Acas they have advised us to make a complaint about the ward sister and her bank nurse friend I find it unbelieveable that she was allowed to make a complaint 3 months after a alleged incident and they are running with it? We wrote in my daughters statement that we feel this should be struck off because of the length of time and also asked why this person didn't report this alleged treatment of patients when she reported to her friend that S was "slagging her off" looks like she is on her own in this so please please if you can offer any advice we really do need it

 

Thanks so much for all help in advance sorry for any spelling mistakes please ask questions if you need to thanks

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Sorry I should add the other HCA involved in the patient complaint is still on the ward never been spoken to and also the bank nurse was reported that night in July for rough handling of patients by a now retired nurse I believe that the ward sister and her friend think it was S that reported her the on,y thing I don't understand is why now

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That's a really long story!

 

Wht specifically are you asking for advice on? Right now it's an investigation, I think, so "sit tight"

 

I would not put in a greivance, it'll look petty and annoy people.

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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Hi Emmzzi

 

Thanks for reply

 

Sorry for length of post I suppose I have many questions

 

1. Can a person be bought up on investigation like this on 3 accounts of hearsay?

2. The meeting to discuss my daughters statement is 24th so they can investigate what are they investigating? And how can they prove hearsay?

3. Does a person going to DON 3 months after a alleged incident not look petty?

4. Why should they be allowed to do that with No repercussions?

5. I think it is evident my daughter is being bullied by her ward sister even to the point that I think she has asked for her friends input is there not a law against this?

 

I think it is unfair for people to try and ruin a 23 year olds career she has done care since leaving school previously working in a care home for 4 years with no problems I am sorry if this long story is coming across as petty to you I just don't like bullying.

 

Thanks

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1. Can a person be bought up on investigation like this on 3 accounts of hearsay? - well, yes. They are duty bound to investigate all allegations of istreatment of patients. If it was you wh was ill, you'd expect that.

 

2. The meeting to discuss my daughters statement is 24th so they can investigate what are they investigating? And how can they prove hearsay? - They don't need to prove it, they look at balance of probabilities.

 

3. Does a person going to DON 3 months after a alleged incident not look petty? - yes. That will affect the balanc of probabiities.

 

4. Why should they be allowed to do that with No repercussions? - well, there might be. Or there might not. But the key thing here is that in healthare, the employer HAS to investigate, even if they think it is all rubbish.

 

5. I think it is evident my daughter is being bullied by her ward sister even to the point that I think she has asked for her friends input is there not a law against this? - yes. But raising it *only now* when there is an investigation will not help at all. She should have raised it at the first instance. Best to let it lie for now.

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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Hi Emmzzi

 

Thanks again in the last hour my daughter has obtained a union rep so hopefully this will make a difference in her defence I don't think she could have raised a issue about her ward sister before she enrolled her friend in helping her get my daughter the sack but hopefully it will get sorted

 

Thanks

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A suspect a chilled mum who isn't supporting conspiracy theories would also help a lot.....? I know it's horrible, but can you try and relax a bit? No point worrying yet. it's good she now has a rep.

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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  • 1 month later...

Hi just read your Story about your daughter. I am a psychiatric nurse and work in an all female ward both staff and patients. Sadly the nature of nursing today is working in defensive practice. I would say that the element of confusion and hallucinations will have a bearing on the allegation made, that is not to say it didn't happen, but sometimes families can be more difficult when they really don't know the truth of a situation and can often allay their own emotions and anxieties on staff including their own guilt for not looking after their loved one properly themselves. Often families can be more challenging and can get in the way of caring creating all sorts of issues that causes a lot of nurses to leave the profession because of their wrongful allegations. Often ive found some of those that do complain are the ones who have complex issues themselves! We are on occasions accused by patients who have hallucinations and delusions, at the easier end of complaints we can be accused by patients of poisoning their food. That doesn't help your daughter though. One thing is that we ensure we record everything, any comments made by the patient throughout the shift, doesn't have to be lengthy sometimes using quoted sentences. This gives a flavour of the mental state of the patient at the time. You daughter should try and write down everything she remembers of that night incl what care she gave, and do this in her recorded notes at the end of each shift to cover herself. Was any body mapping done, did the patient suffer bruises and was any incident report completed, this is normal protocol by the nurse in charge even if it is days after. Obviously it is a serious allegation that should have been acknowledged somewhere at the time.

II'm always surprised that nurses who care for people can often have attitudes allaying their own stresses and anxieties on one another, often the weaker member of the caring team, it just adds to the stresses and pressure of the job. Sounds to me that it will probably go away and in the meantime your daughter should be glad she is away from that ward if that is how it is, she should have asked for some supervision to talk to someone openly about the matter, did she not have a supervisor who would be in her corner.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Guys

 

Seems such a long long time since I started this thread I wonder if anyone will be shocked to learn this is still ongoing?

