old bill - Dodgebal discussion

[old bill]

With the number of fraudulent, unlawful and wrongful forced entries by county court bailiffs and energy companies on the increase, it does make me wonder if the Master Locksmiths Association (MLA) will advise their members not to undertake forced entries under any circumstances or their professional indemnity insurers will refuse to cover individual locksmiths if a forced entry is known or subsequently found to be fraudulent, wrongful or unlawful. I do know that in serious cases, a locksmith can be at risk of never working as a locksmith again.

[Peterbard]

With the number of fraudulent, unlawful and wrongful forced entries by county court bailiffs and energy companies on the increase, it does make me wonder if the Master Locksmiths Association (MLA) will advise their members not to undertake forced entries under any circumstances or their professional indemnity insurers will refuse to cover individual locksmiths if a forced entry is known or subsequently found to be fraudulent, wrongful or unlawful. I do know that in serious cases, a locksmith can be at risk of never working as a locksmith again.

 

Is there any supporting evidence for the statement that these unlawful entries are on the increase ? I can find no data on the subject, can I ask the source of the in formation which leads to this belief please.

[old bill]

Is there any supporting evidence for the statement that these unlawful entries are on the increase ? I can find no data on the subject, can I ask the source of the in formation which leads to this belief please.

 

Can I suggest you look on YouTube where you will find examples of the very matters you refer to? Notwithstanding, I post on other advice forums, am also a member of a network of groups that assist people to deal with illegal/unlawful evictions and I also receive referrals through the lay advocacy I undertake on a voluntary basis.

 

Also, can you honestly see anyone involved in unlawful/illegal evictions keeping data of their "hits"? Of course they won't.

[Peterbard]

 

Also, can you honestly see anyone involved in unlawful/illegal evictions keeping data of their "hits"? Of course they won't.

 

Well no I cant, which is why I queried he source of the information which fueled your comment.

 

I will have a look at "Utube" although it do not seem to be a very satisfactory source of empirical data to me. Anyway thanks.

 

Interested in the "lay advocacy" also, how does this work ? Do you specialize in property law also?

[old bill]

Well no I cant, which is why I queried he source of the information which fueled your comment.

 

I will have a look at "Utube" although it do not seem to be a very satisfactory source of empirical data to me. Anyway thanks.

 

Interested in the "lay advocacy" also, how does this work ? Do you specialize in property law also?

 

Lay Advocates (also known as MacKenzie Friends) are becoming more common with cuts in Legal Aid. LAs/MFs either specialise in certain areas, e.g. PCNs, Council Tax, or cover a wide range of areas. Many will simply advise a person seeking assistance and guide them through the steps to take, whilst others will represent them in court. There is provision in law to allow "lay representatives" to represent people in civil cases on the Small Claims Track and some cases in magistrates and other courts. Many LAs/MFs do what they do to help others and do not do what they do for financial gain, other than out-of-pocket expenses.

 

You ask me if I specialise in Property Law. At present, most of the cases I am assisting with involve unlawful/illegal repossession and eviction. Being a retired policeman, I am able to use my knowledge of the law, procedures and the legal system to investigate any anomalies in the processes involved. Common anomalies are no record of applications being made and court fees not having been paid. In one case, there was no record of the case whatsoever. That case is currently under formal investigation. I have been trained in Civil Law by a legal professional. Invariably, with alleged mortgage defaults, it is not unusual to find evidence of excessive, unfair or unlawful fees. There are also forensic experts who specialise in Legal Forensics and who examine purported court documents to determine their authenticity. They also examine documents purported to be Warrants of Entry and mortgage agreements. If you know what you are looking for, it helps.

[Peterbard]

Very interesting thank you

[old bill]

Very interesting thank you

 

You're welcome.

[tomtubby]

 

You ask me if I specialise in Property Law. At present, most of the cases I am assisting with involve unlawful/illegal repossession and eviction. Being a retired policeman, I am able to use my knowledge of the law, procedures and the legal system to investigate any anomalies in the processes involved. Common anomalies are no record of applications being made and court fees not having been paid. In one case, there was no record of the case whatsoever. That case is currently under formal investigation. I have been trained in Civil Law by a legal professional. Invariably, with alleged mortgage defaults, it is not unusual to find evidence of excessive, unfair or unlawful fees. There are also forensic experts who specialise in Legal Forensics and who examine purported court documents to determine their authenticity. They also examine documents purported to be Warrants of Entry and mortgage agreements. If you know what you are looking for, it helps.

 

OB

 

In post number 10 you mention that you are aware of a number of fraudulent, unlawful and wrongful forced entries by COUNTY COURT bailiffs. If correct, the implications would be simply horrendous. Equally you have mentioned above that cmmon anomalies include no records of applications (for repossession of a property) ever having been made or unlawful fees.

 

As you say all of these are under investigation. Given the seriousness can you provide more detail as to who (or which agency) is currently investigating. these claims.

