Letter from SWT Prosecution Department

[glinda14]

Hi All

 

Looking for some advice / guidance please.

 

Yesterday I received a letter from SWT Prosecution Department to attend an interview at Richmond Station next month

under caution in accordance to the police and criminal evidence act 1984 in relation to use of my weekly rail ticket back in June.

 

I have now been travelling from Shepperton to Wimbledon every week day.

I had always paid the correct ticket.

Sometimes daily ticket sometimes weekly or monthly depending on cash flow.

 

 

3 years ago my partner gave birth to twins,

I stumbled on the fact that Hampton which is only 2 stops and 7 mins from Shepperton

on average was around £20 per week cheaper than travelling from Shepperton.

£80 per month is a hell of a difference when you have two extra mouths to feed!!

 

 

Shepperton did not and does still not have barriers.

when money was particularly tight I decided to purchase a weekly ticket from Hampton to Wimbledon.

As money was getting tighter and tighter this became more frequent and I was never challenged on the train or at Shepperton.

 

 

There was a couple of times when the revenue team turned up en mase at Shepperton

and I would either just buy a single from Shepperton to Hampton or on some occasions

just show them my weekly and they don’t even read the properly and just let me through.

 

I knew this was wrong but it just became the normal thing to do , buy a weekly ticket every week.

 

On the day in question,

I was traveling from Shepperton to Wimbledon there are no ticket barriers at Shepperton

I boarded the train as normal.

Just as the train departed the station a revenue protection office came through the carriage asking to see tickets.

 

 

I opened my railcard which she looked at quickly then moved on slightly.

She then back tracked and asked to look again more closely.

 

 

At this point she noticed that the ticket was for travel between Wimbledon and Hampton.

She asked what station I joined the train.

As we had only just departed Shepperton ( this is the start of the line) I could hardly say anything other than Shepperton.

 

 

She asked why did I not have ticket for travel between Shepperton and Hampton.

I said I normally start my journey at Hampton and just forgot to pay for the difference.

She was just about to let me pay for the difference when her colleague came through asked what was going on.

 

 

Once explained he took over and started asking for ID and personal details,

The lady officer said to him are you sure you want to do this and he just carried on and started to call someone to get ID verification.

 

 

Once verification had been established he said I was now under caution and would now write down in his black book questions and my responses.

He asked me to clarify thing like where did I get on today, where I was going.

Did I have a ticket for the correct journey etc etc.

 

 

The final question he asked and before he asked this he reminded me that I was under caution was

“how long have you been traveling on this journey with this ticket type”.

 

 

As for some reason I still had all my tickets up to November last year in my ticket wallet which he was holding I said “about a year”.

He then re read all the questions and answers and made me sign his book,

gave me a card with his badge number ,

advised that I may be contacted by the revenue team in the future and let me carry on with my journey.

 

Since that day I have now stopped buying tickets from Hampton and have purchased weekly and monthly tickets from Shepperton.

 

I deeply regret my actions,

I have never been in any trouble in the past.

The last 3 months have been hell for my family and myself waiting to see if the SWT were going to pursue this matter.

 

Now the letter has arrived I need some advice on how I should proceed with this interview.

Do I need to attend?

Do you think SWT have a history of my previous tickets?

Do I need a Solicitor ?

Can I offer to pay back the difference and or fine and costs at the interview or am I destined to end up in court?

 

As I have mention I have a young family and the thought of ending up in court and possibly prison is scary.

 

Many Thanks

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

We're not here to judge, I can see that you have realised the effect of your actions now. I don't think you're looking at prison if this is the first time you've ever had a problem, please forget about that.

 

I'll try to find someone who knows about IUCs with train companies.

 

My best, HB

[rebel11]

Hi glinda

 

Firstly try not to worry. It is very unlikely that you will go to prison. Could you post up what the letter says, without personal info and ref. numbers.

[glinda14]

Thanks for your replies.

 

The letter states that they have arranged a interview to gather all the facts before coming to a decision and any future prosecution via a magistrates Court.

The interview will be recorded and under caution. I will have to read and sign the notes at the end. I may bring a legal rep or family /friend if I wish.

 

If I fail to respond or attend the interview, this matter will proceed to court for formal proceedings.

 

I have to contact them to confirm if I am going to attend.