 

As I stated my daughter has a union rep the investigation meeting took place on 3rd November and we waited and waited and waited making many phone calls chasing up a decision being told by the matron her last week off the ward would be 4 weeks ago now my daughter is still off the ward on one occasion the matron said I will ring you Monday with a decision and went on annual leave for 2 weeks so she knew she wouldn't be ringing on the Monday when she said it

 

Thursday 18th December last week!! She was told to attend a meeting at matrons office just her and matron to be told after the matron forgot and was reminded why she was there that she is being taken to diciplinary my daughter has recieved no letter stating this no reason why we know that the patient who made the complaint has sadly died my daughter was told verbally by HR that that allegation is dropped so they are taking her to diciplinary for 2 people telling lies about her she has now got all this worry over Xmas been told the meeting won't be till middle of Jan at the earliest by then this saga will have dragged on 3 months

 

Any thoughts?

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Sorry just need to add the Hca who was originally reported by the patient with my daughter has been allowed to change her statement and has said my daughter did in fact do what she is accused of when my daughter challenged them about her being allowed to change it they said her first statement didn't count as it was written on the wrong paper and was a "reflective log"

 

And the other thing the ward sister has also lied and told them that she did in fact talk to my daughter back in July about her alleged roughy handling of paitents but that isn't true and the letter my daughter recieved on 31.7 makes no mention of it either

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1. Should have it in writing that it is going to disciplinary and the exact reason. Her rep will know all of this.

2. Check timeframe for dealing with investigations as if it is out of process this can be used (unfortunately I don't know what the process is in hospitals) but they will have a timeframe for each step and as the patient has died since their statement cannot be cross examined ( If they made one? )

3. As advised in earlier threads the lateness of the allegations can be addressed as nurses are duty bound to report incidences immediately not after the facts. IE days/ months later if that's the case, then the nurse has failed in their duty.

4. How long after did the other HCA re do the statement?

5. As the other HCA was also reported why did they not receive the same treatment as your daughter or where they investigated and cleared?

6. Retrospective in my book is a get out to cover the fact that the person has changed their statement, and to me brings into question the reason for the change? Makes no odd's what paperwork it was done on it was a statement. if it does make a difference then that is a failure of the investigation process and should be thrown out and inadmissible ( as I see it ) was your daughters statement done on the "wrong paperwork" If so has she been requested to change it over??

7. The other HCA has remained on the ward and so may have also been influenced to change their statements.

8. Has your daughter ever been accused of similar actions If no then this needs to be highlighted.

9. Who from HR told your daughter the case was dropped? This may be hearsay, however worth seeing why your daughter was wrongly advised?

10. You say that the patient was recorded as having hallucinations the night of the alleged incident this can be highlighted as investigations and outcomes are generally based on probabilities in the event of no clear substantial evidence.

11. Did the patient have a Urinary track infection? As this can cause hallucinations I Believe ( my wife's a mental Health nurse and deals with these types of things)

12. I note that there are different dates above for different accusations do these relate to the same person July, Sept and Oct If so, why are they split over different months rather than isolated to the one day?

13. If the matron states that she spoke with your daughter in July re rough handling was this recorded in her notes? If not, then why not as the matron is duty bound to record everything in case they are called up at future dates to answer question to the care complaints commission or a coroner ETC. If it was not recorded, then it is her word against your daughters.

 

They are just some thought, but please read the signature below

All information given above is purely my own opinion. Some based on personal experience. Where backed up by case files I will make that known. However, until then please take all of what I say with a pinch of salt and accept it only as a reference. :madgrin::madgrin::madgrin:

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Hi billathome

 

Thanks so much for your reply I have just got in from work but I will answer your q,s in detail tomorrow I will then also have a chance to check I have the right facts with my daughter thanks again really appreciate you reading my post ☺️

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hi meg&mog,

 

Is she being paid while working?

 

Can she write to them explaining the continued suspension is causing stress and ask for a firm date for the final hearing?

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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I would still writ the letter explaining it is causing stress..... unless she is happy with a letter stuffing job?

