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2 PCN / Car Cloned??


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Hi,

 

I have been asked by my father in law to look into a problem that has just appeared.

 

He got home form work today to 2 parking notices dated April this year from a Hospital in Newcastle (a copy of one should be attached).

 

Now, we know that he is not at all liable for these charges as they relate to a hospital car park in Newcastle (he lives in Milton Keynes), the date of the first charge is 16th April, on this date he came to visit us in Wales and filled up in Milton Keynes on the way so trying to find receipts with the time on and they stayed for just under a week, he has bank statements etc to prove where he was for the week.

 

The second notice is for 23rd April, both he and the MIL were at work in Milton Keynes at the time and the car was in the work car park, he is checking if they still have records / camera images of the staff car park area as evidence.

 

Again, they have never visited Newcastle and there is no family link there either...

 

The only reason we can think of is that the car has been cloned, they have been to the local police station to report this so hopefully get a ref number. Next step is to inform the DVLA.

 

The first they heard of this is today, so 5 months after the incident, i thought they had to inform the owner a lot sooner than this?

 

What is the best way to approach Roxburgh? if we get a ref number from police etc do we need to give it to them?

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The important thing is telling the police/DVLA that the plate has been cloned.

 

 

PCN Parking services do not need to know about what has happened but you can add it if you wish.

Send a simple letter stating that the criteria for Schedule 4 of the Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 have not been met.

Therefore address all further correspondence to the driver of the vehicle at the time of the event.

 

 

(depending on whether you say what has happened, add)

I am under no obligation to name the driver of the vehicle.

 

 

This letter has been sent with proof of postage.

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Firstly, the PCN's you have posted at a totsal of 26Mb are a little large, consist of nothing more than has been seen here previously. They also contain detail that could allow your f-i-l to be identified. I suggest that you delete them as is and redacted anything that could be used to identify the case and reduce the file size before reposting them - if at all.

 

The document is entitled Notice to Registered Keeper which would seem to be an attempt to fulfil the Protection of Freedoms Act. The problem is that as the parking event occurred in April 2014 and the NtK ( which should be served between Day 28 and Day 56) isn't dated until September and therefore renders the document non-compliant.

 

The chances of the car actually having been cloned are near zero. However, the probability of an ANPR-misread or human error is far greater.

 

I therefore suggest that the get your f-i-l to respond as the keeper and send otherwise identical appeals to PCN Parking Services (which is the only part of the Roxburghe set-up that is continuing to operate) along the following lines:

 

PCN Parking Service

PO BO blah

Lavender Park Road

West Byfleet

 

Dear Sir

 

Re: PCN No XZXZXZXZX - Parking Solutions 24 Ltd

 

Following receipt of your Notice to Keeper dated XX September 2014 I wish to appeal the issue of the above notice in relation to an alleged parking event at the Royal Victoria Hospital, Newcastle on XX April 2014.

 

For the sake of clarity I am the registered keeper of the vehicle concerned and was at the time of the alleged event. However, there are no formal admissions as to the driver of the vehicle at the time alleged and nor will there be. Firstly, because such is the delay that I do not know and secondly because I am under no obligation to do so as a result of your/your client's having abjectly failed to comply with the requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2014. As a professional organisation this is something that you should know or ought to have known.

 

I appeal on the following grounds:

 

1. The alleged event did not occur. The vehicle was at all times in my constructive possession and I have secured evidence of the fact that at no time was the vehicle at the location alleged and nor was it anywhere in the vicinity.

 

2. Were the vehicle to have been used at the location alleged, which in any event is denied in the strongest terms, it would be my case that there could have been no contract breached, no contractual fee agreed and therefore no fee due to your clients on the basis that:

a). Your client lacks any or has insufficient proprietary or occupational rights or interest in the land concerned.

b). Your client does not have the authority to pursue charges.

c). The fee does not in any way represent a genuine pre-estimate of your client's or their principal's loss.

d). That in any event the signage does not comply with the requirements of the British Parking Association Approved Operators Scheme Code of Practice, Annexe B and that as a consequence no contract was or was capable of having been formed and no fee is due.

e). That, in the alternative, if it is your client's case that the demand made is by way of a contractual fee the signage makes it clear that the overriding intention in seeking to levy the fee is to deter parking and that as a consequence the charge is punitive and unenforceable at law and you and your client have no case.

3. Your demand therefore lacks any merit, is therefore unwarranted and speculative at best and should be withdrawn forthwith. If you do not do so and as no further correspondence will be entered into you, or your client, should promptly provide me with a POPLA appeal reference so that I may take the issue up with them direct. Save for a letter providing that reference any further communication written or otherwise whether from yourselves, your client or any other agents or assigns will be regarded as harassment.

 

Should you persist in these unwarranted demands you and your client will be put to the strictest proof in all regards and you should therefore consider yourselves on notice. You are advised to notify your client of this and should you have any doubt you should seek the advice of a qualified legal professional.

 

Yours faithfully

 

sytra's f-i-l

 

That should do the trick.

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I doubt it's been cloned, probably just someone has mis-read the plate number or keyed it into a computer wrong. I would just write back and state the vehicle wasn't there at the time recorded - please provide photographic evidence to the contrary.

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Hi,

 

Well the In laws did go to the police yesterday and have been given 2 crime refs, and also were advised to phone the fraud office which they did this morning.

 

The MIL called Roxburghe this morning and they say nothing has been passed to them, but on the payyoupcn site yesterday it said that they couldn't appeal and to conatct Rox as it had been referred to them. then by some miracle later today they are now both active on the payyourpcn site awaiting photo eveidence etc.

 

@Meekyou: We thought it could just be human error, but according to the site mentioned above it was seen by a parking attendant and ticket affixed on 2 separate occasions / dates, i wouldn't have thought "if" an attendant did see the car they would get the wrong reg no twice??

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Standard advice here is never to speak to the likes of Roxburghe (i.e. Debt collectors) but always keep things in writing! By all means write to the administrators although I doubt that they will care - they carry no personal risk.

 

In the majority of cases vehicles are "cloned" for only one purpose and that is for use in the commission of crime and are therefore inevitably short-term affairs. Cloned vehicles are not "ringers" and are doomed to be exposed (if in the hands of the innocent) when tax and insurance comes to be renewed. Allegedly cloned vehicles are often simple duplication errors by main dealers or traders when making or replacing plates.

 

With respect to the OP much has been made of so-called cloning in the press implying that it is a modern trend. This is of course utter tripe because criminals have been using false plates on stolen vehicles for years - and better you use a number that relates to an identical vehicle. It is extremely rare and tends to be more frequent where the cloned vehicle is in close geographical proximity to the donor.

 

If our MENSA-member parking attendant has misread an "O" for a "D", for example, it is a mistake that is easily repeated.

 

I would not pin all of your hopes on having reported the matter to the police. No one will be actively driving around Newcastle looking for it. By appealing, as suggested, you can guarantee that the matter goes away and will cost PS24 into the bargain (2 x £27 POPLA appeals).

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As above regarding debt collectors - never speak to them on the phone...

Same goes for any PPC.

Always in writing, with proof of postage, leaving a paper trail.

 

 

They are out of time for keeper liability, and from the NTK that was posted up, they did not mention the POFA 2012. (from memory )

They are not chasing the keeper, just asking them to name the driver.

 

 

No POPLA code will be issued for the keeper appealing as that is not who is liable and they know that.

 

 

The RK need only reply with 'As registered keeper I am not liable for this charge. Address all further correspondence to the driver. I am under no obligation to name the driver. '

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