 

I called the number on the letter to confirm my attendance. The gentleman I spoke to seem surprised that I called. Is it common for people not to attend these types of interviews?

 

I also asked do I need to bring anything else along with me. He said as I had stated that I had been traveling on this type of ticket for about a year, bring along any tickets to prove this. Is he trying doing this to prove that I have traveled falsely ? Surely its their job to provide evidence, I know I’m guilty and will openly admit that in the interview but surely its not for me to give it to them ?

 

Also he said it would be a good idea to have a sum in mind that I believe I owe SWT for the difference in fares. I said is this so a settlement can be agreed. He said that they wouldn't settle on the day but pass any offer onto the prosecution manager to consider

 

 

Should I take a lawyer with me , I don't really have the cash for one though?

 

Thanks again

[honeybee13]

Hello there, thank you for the extra information.

 

I see one of the forum experts is hovering, hopefully he will be able to reply to you. You may not need a lawyer, let's see what a raliway person thinks.

 

HB

[Old-CodJA]

There is no way of hiding the fact that this really is a serious situation and I am sure that you already know that.

 

 

The company will already have sufficient evidence to proceed to prosecution on the evidence of the journey made that day, but what they go for will very much depend on exactly what you said and signed as an accurate record of the conversation between you and the inspector, plus any evidence that he may have retained, such as old tickets and photo-identity card.

 

 

Firstly, there is no binding requirement for you to attend the rail company for PACE interview. If you do it would be a really good idea to take a solicitor along with you if you can.

 

 

Such interviews may be considered to have two-fold purpose, it gives you an opportunity to seek an alternative disposal, but more importantly from their perspective, it gives an opportunity for the prosecution to strengthen their case by clearing up any omissions, or errors that the inspector may have made and to seek further evidence or admission of guilt. It is best not to tell them anything that they do not already know.

 

 

Go and see a local law firm who specialise in criminal matters. Most will give a short initial consultation for a very small fee (some may even do it pro-bono). Explain your circumstances and be entirely truthful.

 

 

We can offer guidance on here, but cannot represent your case for you. Because many of us are actually on the 'other side of the floor' as it were, honest commentary may be very helpful for your understanding of what may happen and what the penalties may be if this proceeds to Court. The maximum fine upon conviction of a single first offence of 'intending to avoid a fare contrary to Section 5.3.a of The Regulation of Railways Act [1889] can be up to £1000, but it will not as the more usual entry point for a first conviction is £400. Added to that there may be an order to pay prosecution costs plus the fare avoided as compensation and a victim surcharge, which is applied to anyone fined by the Magistrates in these circumstances. I have to say that your post does make clear that there are multiple offences that might be charged and if they are, Magistrates will normally take account of these as an 'aggravating feature' and the fine could be higher. This is a criminal matter.

 

 

From what you have said, the best you can hope for is that the company will agree to an administrative settlement, which they do not have to, but if they do it is going to be pretty costly.

 

 

An important question that needs answering now is; Did the inspector retain your weekly and all the old tickets along with your photo-card to send in with his report?

[honeybee13]

Thank you for looking in, OC.

 

There you are, glinda, you have an expert.

 

HB

[glinda14]

There is no way of hiding the fact that this really is a serious situation and I am sure that you already know that.

 

 

The company will already have sufficient evidence to proceed to prosecution on the evidence of the journey made that day, but what they go for will very much depend on exactly what you said and signed as an accurate record of the conversation between you and the inspector, plus any evidence that he may have retained, such as old tickets and photo-identity card.

 

 

Firstly, there is no binding requirement for you to attend the rail company for PACE interview. If you do it would be a really good idea to take a solicitor along with you if you can.

 

 

Such interviews may be considered to have two-fold purpose, it gives you an opportunity to seek an alternative disposal, but more importantly from their perspective, it gives an opportunity for the prosecution to strengthen their case by clearing up any omissions, or errors that the inspector may have made and to seek further evidence or admission of guilt. It is best not to tell them anything that they do not already know.

 

 

Go and see a local law firm who specialise in criminal matters. Most will give a short initial consultation for a very small fee (some may even do it pro-bono). Explain your circumstances and be entirely truthful.