[old bill]

OB

 

In post number 10 you mention that you are aware of a number of fraudulent, unlawful and wrongful forced entries by COUNTY COURT bailiffs. If correct, the implications would be simply horrendous. Equally you have mentioned above that cmmon anomalies include no records of applications (for repossession of a property) ever having been made or unlawful fees.

 

As you say all of these are under investigation. Given the seriousness can you provide more detail as to who (or which agency) is currently investigating. these claims.

 

Sending you a PM, TT.

[Peterbard]

Sending you a PM, TT.

 

I would also be interested in which agency is pursuing these matters, i do not think that naming the agency involved would be in any way a breach of confidence as presumably it would be a public body, is it into possible to give more detail on here.

 

As TT says if these breaches rare being committed by county court bailiffs then it is very serious indeed, as the authority would be directly liable.

[old bill]

I would also be interested in which agency is pursuing these matters, i do not think that naming the agency involved would be in any way a breach of confidence as presumably it would be a public body, is it into possible to give more detail on here.

 

As TT says if these breaches rare being committed by county court bailiffs then it is very serious indeed, as the authority would be directly liable.

 

A number of cases are being pursued by way of private prosecution due to an almost total loss of public confidence in the CPS and police. Incidentally, the number of private prosecutions has increased sharply in recent years. One case I was briefly involved with in an advisory capacity, is currently with the Serious Fraud Office due to the sums of money involved. Without prejudicing cases currently being investigated and litigated, I will say that where county court bailiffs have been involved in evictions relating to alleged mortgage repossessions which have been shown to be suspicious or fraudulent, the decent ones withdraw to allow further investigations and representations to take place. However, there are some county court bailiffs who should never have been appointed as county court bailiffs. There have also been cases where, when challenged to produce paperwork for inspection, persons purporting to be county court bailiffs have turned and fled.

 

Because the police regard the vast majority of crimes these days as civil matters, it falls upon retired police officers and law enforcement officers to conduct the investigations into these matters.

 

Turning to warrants of entry for alleged utility bill debts, the most common anomalies on Warrants of Entry are -

 

a. the signature of the JP alleged to have signed the warrant is smudged;

b. the utility company employees suddenly develop convenient amnesia when challenged as to the name of the JP who is alleged to have signed the warrant;

c. the court has no record of the warrant being applied for or the hearing at which the warrant was signed.

[Peterbard]

A number of cases are being pursued by way of private prosecution due to an almost total loss of public confidence in the CPS and police. Incidentally, the number of private prosecutions has increased sharply in recent years. One case I was briefly involved with in an advisory capacity, is currently with the Serious Fraud Office due to the sums of money involved. Without prejudicing cases currently being investigated and litigated, I will say that where county court bailiffs have been involved in evictions relating to alleged mortgage repossessions, on subsequent investigation, it has been shown that o be either suspicious or fraudulent.

 

I find this very intriguing, is there any data available which refers to these matters.

When you say a umber of private prosecutions, are these civil in nature or is there some mechanism where criminal action is being taken without involving the CPS or the police ?

[old bill]

I find this very intriguing, is there any data available which refers to these matters.

When you say a umber of private prosecutions, are these civil in nature or is there some mechanism where criminal action is being taken without involving the CPS or the police ?

 

Our posts have crossed, Dodgeball, as I had a glitch with the voice-recognition software installed in my laptop which caused text to post before I had finished dictating the post I have now posted.

 

Because of the almost total loss of confidence in the CPS and police, people are now pursuing private prosecutions a lot more than they did, say, 10 years ago.

 

Yes, there is legislation that allows private prosecutions to be pursued, namely Section 6(1), Prosecution of Offences Act 1985.

 

I will say that a number of cases I have been involved in have involved people who have followed FMOTL theories and matters have gone mammaries skywards as a result. Those cases, I have to say, are difficult to deal with. Equally, I have been involved with cases involving well-educated people who have done things in strict accordance with the law and been shafted by a regulatory system that is not fit for purpose and politicians who have allowed themselves to be seduced by the siren voices in the City of London.

[Peterbard]

Yes it is a problem with FMOTL arguments, they do tend to ignore any counter arguments which does not agree with their agenda.

 

Interested to know which criminal legislation was used to pursue in the private criminal prosecution and on what charges, the section you mentioned does not permit private prosecutions as I understand it, it just does not preclude them as long as the directors office permits an individual to act on the particular law being invoked. As I understand it a criminal action under the fraud act for instance would have to be commenced with the permission of the director(through the CPS). Although there is a civil sanction I believe.

[old bill]

yes it is a problem with fmotl arguments, they do tend to ignore any counter arguments which does not agree with their agenda.

tell me about it!

interested to know which criminal legislation was used to pursue in the private criminal prosecution and on what charges, the section you mentioned does not permit private prosecutions as i understand it, it just does not preclude them as long as the directors office permits an individual to act on the particular law being invoked. As i understand it a criminal action under the fraud act for instance would have to be commenced with the permission of the director(through the cps). Although there is a civil sanction i believe.

to the best of my knowledge and belief, legislation that has been used in private prosecutions include -

 

a. Forgery & counterfeiting act 1981;

b. Section 135, county courts act 1984*.

