How successful are WF at finding old CCAs?

[Blaz]

Back in summer 2004 i took a loan out for £1500

a few months after that i borrowed a further £1000 with my x girlfriend as a joint loan.

 

 

We split in 2005 an i was devastated to find that with interest i owed them £6,000+ back!

 

 

Since then although i paid my half of the debt for a couple of yrs she never paid a penny my credit got destroyed and still is.

 

 

I never spoke or paid a penny to them for a few yrs now (out of protest that they've always harassed me for the debt an never her).

So i havent spoken to or dealt with them since 2009 even then that was a debt collector (lewis i think?)

 

I want this thing gone, its been a ball and chain for too many years and ive realised im just goin to have to bite the bullit and get rid of it somehow.

 

I think i maybe too late for a PPI claim now although i know for definite i was sold PPI,

why didnt you make a claim sooner you ask?

 

 

Well in May 2005 they amended my loan and told me they knocked money off the the balance (around £6,000)

which took the balance to around £4,900.

I assumed they knocked the PPI off but now that i look at my credit score im not so sure as it says my default balance is £4,300.

 

 

Here is my report taken from Experian below:-

 

Company name: WELCOME FINANCIAL SERVICES LTD Who's this?

Account type: Loan

Started: 31/05/2005

Default Balance: £4,314

Current Balance: £6,393

Repayment Period: Monthly Payment: £74 over 73 months

Defaulted On: 14/04/2007

File Updated for the Period to: 13/02/2011

 

I want to know -

Whats the best thing for me to do to get rid of this debt?

It says it will be removed from report in 6 yrs after it went into default in 2007

(although I had contact with them in 2009) ..

. Should i wait?

Or if i call up and offer them a settlement fee ??

 

What is a Default balance?!?!

 

Also this might be important or not ..

. They said to me if i didnt take the PPI they wouldnt give me the loan, does this void the credit agreement?

 

Im really at a loss to get rid of this debt please help!

 

Thx!

[Blaz]

Well i jus spoke to some guy over at Financial Services Compensation Scheme

who are dealing with PPI claims on behalf of Welcome Finance,

 

 

he said although he can see that in 2004 the two loans had PPI on them but the amended loan in 2005 does NOT.

Therefore because the 2 other loans in 2004 where before Jan 05 he cant help me and that i have to contact Welcome ..

 

 

. what can i say to them ?

 

 

If i still have proof about the PPI in 2004

 

 

can i do anything about it ?

 

 

Will they be more likely to settle the debt if i threaten them with PPI action ??

[postggj]

Blaz

 

 

 

i realy do need to see that 2004 welcome agreement with ppi on it

 

CAN YOU SCAN IT INTO YOUR PC

[Blaz]

Im at work at the moment, im gunna look for it tonight ... thx for getting back to me!

[napoleon_dynamite]

I know most people on here would disagree, but I would suggest going via the FOS - it may take longer,

but its free and there is no risk to you, unlike the Courts. Or just write straight to Welcome

- just explain why you think PPI was mis-sold. What does everyone think

- as Welcome have already admitted that there was PPI on the agreement,

is it worth making a Subject Access Request, or just going straight in with a complaint?

[mrsfoot]

Begin with SAR. You will get all the info they hold on you..however remember there is a 6yr limit which may mean WF no longer holds any information

 

If you get the info then you can go through what was paid (PPI, charges etc) and follow the process for claiming them back.

 

To make a complaint to FSCS you must have had a final response frm the company you are claiming against...and they will ask for copies of docs you hold...so make sure you copy everything. Currently FSCS is working approximately 12mnth behind...so its not a quick fix.

 

For PPI pre 2005 you must contact welcome [email protected]

 

Good luck!

[MrZ]

The FOS will not get involved with any PPI complaint prior to 2005.

 

Before you can determine what, if anything can be claimed, you need copies of the agreement(s) so you can see what was added to the loan, andyou need copies of your statements so you can see how much has been paid over time.

 

You may be able to claim PPI and/or unfiar charges. You wont knoe unless you have copies of the statement and agreements. Do you know how to obtain these?

 

A request under the CCA 1974 will cost 1.00 and will get you only the current/active agreement and statement.

A SAR will cost you 10.00 ansd should include any informationthey hold on you including the older agreement.