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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Hi Billathome

 

Thanks again for your reply we really do appreciate your reading this and asking questions I can not emphasise enough how sloppy this has been and how badly my daughter has been treated I would just first like to say that we completely understand things have to be investigated especially in the work my daughter does but when you hear some of the things that has and continues to happen here it is getting very ridiculous please please bear with me for this long post I am so anxious to tell someone the facts here and have them understand how bad this is so thanks again I will now do my best to answer your questions

 

1. My daughter was given a bunch of paperwork describing the policies and procedures when it comes to this sort of thing back in oct when she was initially given the investigation or allegation letter I have asked her to check it today and see if any guidance timelines are listed there so I will let you know

 

2. Allegation #1 was alleged to have taken place on 28th Sept my daughter wasn't told about it or asked about it till 2nd oct she was asked along with the other HCA who was accused they both wrote a statement on that day saying what had happened which was nothing briefly my daughter was filling in a property book after the death of a patient a agency nurse and the other HCA entered the patients room the agency nurse came out and told my daughter to assist the othe HCA in cleaning the patient up she had had a large bowel movement my daughter finished filling in the book as it is a legal document probably took her 1.5/2 mins during this time the other HCA was alone in patients room my daughter then went into patients room and assisted the other HCA in cleaning patient up and making her comfortable the patient stated in her statement that we believe was written by her daughter that a nurse entered her room after my daughter and the other HCA had left and had to clean her up as she had bowel movement on her legs there was no record of any other nurse on the ward that night either on the rota or on the chart that has to be signed when a patient is dealt with they however have spent 6 weeks trying to track down this mystery nurse the patient was able to describe my daughter and the other HCA but she was not able to describe the mystery nurse we believe my daughter was the mystery nurse we believe that the agency nurse and the other HCA entered her room the agency nurse then told my daughter to assist when my daughter did so the patient did in fact have bowel movement all over there legs we believe in her confusion the patient believes she was left in this state for longer that she actually was

 

3. Both my daughter and the other HCA wrote statements on 2nd oct regarding patient complaint both explained what happened both stated the other did nothing untoward towards the patient the other HCA changed her statement we do not know when my daughter was asked to attend the ward she was not allowed on to type up her statement she had already written however in the 2nd oct she wrote a statement only about the patient complaint by the time she was asked to type it up she had 2 more allegations to face

 

3. As stated at the beginning we understand things need investigating my daughter was accused of saying she " just fakes them up" when it comes to patient obs she was accused of saying this on 2nd oct however the agency nurse she allegedly said it to didn't report it till 9th oct and she has had no repercussion for not reporting it earlier to our knowledge this was allegedly said in a day shift with the ward sister feet away just after my daughter had wrote a statement about a patient complaint

 

4.we are unsure as to when the other HCA changed her statement y daughter knows they were written on the 2nd oct she was told she had changed hers at the investigation meeting on 3rd November

 

5.my daughter asked what was happening with regards to the other HCA who we know is already on a warning she was assured everyone is being treated the same however to the beat of our knowledge the other HCA has not been investigated and in still on the ward to this day my daughter was told her was going further because she had 3 allegations to answer

 

6. Yes my daughter was made to type up her statement approx 2 weeks after being took off the ward the only reason given was that it needed typing up

 

7.the other HCA has stated to another colleague she was "coerced" into changing her statement

 

8.my daughter has never been accused of anything like this before

 

9.my daughter was told by the HR lady who was present at the investigation meeting that they could not take the patient complaint any further as they could not find the mystery nurse I mentioned earlier we know this patient has died however my daughter who probably shouldn't be hasn't been told the lady has passed away

 

10.my daughter still has hand over notes from the night of the alledged incident with patient it states that she is confused due to a drug she was receiving due to brain cancer my daughter also has hand over notes from a few days prior stating the same thing however at the investigation meeting they said they had investigated if the patient was confused and she wasn't

 

11.we do not know if the patient had a urinary tract infection but she did have a catheter

 

12.there was only 1 complaint made by a patient that is the sept one that my daughter was told about in oct the July incident is a bank nurse who is a good friend of my daughters ward sister my daughter hardly spoke to her all evening and for a reason we do not know she has made allegations of my daughter called her ward sister a b**** and being rough with patient and talking inappropriately in front of patients back in July my daughter was asked about calling the ward sister a b**** no mention of patients was made at that time she was asked if she was comfortable and happy on the ward and did she feel she could go to her ward sister for help my daughter said yes and denied making the statement she was accused of that was the end of it she recieved a letter she was told would remain in her file stating they had spoken and that was the end of it no mention of patients in that letter either unfortunately my daughter doesn't have her original copy but she did tell the investigation to check her file the ward sister is now saying she spoke to my daughter about patients back in July and the matron who was then in charge has since retired so it is her word against my daughters

 

No notes were taken in July with regards to patients because she wasn't spoken to about patients but again nothing is being bought against anyone that has lied or failed to report alleged offences my daughter allegedly commited

 

The union rep in the investigation meeting asked if they had proof my daughter "faked" up obs they said no he said if they did this sort of thing to everyone accused of talking about someone behind thier back they would have no staff still it has gone further

 