 

 

We can offer guidance on here, but cannot represent your case for you. Because many of us are actually on the 'other side of the floor' as it were, honest commentary may be very helpful for your understanding of what may happen and what the penalties may be if this proceeds to Court. The maximum fine upon conviction of a single first offence of 'intending to avoid a fare contrary to Section 5.3.a of The Regulation of Railways Act [1889] can be up to £1000, but it will not as the more usual entry point for a first conviction is £400. Added to that there may be an order to pay prosecution costs plus the fare avoided as compensation and a victim surcharge, which is applied to anyone fined by the Magistrates in these circumstances. I have to say that your post does make clear that there are multiple offences that might be charged and if they are, Magistrates will normally take account of these as an 'aggravating feature' and the fine could be higher. This is a criminal matter.

 

 

From what you have said, the best you can hope for is that the company will agree to an administrative settlement, which they do not have to, but if they do it is going to be pretty costly.

 

 

An important question that needs answering now is; Did the inspector retain your weekly and all the old tickets along with your photo-card to send in with his report?

 

Hi

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

No the inspector did not keep any of my old tickets or my Railcard. Which is why I think that when I rang to confirm if I was attending the interview they asked me to bring any old tickets with me.

 

 

 

Thanks.

[rebel11]

Hi glinda14

 

You could also seek assistance from your local CAB Office which is free, they have access to solicitors.

 

If there are any mitigating circumstances make sure the rail company are made aware of them, then of course it will still be down to them as to how much consideration they will give to them.

[Old-CodJA]

Hi glinda14

 

You could also seek assistance from your local CAB Office which is free, they have access to solicitors.

 

If there are any mitigating circumstances make sure the rail company are made aware of them, then of course it will still be down to them as to how much consideration they will give to them.

 

Yes, rebel is right, you could try CAB for assistance, the only proviso I would note in doing so is that frequently they get bogged down with the idea of penalty fares being the TOCs response to all matters where passengers are detected without valid tickets and even their websites sometimes carry some misleading information in this respect.

 

In your case this is definitely an allegation of intent to avoid a fare and is certainly a prosecutable matter. So long as you make sure that CAB understand this they may be able to offer help.

 

 

Hi

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

No the inspector did not keep any of my old tickets or my Railcard. Which is why I think that when I rang to confirm if I was attending the interview they asked me to bring any old tickets with me.

 

Thanks.

 

Right, this is going to be an unusual reply from me, but in my view the inspector has definitely 'cocked-up' and that is his problem.

 

That's why they are keen on a PACE interview and why the guy on the telephone sounded surprised that you had answered.

 

My 'educated' guess is that; when reporting this case the inspector will have said 'She had a lot of previous tickets too',

 

His boss has said 'Well where are they then?'

 

The inspector has said 'B*gg*r! I didn't seize them' and the boss said 'We need to get hold of them'.

 

I am not an advocate of encouraging people to flout the law or look for loopholes, but having trained inspectors for many years, I am also none too keen on sloppiness by rail staff either.

 

To pursue a serious case of alleged repeated fare evasion the TOC prosecutor needs an accurate and truthful statement and evidence that will stand up under close scrutiny.

[glinda14]

Yes, rebel is right, you could try CAB for assistance, the only proviso I would note in doing so is that frequently they get bogged down with the idea of penalty fares being the TOCs response to all matters where passengers are detected without valid tickets and even their websites sometimes carry some misleading information in this respect.

 

In your case this is definitely an allegation of intent to avoid a fare and is certainly a prosecutable matter. So long as you make sure that CAB understand this they may be able to offer help.

 

 

 

Right, this is going to be an unusual reply from me, but in my view the inspector has definitely 'cocked-up' and that is his problem.

 

That's why they are keen on a PACE interview and why the guy on the telephone sounded surprised that you had answered.

 

My 'educated' guess is that; when reporting this case the inspector will have said 'She had a lot of previous tickets too',

 

His boss has said 'Well where are they then?'

 

The inspector has said 'B*gg*r! I didn't seize them' and the boss said 'We need to get hold of them'.

 

I am not an advocate of encouraging people to flout the law or look for loopholes, but having trained inspectors for many years, I am also none too keen on sloppiness by rail staff either.