[Blaz]

Okay here is my first agreement from July 2004 borrowed £1500

 

july04copy.pdf

 

My 2nd agreement from Nov 2004 where we asked to borrow an extra £1000 on top of the £1500

 

Nov04copy.pdf

 

Then almost a year after our first loan they generously knocked off some money and amended the agreement in May 2005 (note the lack of PPI in this one??)

 

May05copy.pdf

Edited August 17, 2011 by Blaz

[dx100uk]

use:

 

scan the required letters/agreements/sheets

as a picture file

remove all pers info inc barcodes etc using paint

but leave all figures and dates.

goto one of the many free online pdf converter websites

convert the image to pdf format.

or ir you have PDF as an installed printer drive use that

open a new msg box here

hit go advanced below the msg box

hit manage attachments below that box

hit the add files button on the top right

hit select files, navigate to your file on your pc

hit upload files

NB:you can set where it goes in the post by hitting insert inline.

the hit reply button

 

 

if you need to post docs please

 

dx

[dx100uk]

pers i would use the fos customer complaint form

 

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/ppi.html

 

dx

[MrZ]

If you have already made a complaint to WFS and they have given you a final decision or the 8 weeks has passed,

then use you can try the FOS.

 

 

But dont be surprised if they tell you they cant help you.

 

 

The only time you had PPI was prior to the Jan 14 2005 date for which the FOS jurisdiction started.

 

You should also note that a judge has also recently ruled that when a loan is taken out which pays off the previous loan,

that this does not mean they are related agreements.

Edited August 17, 2011 by MrZ

[MrZ]

Also you should note that if you claim anything back PPI ,

 

 

that WFS will most likely use their right to set off any refund against any arrears you have.

 

 

You should consider how this will affect your debt being statute barred as it will be a payment toward the debt.

Edited August 17, 2011 by MrZ

[Blaz]

PPI aside ... for one minute, if you look at my 2nd credit agreement dated Nov 2004, you will see that that the total amount borrowed £4012 plus interest is £6616.08. Then in May 2005 the third credit agreement you can see that the PPI has gone and my total amount borrowed is £3252 with interest is £5240.96.

 

My point is on my recent credit report it states -

 

Default Balance: £4,314

Current Balance: £6,393

 

I cant be entirely sure but i dont think ive paid enough to get the balance down to £4,300, im quite certain last time i spoke to someone at Lewis in Oct 2009 they said i owed £4,300 so not sure where the £6,393 balance is coming from as i think they froze the interest.

 

Back to PPI ive read i can still claim because i have these original signed documents, the 6 yr thing is only because they keep the paperwork for 6 yrs. Im quite happy to claim back PPI (not sure if i paid enough to claim it back!) and get it knocked off the balance. But with the latest agreement in May 05 it looks like they knocked it off ... BUT i still paid for PPI when i took the 2nd loan out back in 2004!

 

Does anyone knw where i stand with this? I mean i have proof ...

[dx100uk]

dont think a PPI reclaim will reset the SB date

as its them doing it not you.

 

dx

[dx100uk]

and yes go get that PPI

there is NO time limit if you have the evidence.

 

dx

[MrZ]

PPI aside ... for one minute, if you look at my 2nd credit agreement dated Nov 2004, you will see that that the total amount borrowed £4012 plus interest is £6616.08. Then in May 2005 the third credit agreement you can see that the PPI has gone and my total amount borrowed is £3252 with interest is £5240.96.

 

My point is on my recent credit report it states -

 

Default Balance: £4,314

Current Balance: £6,393

 

I cant be entirely sure but i dont think ive paid enough to get the balance down to £4,300, im quite certain last time i spoke to someone at Lewis in Oct 2009 they said i owed £4,300 so not sure where the £6,393 balance is coming from as i think they froze the interest.

 

Back to PPI ive read i can still claim because i have these original signed documents, the 6 yr thing is only because they keep the paperwork for 6 yrs. Im quite happy to claim back PPI (not sure if i paid enough to claim it back!) and get it knocked off the balance. But with the latest agreement in May 05 it looks like they knocked it off ... BUT i still paid for PPI when i took the 2nd loan out back in 2004!

 

Does anyone knw where i stand with this? I mean i have proof ...

 

It will be very difficult to try to figure out what the balances are without more information. You will need statements from both Welcome and Lewis, which by the way, are both part of the same group - Cattles plc.

