N245 process and time scales ?

[apc01]

Hi all,

 

Delighted to be here. I have been involved with credit card and loan companies totalling about £80K, numerous DCA's etc for over a decade now and not been collected on yet, and will be happy to contribute here in future with my experiences etc.

 

I do have another situation for which I would appreciate advice.

 

Myself and my son jointly just got a CCJ against us for what the claimant claimed were fake goods but in fact were genuine - we were basically ripped off to the tune of a total of nearly £9K including expenses.

 

The judge ordered full payment in 14 days.

 

I have zero capital and a very meagre income of a few hundred pounds per month to live on - my daily food budget is just £1 for example.

 

My son has zero income and zero savings.

 

I am filing N245 forms for each of us offering a very minimal monthly payment for me - which I cannot afford, and zero for my son as he has no income.

 

Questions:

 

1. How long does the entire N245 process usually take?

 

2. Can the claimant pursue enforcement while the N245 are being processed?

 

I am assuming that the claimant will refuse my offer, it will go back to the court who will presumably set an affordable monthly payment which they claimant will probably reject and file for a redetermination.

 

If it is too much I would file for a redetermination.

 

My concern is that I am shortly going to be abroad for 2 months and not in a position to process any paperwork, although my son will receive it.

 

I am particularly concerned that the claimant might use an HCEO while I am away. The only asset of value is my car and that does not have much value, but I still need it.

 

Any insight in to time scales for this process to grind through the court system would be much appreciated so I am aware of what I am up against.

 

Thanks very much.

[AndyOrch]

Hi apc and welcome to CAG

 

Questions:

 

"1. How long does the entire N245 process usually take? Depends on your local county court 3/4 weeks

 

2. Can the claimant pursue enforcement while the N245 are being processed? They could if they can execute it in time...but that would take longer than your N245 application if they did you can also use the N245 to stay execution

 

I am assuming that the claimant will refuse my offer, it will go back to the court who will presumably set an affordable monthly payment which they claimant will probably reject and file for a redetermination.Possible

 

If it is too much I would file for a redetermination.No you apply to vary N245 ...you cant re-determinate on a forthwith judgment

 

My concern is that I am shortly going to be abroad for 2 months and not in a position to process any paperwork, although my son will receive it.If the judgment is in joint names your Son can sign and process

 

I am particularly concerned that the claimant might use an HCEO while I am away. The only asset of value is my car and that does not have much value, but I still need it.Move it away from the home whilst away ...pref at a friends

 

Any insight in to time scales for this process to grind through the court system would be much appreciated so I am aware of what I am up against.

 

Thanks very much.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[apc01]

Hi Andy,

 

Thanks for the excellent an most helpful replies - much appreciated.

 

One final question - will the court set an affordable monthly payment based exclusively on means to pay based on the submitted financial data on the N245, or could they refuse to set monthly payments based on the fact that it would take too long to pay back, e.g. 30 years?

 

Also - you mention it would take them too long to recruit a HCEO - how long does that process usually take considering that at the moment the case is in the county court.

 

Thanks again.

Edited October 1, 2014 by apc01

[AndyOrch]

The court will initially present your proposal to the claimant for consideration....so try to make it realistic...they can accept or reject...the court then has the power to set it it from the information provided...if the claimant is still unhappy they can make redetermination...but its very rare.

 

If the payments set appear to be unrealistic and will take too long for the claimant to recover they have an option of securing the debt by way of a charging/restriction order placed on your property (if mortgaged) as security.

[apc01]

Thanks Andy. On my income of the low hundreds of pounds per month, house bills to pay and a food budget of £1 per day, my latitude to be realistic is seriously limited - I cannot afford anything. I am showing actual priority expenses on the N245 but no luxuries such as clothing etc whatsoever. I hope whoever decides the monthly payments will appreciate my situation.

 

One final question - my son has zero income, zero assets and a negative bank balance. Should he offer zero or a nominal £1 per month?

[AndyOrch]

As its a joint judgment (both names on the same judgment/number) then your application covers both of you...if his income is nil...put nil.

[apc01]

Thanks again Andy.

 

I am going to prepare the necessary forms to leave for my son to file while I am away in case the claimant enlists a HCEO in my absence.

 

Do I only need to file form N245 to suspend the warrant or should we file an N244 as well, or instead, for a hearing where we can present our payment case and delay proceedings further until I return?

[Ganymede]

If you can only afford £1 pcm and your son can afford zero then the most likely thing that will happen is that the Judge orders payment forthwith.

[apc01]

I am offering more than £1 per month. It is my understanding that it is a court clerk that sets the payments based upon the guidelines they have.