 

A. Is used where there is forensic evidence that court and other documents are either forged or have been altered. B. Is the more commonly used. When cases of suspected mortgage repossession fraud are investigated, one of the documents that is requisitioned is the case management file print-out from the court. This, alone, can be very revealing.

 

In one case, which is still ongoing, an hceo acted on a writ that had been obtained on a ccj allegedly obtained by a high street bank. However, when enquiries were made with the county court where the bank was allegedly granted the ccj, the court had no record of the case whatsoever. Further enquiries revealed the case reference had never been issued. The hceo is, understandably, very worried and somewhat embarrassed by this as it is now evident the ccj was an abuse of the legal process by the bank. They were owed no money. A number of employees of the bank are currently facing private prosecutions for their part in the matter.

@@@@

[tomtubby]

OB

 

In post number 10 you mention that you are aware of a number of fraudulent, unlawful and wrongful forced entries by COUNTY COURT bailiffs. If correct, the implications would be simply horrendous. Equally you have mentioned above that common anomalies include no records of applications (for repossession of a property) ever having been made or unlawful fees.

 

As you say all of these are under investigation. Given the seriousness can you provide more detail as to who (or which agency) is currently investigating. these claims.

 

In my post number 18 I raised concern at the allegations about County Court Bailiffs. As many will know a County Court Bailiff does not require certification and the reason for this is the responsibility will lay with the District Judge. If it is the case that a County Court Bailiff has acted "fraudulently" then as a matter of URGENCY this needs to be brought to the attention of the Ministry of Justice and almost certainly a senior judge at the relevant County Court.

 

You also mention about a High Court Officer enforcing a writ from a bank. This incident should be brought to the URGENT attention of the High Court Enforcement Officers Association. The reason for this is because with debts enforced by a High Court Enforcement Agent there is the SERIOUS matter of PERSONAL LIABILITY on the named HCEO on the reverse of the writ.

 

What you have stated is VERY SERIOUS indeed and that was why I asked which agency were involved.

 

In both scenarios outlined by me a private prosecution would not be possible.

[tomtubby]

Old Bill,

 

There is something very odd indeed about the case regarding an HCEO enforcing a writ for a 'High Street Bank'. An HCEO would know perfectly well that (at this present time at least) bank and credit card debts are not able to be enforced by an HCEO.I can assure you that the HCEOA would love to be able to enforce such debts....but not at present. They are not permitted to enforce CCJ's that are regulated by the Consumer Credit Act

[old bill]

If you could clear some space in your PM Inbox, TT, I will address your concerns off forum. This is because the case involving the HCEO is ongoing as are a number of other cases.

[brassnecked]

If you could clear some space in your PM Inbox, TT, I will address your concerns off forum. This is because the case involving the HCEO is ongoing as are a number of other cases.

I feel TT will be shocked and horrified at the depth of the issues within the system, especially with the bent briefs and property deceptions going on under the radar.

[old bill]

I feel TT will be shocked and horrified at the depth of the issues within the system, especially with the bent briefs and property deceptions going on under the radar.

 

As you know, BN, it is happening on an industrial scale. There seem to be a number of law firms, lenders, estate agents, auction houses and banks, some of them German banks, whose names keep cropping up.

[old bill]

TT,

 

I am having problems sending PMs for some reason. If you give me a ring on my landline number sometime on Tuesday, I can provide you with more details.

[brassnecked]

As you know, BN, it is happening on an industrial scale. There seem to be a number of law firms, lenders, estate agents, auction houses and banks, some of them German banks, whose names keep cropping up.

 

I'm sure there is a tie in with the bottom feeder DCA's somewhere, as the Student Loan debacle is also simmering with some mix ups between SLC and loans that went to Thesis aka Stink (Link) Financial and the other loans demised to Erudio, who are backed by Arrow global. I have heard that Erudio are contacting people who were with Thesis, and had loans written off due to passing of time being mithered by Erudio for the written off balances. Wonder if it is an SLC mess up, or they are trawling the written off Thesis book like the bottom feeders with SB loans?

 

The property grabs by various bodies are akin to the Robber Bartons in the 19th Century American West.

[Peterbard]

I am still having problems understanding what you mean by facing private prosecutions, by which I take it you mean criminal prosecution

i am sure it is my fault but the acts you indicate do not, as far as I am aware permit the individual to arrest and commit the suspect for trial bypassing the DPP/ cps , do they ?

 

f so how would this work in practice.

[old bill]

I think you will masonic loyalties are playing a part in the property grabs in some cases, BN. Once you realise bankers, civil servants, judges, lawyers and police officers tend to be members of the brotherhood, it doesn't take a lot to work out what's going on. I know some lower degree masons who have voiced to me that they are very unhappy about what is going on.

[Peterbard]

I think you will masonic loyalties are playing a part in the property grabs in some cases, BN. Once you realise bankers, civil servants, judges, lawyers and police officers tend to be members of the brotherhood, it doesn't take a lot to work out what's going on. I know some lower degree masons who have voiced to me that they are very unhappy about what is going on.

 

Now :wacko:w I understand