 

With regard to the PPI claim on the older loans; I can only tell you what has been Welcome's position on claims similar to yours. The may tell you that the agreements are bno longer active, and since they are before WFS were regulated by the the FOS, you are not eligible to make a claim via the FSCS. They may also tell you that they were not regulated at all except by the GISC. When you have agreements that pre date the Jan 2005 date, it becomes very difficult to claim because there are no regulators. Essentially if WFS say no to your claim...who to you appeal to? The only answer is the court.

 

Now with regard to court, there was a recent case just like yours. The borrowers argued that because the PPI was on each previous agreement, that when they took out the final agreement, they were paying the PPI from the earlier "related" agreements. The juled ruled against the borrowers and said that the agreements were not regulated.

 

With regard to the statute barring, WFS will say that you are claiming that the money is yours and therefore should be refunded to you. They will say they have the right to set off against arrears. And since you have arrears, the money that would have otherwise gone to you, will go toward the debt. An you are basically paying the debt by proxy. So you will not only have to claim the ppi back, but at the same time establish you do not acknowledge the debt. Its a catch 22, as they are mutually exclusive.

 

So the bottom line is, beware of the risk of losing anytime you may have aquired toward the debt being statute barred. If this is not a concern, then all you can do is make the calim, see what their reply will be, and then based on that decide if and how you will fight the decision. You wont know if they will uphold or deny the claim until you make the claim, but if you do, you run the risk of complicating the issue of statute barring at the very least.

 

I would be inclined to think that you have a better chance of claiming back unfair fees/charges, if any. This doesnt have the same risk as the PPI with regard to statute barring because you havent actually paid the fees/charges. They will not refund them to you, they will simply reverse them and notify you of the new balance.

 

Keep records of everything because Welcome are sneaky at best, incompetent at worse, and more often than not, just keeping good records will give yo ute upper hand.

Edited August 17, 2011 by MrZ

[Blaz]

It will be very difficult to try to figure out what the balances are without more information. You will need statements from both Welcome and Lewis, which by the way, are both part of the same group - Cattles plc.

 

With regard to the PPI claim on the older loans; I can only tell you what has been Welcome's position on claims similar to yours. The may tell you that the agreements are bno longer active, and since they are before WFS were regulated by the the FOS, you are not eligible to make a claim via the FSCS. They may also tell you that they were not regulated at all except by the GISC. When you have agreements that pre date the Jan 2005 date, it becomes very difficult to claim because there are no regulators. Essentially if WFS say no to your claim...who to you appeal to? The only answer is the court.

 

Now with regard to court, there was a recent case just like yours. The borrowers argued that because the PPI was on each previous agreement, that when they took out the final agreement, they were paying the PPI from the earlier "related" agreements. The juled ruled against the borrowers and said that the agreements were not regulated.

 

With regard to the statute barring, WFS will say that you are claiming that the money is yours and therefore should be refunded to you. They will say they have the right to set off against arrears. And since you have arrears, the money that would have otherwise gone to you, will go toward the debt. An you are basically paying the debt by proxy. So you will not only have to claim the ppi back, but at the same time establish you do not acknowledge the debt. Its a catch 22, as they are mutually exclusive.

 

So the bottom line is, beware of the risk of losing anytime you may have aquired toward the debt being statute barred. If this is not a concern, then all you can do is make the calim, see what their reply will be, and then based on that decide if and how you will fight the decision. You wont know if they will uphold or deny the claim until you make the claim, but if you do, you run the risk of complicating the issue of statute barring at the very least.

 

I would be inclined to think that you have a better chance of claiming back unfair fees/charges, if any. This doesnt have the same risk as the PPI with regard to statute barring because you havent actually paid the fees/charges. They will not refund them to you, they will simply reverse them and notify you of the new balance.

 

Keep records of everything because Welcome are sneaky at best, incompotent at worse, and more often than not, just keeping good records will give yo ute upper hand.

 

Thanks for all your help !

 

So its either court to settle PPI (how much will that cost though?!) and risk my statute barring

 

OR

 

Dont do anything and let the 6 years thing keep going ... but when did the 6 yrs thing start was it when the account went into default in 2007 or when i last spoke to someone ??

If it did get away with statute barring would it leave a permanent stain on my credit file?

 

OR

 

Bite the bullet and try to make a settlement fee with them ? What do you reckon my chances are of ringing up mentioning the PPI from 2004 and asking them to knock it off the balance and offering a settlement fee?

[MrZ]

Thanks for all your help !

 

So its either court to settle PPI (how much will that cost though?!) and risk my statute barring

 

OR

 

Dont do anything and let the 6 years thing keep going ... but when did the 6 yrs thing start was it when the account went into default in 2007 or when i last spoke to someone ??