The matron said it was a HR decision based on statements and interviews they have conducted as she has recieved no letter yet to state what they are diciplining her for exactly we have no clue if the patient complaint is being carried on or if it is just based on 2 people's lies that worked with my daughter on 1 occasion once my daughter has in fact seen the person from the July allegations in another part of the hospital she had no idea who my daughter was strange considering the lengthy statement she wrote that my daughter caught a glimpse of at the investigation meeting stating she "challenged" my daughter several times for her behaviour

 

I believe her ward sister is behind it all she has told people no good to my daughter I know but she has told people she wants her off the ward and after the investigation meeting the union rep said to my daughter someone has a knife out for you obviously my daughter will not be able to work with these people again but she will clear her name and then file grievances against everyone that lied about her it is all so unfair

 

I am so sinceley sorry for the length of this post please please ask if anything is unclear and thanks again for all your help

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At this time I anticipate that the investigation needed will take 4 weeks, if the period of investigation exceeds four weeks I will write to you every four weeks after that to confirm the anticipated timescale for completion of the investigation. You will be informed as soon as possible of the outcome of the investigation, if the conclusion of the investigation is that the matters need to be considered at a disciplinary hearing you will be advised in advance of the date and time and will be given documentation from the investigation in order to prepare for the hearing

 

This is what is stated in the paperwork my daughter recieved back in oct the 14th NONE of this has happened she has had to chase up every update her self she has had weekly meeting with the ward sister who she was told early on not to discuss anything with so she sat for 10 mins listening to her chatting about her life and the weather since being told it is going to diciplinary she had to meet with the matron on a different ward the first scheduled meeting is next weds

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That's quite a long ramble... To condense, changed dutes have been dragging on pending investigation outcome and contact has not been made to keep your daughter updated as promised.

 

There's a meeting due... A week on Wed? Or tomorrow? A general update meeting?

 

If this doesn't happen or there is no update write a letter, but keep it short. Just state how long on alternate duties, and ask for a timetable of how and when this will be resolved one way or the other. send to boss cc h.r.

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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Hi Emmzi

 

Unfortunately the "ramble" is the facts and in order for people to understand I have to state the facts the meeting next Wednesday is supposed to be a "how you getting on we will keep you buttered up and pretend we care meeting" and yes that is due to take place a week on wednesday

 

Thanks

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They've no interest in buttering her up, she has no power here.

 

What outcome does she want from that meeting?

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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I never said she had any power but she hasn't done anything wrong and this has dragged on long enough she knows nothing will come from the meeting next Wednesday and she isn't expecting anything to I was stating the facts as they are.

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Sorry for the late response.

 

1. Ok, this mystery nurse the patient said came in who you think was your daughter two ways to play that one. 1. If she wasn't confused who was this mystery nurse that no one can track down? 2. Could the mystery nurse the patient said came in have been enter your daughters name here _____?

 

2. Has anyone stated they heard your daughter say any of the stuff to the nurse who made the allegations? If not which i'm assuming that is hearsay and inadmissible unless it can be verified by an independent witness.

 

3. She needs to call the other HCA's change of statement into question and insist that as the statement was changed what leads them to assume that

1. The first statement wasn't a true account 2. The HCA wasn't cohersed into changing her statement. 3. By accepting that the 2nd statement is in fact a true account your daughter cannot have a fair, unbiased meeting so the statement should be disregarded on the grounds that there is doubt over the truth.

 

4. It is claimed the patient was not confused Your daughter has the notes which say factually that she was.

 

5. The nurse has to do notes within the shift and at the end of the shift was anything recorded at the time to say the patient had been un-cared for treated inappropriately? If not, then it would stand that if the nurse has actually written fully detailed and accurate notes so are they calling the nurses competencies into question if not how is your daughter being treated as fairly as others?

 

6. Two people were accused of inappropriate behavior, however, only one was moved of the ward how is that treating each equally irrespective of how many unsubstantiated accusations were made against your daughter they both were accused of (A) so why move one and not both?

 

7. Why, if only a few people were involved in this investigation and a statement was given by the patient has it taken so long to get to this stage.

 

8. You say the patient's statement was written by her daughter how do we not know that the daughter didn't influence her mother and tell them if the patient was so sure of the facts tell them to ask about the mystery nurse again as your daughter feels she may have got her confused with a fictional nurse as she went in the room after the other HCA and the nurse.

 

That's some things for her rep to be getting on with that's what I would be concentrating on.

 

Regards, Bill

All information given above is purely my own opinion. Some based on personal experience. Where backed up by case files I will make that known. However, until then please take all of what I say with a pinch of salt and accept it only as a reference. :madgrin::madgrin::madgrin:

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whereas I'd be concentrating on seeing if it was actually going to hearing - this could be a lot of a fankle and getting wound up for nothing!

 

next wed should only be about "when is the hearing", not the evidence... one step at a time!

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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