 

To pursue a serious case of alleged repeated fare evasion the TOC prosecutor needs an accurate and truthful statement and evidence that will stand up under close scrutiny.

 

Hi, Thanks again for your reply.

 

So if I do not attend the interview will I be procecuted on just the offence on the day or would they still be able to prosecute for the last years worth as I stated to the inspector, would they have enough evidence based on that alone or would they still have my ticket history on the system ?

 

Thanks again

[Old-CodJA]

They will certainly prosecute the single offence if you do not respond and may well also charge allegations of other offences, but without hard evidence that has some drawbacks.

 

Did you sign anything that confirms that you said to the inspector 'I admit that I have avoided my proper fares for the past 12 months' or words to that effect?

 

I cannot condone persistent fare evasion and I will not do so, but I can see how the TOC might have some difficulties.

 

The best suggestion that I can make is that you really do need to go and see a qualified criminal defence lawyer.

[glinda14]

They will certainly prosecute the single offence if you do not respond and may well also charge allegations of other offences, but without hard evidence that has some drawbacks.

 

Did you sign anything that confirms that you said to the inspector 'I admit that I have avoided my proper fares for the past 12 months' or words to that effect?

 

I cannot condone persistent fare evasion and I will not do so, but I can see how the TOC might have some difficulties.

 

The best suggestion that I can make is that you really do need to go and see a qualified criminal defence lawyer.

 

Yes I did sign his black book at the end after he asked all of his questions , one of which was "how long have you been travelling on this type of ticket?" I said about a year.

 

Thanks

[glinda14]

Hi all

 

 

an update: I attended the interview last month, and a answered all questions truthfully and admitted to what I have done, SWT confirmed that I hadn't bought a ticket from Shepperton since early 2011, so longer than I remembered. I admitted that I did not realise it was that long.I offered to reimburse for the fares evaded. They asked me to prove what tickets I had purchased via credit card statements, which I did via email to SWT. Today they have offered me a out of court settlement plus costs via email. The costs come to around £ 1500, plus a very large amount of fare evaded. I have until the end of the month to pay in full. I would of course prefer to settle, however I simply do not have the kind of money they are asking to me pay in full.Is it worth asking them to come to some agreement to pay in instalments ? If I don't pay they will proceed to court. As I have already admitted this of course I will plead guilty in court, as this dates back to 2011 my major worry would be going to prison.

 

 

Any advice please guys ?

 

 

Thanks

[Stigy]

Hi,

 

I wouldn't worry about prison as that won't happen.

 

It's worth calling them and asking about installments. It's a large amount so they might be willing to settle it over say 3-months.

[firstclassx]

I wouldn't be too sure they'll be willing to accept 3 month repayment terms!

 

If offence was detected/reported in June 2014, that gives SWT until December to prosecute the case!

 

Bottom line is that it needs to be paid before end of November!

 

Using the numbers in the first post, I'd estimate that the fare "avoided" is around £3000.

 

(Evading £80 a month, 2011-2014)

 

If they go for the full fare due (rather than the amount avoided) then it could easily be double that amount they claim to be avoided.

 

If I was the SWT Prosecutor, I'd be applying for the summons now, and once you pay up fully, withdrawing it/offering no evidence.

 

If BTP/CPS were dealing with this, I'd say imprisonment was a real possibility because they would probably use more severe legislation (Fraud Act etc) than a TOC privately prosecuting.

 

As it is, I think you're looking at a fine plus some sort community sentencing option (not imprisonment).

[rebel11]

Hi glinda14

 

Send your request in writing, send it Recorded Delivery. It might be an idea to send an Income & Expenditure spreadsheet with your request, show that you really can't pay in a lump sum. A letter backed up by figures and a proposal to pay an affordable amount each month might be the way to go. If they say 'yes', state that you will set up a standing order.

 

There are lots of Income & Expenditure Spreadsheets online.

 

Let us know what they say.

[Stigy]

If BTP/CPS were dealing with this, I'd say imprisonment was a real possibility because they would probably use more severe legislation (Fraud Act etc) than a TOC privately prosecuting.

 

As it is, I think you're looking at a fine plus some sort community sentencing option (not imprisonment).

 

Slap on the wrist and a caution more like. From what I've seen the BTP are far more lenient that TOCs and tend to avoid such cases as much as possible.