If it did get away with statute barring would it leave a permanent stain on my credit file?

 

OR

 

Bite the bullet and try to make a settlement fee with them ? What do you reckon my chances are of ringing up mentioning the PPI from 2004 and asking them to knock it off the balance and offering a settlement fee?

 

I wouldnt recommend court unless it is the absolute last option. There are many on these forums that will say go to court, its the only way you will get what's due to you. The problem with that is, every case is different. There are no blanket rules or laws that apply strictly across the board, and many of those who will tell you to go to court, wont be able to help you once you get deep into it. I have a case in the court, the PPI like yours was pre 2005, the issue of limitations is a key part of their defense. I am just in the beginning stages, and I have spent 500.00 so far in court fees, etc, and am likley to spend another 1,000.00 plus before it gets to trial. This is due in part to having to hire a barrister to argue the finer points of my claim for which definite answers cannot be found on the forum. So on the court issue...last resort only, and be sure you have lots of time and resources if you plan to go down the court route.

 

The clock for statute barring begins from the date you last made payment toward the debt or acknowledged the debt. Speaking to someone isnt necessarily acknowleding the debt. Generally its based on the date of the last payment.

 

Dont ring them for any reason. This will do you no good whatsoever. Chances are you wont get any answer that makes any sense, and even if you did there will be no record of it. From this point, if you are going to make any contact with them at all it should be in writing. You can email them at [email protected], and keep record of the email being sent, or write to the head office. If you post your letters you should either send it recorded delivery (1.23 first class) or get proof of posting from the post office counter (free).

 

There are loads of template letters in the library for when or if you decide to write them. I suggest you read some of the various threads so you can get a good understanding of possible approaches. Once you understand the process, start with the easiest claim first, then go from there.

 

EDIT: There is no reason you cant write and ask them for a settlement. I wouldnt be making any offers first. And remember if you write them regarding settlement, you should make it a without prejudice offer so that it cant be used as evidence that you acknowledge the debt.

 

A default on your credit file will remain fro 6 year, even if you settle the debt. The entry should show as settled, but it will also show that you defaulted. After 6 years it should drop off automatically.

Edited August 17, 2011 by MrZ

[mrsfoot]

MrZ "judge has also recently ruled that when a loan is taken out which pays off the previous loan, that this does not mean they are related agreements."

 

I am very interested in this statement, but cannot find anything on the net about it...any ida where I can find it?

[MrZ]

MrZ "judge has also recently ruled that when a loan is taken out which pays off the previous loan, that this does not mean they are related agreements."

 

I am very interested in this statement, but cannot find anything on the net about it...any ida where I can find it?

 

The case referred to is Soulsby v FirstPlus Financial Group Plc.

 

HTH

[Blaz]

Welcome Finance went bust in 2009 and sold on lots of their accounts (including mine),

 

 

Lowell's have recently contacted me after me avoiding the debt for almost 5 years

- I've been advised to send a CCA request, but

 

 

that got me thinking, surely there have been lots of people come through here regarding old WF debts

that have been sold on to Lowells or other DCAs.

 

 

I wondered have any of you had experience in asking for CCAs specifically with old WF debts

- are they really hard for them to find due to the company going bust?

 

 

has anyone else on here been involved with topics regarding WF CCAs that date back to 2004/2005

and found that WF cant find them due to the accounts being so old??

[Blaz]

I thought a forum dedicated to WF would've had a lot to say about my post - I imagine lots of people on here wouldve requested CCAs from them, thought itd be interesting to see the success rate or the likeliness that they could provide them.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

I thought a forum dedicated to WF would've had a lot to say about my post - I imagine lots of people on here wouldve requested CCAs from them, thought itd be interesting to see the success rate or the likeliness that they could provide them.

Hi, You may be more fortunate if your account was defaulted and sold off when Welcome failed compared to others that Welcome held on to until in some cases very recently defaulted recently and sold immediately.

 

 

It is worth the £1 for the CCA request to Lowell!

 

 

Welcome Finance's paper work was never brilliant but documents have been found that are compliant.

 

 

Some more detail on the alleged debt will enable further advice.

 

 

Care is needed when dealing with Lowell especially if the debt is more than £750.00 as it is possible that Lowell will issue a Statutory Demand for Payment.

[Blaz]

Hi BRIGADIER2JCS thanks for coming back to me!