 

Nevertheless, we obviously cannot pay a forthwith payment - hence the N245 we are filing now - and why I am asking Andy what forms - N245/N244 I need to leave for my son to halt the proceedings and get another opportunity for variation/redetermination should a forthwith payment be ordered and the claimant employs a HCEO.

[AndyOrch]

Did you submit a defence the claim apc? Was the claim allocated out of Northampton to your local County Court? Or default judgement by Northampton?

[Ganymede]

I am offering more than £1 per month. It is my understanding that it is a court clerk that sets the payments based upon the guidelines they have.

 

Nevertheless, we obviously cannot pay a forthwith payment - hence the N245 we are filing now - and why I am asking Andy what forms - N245/N244 I need to leave for my son to halt the proceedings and get another opportunity for variation/redetermination should a forthwith payment be ordered and the claimant employs a HCEO.

 

Andy has said to relocate your car.

 

If you and your son have no assets then why worry about the HCEO?

 

How much are you going to offer?

[apc01]

Did you submit a defence the claim apc? Was the claim allocated out of Northampton to your local County Court? Or default judgement by Northampton?

 

Yes - we defended the action and it was elevated to the Fast Track for a full day open trial - which was interesting to say the least. We had an excellent defence with evidence, which I conducted myself, but the claimant had a barrister who was able to use all his experience and influence to get a ruling in the claimants favour with payment in 14 days - which is Monday.

[AndyOrch]

So just submit the N245 today...you have already lost 2 days....you dont really know if (when) they will try to execute further ...maybe in 3 weeks...I have known some go 5 years 11 months.

 

Andy

[apc01]

The court returned the N245 on the basis that "the judgement has not been set down by the court". I assumed that when the judge handed down the judgement - we were at the hearing - the judgement would be entered on that date.

 

Does this mean that the 14 days starts ticking from the date we receive official notification in the post as opposed to the date of the judgement was handed down? If it starts from the day the judgement was handed down then we have no way of varying it within the 14 days while awaiting official postal notification.

 

Also they state that even though it is one case number, both defendants would need to file N245's with two separate payments. I am confused about this. There is one judgement and two defendants. Can just one defendant file an N245 to vary the payment order and if so is only one set of financial data required? I would have thought they would want to see the financial data and therefore means to pay of both joint defendants?

 

Thanks again Andy.

[AndyOrch]

Yes wait until you actually receive the General Order or Judgment.As regards the two defendants sounds like a money making exercise...one claim number one judgment....but again wait until you receive notification....if the court has stated they want 2 then I suppose thats the format......never had to deal with joint defendants and variations.

 

Andy

[apc01]

Thanks Andy - I will phone the court and point out that there is only one judgement to vary. I assume I can attach the other financials on a separate sheet of paper.

 

Will also await the judgement in the post - it has been two weeks already - I assume the claimant cannot do anything until the judgement is official either, so all adds to delaying things

[Ganymede]

The Court is right.

 

Two Defendant's, need two applications to vary/redetermine.

[apc01]

Thanks - I am sure you are correct.

 

Makes no sense though in that if there is just one judgement and one of the defendants applied to vary, it would surely apply to the whole judgement unless they divided it in to two.

 

Does the same apply for an N245 suspension of warrant if there are two defendants? Surely if one defendant applied to suspend a warrant it would be suspended for both unless it can only be suspended for one defendant and executed on the other.

[Ganymede]

There are in effect two judgments. It's a joint and several one against each Defendant.

 

The CCJ can be enforced against either one of you, or both.

 

What if the Defendant's were separate companies or two people that weren't father and son?

[AndyOrch]

There are in effect two judgments. It's a joint and several one against each Defendant.

 

The CCJ can be enforced against either one of you, or both.

 

What if the Defendant's were separate companies or two people that weren't father and son?

 

Makes sense...so it has to be two of everything apc

[apc01]

It seems that way unfortunately.

 

Thank you both for all your help.

 

I am still waiting the notification of the judgement in the post. I am assuming our 14 days to pay or submit N245's begins from the date the official judgement entry and not when it was handed down 2 weeks ago, otherwise the claimant could try to enforce it and we cannot submit N245's to vary and stop it until it is entered and made official.

[AndyOrch]

Nothing to stop you now ...you have a claim number/date

[apc01]

As mentioned earlier in the thread, the court returned our N245's stating they could not be processed as "the judgement had not yet been set down in court" whatever that means. Also we have not received any notification by post.

[apc01]

Re-submitted the N245 forms and because my son has zero income, he made an offer of zero per month as suggested earlier in the thread.

 

The court returned the form stating he MUST make an offer to pay otherwise he will be liable for the whole amount - which is ludicrous.

 

So does he make a nominal offer of £1 per month?

[AndyOrch]

If its the only way to get the application accepted yes.How does he survive out of interest?