 

I first borrowed in July 04, then borrowed again in Nov 04 (it then became a joint debt split between me and an x girlfriend). Then when we split in 05 the agreement was amended in May 05 to "split" the monthly repayments between us. I kept up my end of the bargain, she didnt so despite me paying my half, my credit score was destroyed. Anyway I eventually got sick of them not chasing her and happy for me to pay the whole thing - so when i moved house i never told them my new address that was Nov 2009. Now 5 years later Lowells have found me and sent me a letter which also included a letter from BW Legal (threatening court) - the amount is for £4100+.

 

I sent a CCA request to Lowells and then this to BW Legal -

 

"Dear Sirs,

 

Ref: xxxxxxxx

 

Thank you for your letter dated xx/xxxx/2014. As the letter contains a threat of litigation, it is being treated as a formal letter before action. As such, I refer you to paragraph 1 of the Practice Direction Pre-Action Conduct, which states the purpose of such a letter is to “enable the parties to settle the issues between them” and to encourage the parties to “exchange information”.

 

Paragraph 2.2 (1) of Annex A states you have an obligation to “list the essential documents on which the Claimant intends to rely”. I could not identify such a list in your letter, please list the documents so I can see your case against me and request copies of anything that I may need.

 

Paragraph 3.2 (3) of Annex A allows me to “request further information to enable me to provide a full response”. My request is a request for documents as the information I require would come from those documents. Paragraph 5.1 of Annex A states that you should “provide the documents requested within as short a period of time as is practicable or explain in writing why the documents will not be provided”.

 

I require copies of the following:

 

The original credit agreement;

The Default Notice;

The Termination Notice;

The Notice of Assignment;

Statements of account;

 

These documents would be expected to be supplied if proceedings were issued and would likely be in your possession if you were issuing a claim. If you consider that there is difficulty in providing a copy of a document, please identify that document and the reason. Additionally, there is a duty to supply documents under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. A request has been made under s.77 on xx/xxxx/2014 and I am awaiting a response.

 

I shall being able to provide you with a full response to your letter within 14 days of receipt of the documents listed above and also reserve the right to refer to the contents of this letter if proceedings are issued without first providing copy documents to me.

 

Yours sincerely,"

 

So the last time i signed anything was 2005, I received a default in 2007 and my account sold on in 2009 to Lewis Debt Recovery (my last payment was to them in 2009).

 

These are copies of my origional agreements

 

Here is my first agreement from July 2004 borrowed £1500

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]29559[/ATTACH]

 

My 2nd agreement from Nov 2004 where we asked to borrow an extra £1000 on top of the £1500

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]29561[/ATTACH]

 

Then almost a year after our first loan they amended the agreement splitting the monthly repayments in half and generously knocking off some money in May 2005 (note the lack of PPI in this one??)

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]29560[/ATTACH]

Edited September 21, 2014 by Blaz

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Hi BRIGADIER2JCS thanks for coming back to me!

 

I first borrowed in July 04, then borrowed again in Nov 04 (it then became a joint debt split between me and an x girlfriend). Then when we split in 05 the agreement was amended in May 05 to "split" the monthly repayments between us. I kept up my end of the bargain, she didnt so despite me paying my half, my credit score was destroyed. Anyway I eventually got sick of them not chasing her and happy for me to pay the whole thing - so when i moved house i never told them my new address that was Nov 2009. Now 5 years later Lowells have found me and sent me a letter which also included a letter from BW Legal (threatening court) - the amount is for £4100+.

 

I sent a CCA request to Lowells and then this to BW Legal -

 

 

 

So the last time i signed anything was 2005, I received a default in 2007 and my account sold on in 2009 to Lewis Debt Recovery (my last payment was to them in 2009).

 

These are copies of my origional agreements

 

Here is my first agreement from July 2004 borrowed £1500

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]29559[/ATTACH]

 

My 2nd agreement from Nov 2004 where we asked to borrow an extra £1000 on top of the £1500

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]29561[/ATTACH]

 

Then almost a year after our first loan they amended the agreement splitting the monthly repayments in half and generously knocking off some money in May 2005 (note the lack of PPI in this one??)

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]29560[/ATTACH]

 

 

Was the amended agreement a rewrite of the original agreement or a new joint account created.

 

 

When did you personally make any payment or written acknowledgment of the debt?

 

 

I think you will also have to make a SAR to Welcome this will at least throw some light on the disappearing PPI for one thing.