Claimform Arrows - HSBC Account card/cheque fraud***Claim Discontinued***

[Transformer]

Received County Court Claim form today and require some urgent advice.

 

My wife has been ignoring debt collectors for a few years now.

 

Someone committed fraud on her account years ago

and the bank refused to accept responsibility

and for a few years since she was paying back the money,

until she decided to stop paying.

 

we have now received a claim form and would like to know what our options are?

 

My wife is adamant that she is going to defend this

and should not have to pay the money as it was fraud committed on her account,

so she shouldn't have to pay it.

 

As far as I'm aware nothing was signed to say that she owed the money

but rather her bank refused to accept responsibility

so she was lumped with the problem.

 

Does she have much of a chance?

[dx100uk]

please fill this in and post the results back here.

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?419198-You-have-received-a-Claim-What-you-need-to-do.-**UPDATED-April-2014**(2-Viewing)-nbsp

 

 

dx

[dx100uk]

was the fraud reported to the police or action fraud?

 

 

has she any letters regarding this still

 

 

how long ago was the fraud

 

 

full history please

 

 

dx

[Bandit127]

She has zero chance if she does not adhere to the timelines for acknowledgement of service and submission of defence.

These timelines are crucial for avoiding judgement by default.

 

Please review this thread and post up (minus any identifying info) accordingly.

 

 

Without this info it will not be possible for the experts to give you precise advice.

 

Edit - got beaten to it by DX . Twice. Must type faster...

[Transformer]

Name of the Claimant ? Arrow Global Limited

Date of issue – top right hand corner of the claim form – this in order to establish the time line you need to adhere to.

 

Date of issue 01/09/14 + 19 days ( 5 day for service + 14 days to acknowledge) = 19/09/14 + 14 days to submit defence = 03/10/14 (33 days in total) -

 

What is the claim for –

 

The claimant clams payment of the overdue balance due from the Defendant

under a contract between the defendant and HSBC dated on or about 17/11/1997

and assigned to the claimant on 13/05/11 in the sum of 9509.00

 

PARTICUALRS a/c NO: XXXXXXXXXX

 

DATE ITEM VALUE

03/07/14 Default Balance 9509.00

Post Refrl Cr NIL

 

TOTAL - 9509.00

What is the value of the claim? 9509.00

Court Fee = 410

Sol Fee = 100

Total = 10019.00

Is the claim for a current or credit/loan account or mobile phone account? A payment due for fraud committed on current account.

When did you enter into the original agreement before or after 2007? 17/11/1997

Has the claim been issued by the original creditor

or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. No, debt purchaser has issued the claim.

 

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? No, don’t recall.

Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? No, don’t recall

Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Default sums” – at least once a year ? Don’t know - never really bothered reading any letters

 

Why did you cease payments:- Refused to pay as the debt was not hers and had been lumped into paying it as HSBC refused to accept responsibility

Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved?

Yes, but then an agreement plan was issued by the bank and followed but nothing signed as far as I’ve been made aware.

Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan?

Yes, the refused to accept responsibility and issued a debt management plan as far as I’m aware

Edited September 4, 2014 by Transformer

[Transformer]

Regarding this case:

 

Was the fraud reported to the police or action fraud? Yes, it was reported to the police who were investigating it and even had a suspect but couldn't get hold of the person.

Has she any letters regarding this still? No, she now doesn't have any of the letters.

 

How long ago was the fraud: This occurred around 2002/ 2003

 

Full history please: wife's bank card which wasn't being used much was stolen during student days.

Someone put cheques into her account made out to her

and then withdrew money before the cheques were cleared.

 

Bank refused to accept responsibility,

police were involved etc but couldn't track the person

although had a strong suspect.

Wife was forced to pay for the whole incident.

 

Please advise where can I find a CCA1974 request template and also confirm I am making a CPR31.14 for a Current Account

[dx100uk]

as its a bank account you cant CCA

 

 

you can CPR that's in the library in the legal section- green tab top left

 

 

I wonder if you can get the incident number off the police?

 

 

an sar to HSBC might well be worthy here.

 

 

shame she got spoofed into paying this for so long else it would be statute barred

[Transformer]

Thanks DX

 

Yes, it is a shame.

However, I'm really concerned about this as our mortgage needs renewing next year in Feb

and we don't want to have a CCJ against our name when we look for other offers.

 

I've asked wife to try and contact police to see if they will still have a record

but its going to be difficult considering she doesn't have the name of the officer or the date as its been such a long time.

 

Regardless, just to be sure:

We're to return the acknowledgement of service tomorrow

and also get the CPR for current accounts sent to claimants solicitors.

 

Would an SAR be worthwhile considering it's normally has to be actioned within 40 days?

[Transformer]

p.s. anyone know what the dates in the particulars relate to?

 

 

i.e. on or about 17/11/97 and assigned to claimant on 13/05/11 and then also the 03/07/14 for default balance (included in details under particualr above)

[theoldrouge]

account opened around 17/11/97, sold to Arrow 13/5/11

[dx100uk]

ack the claim online at MCOL

after registering first

 

 

yes SAR it might be the only way you'll get the letters you need to prove the fraud.

dx

[Transformer]

The account may have set up in 1997 but as I understand this 'debt' had been sold to quite a few Debt Collectors.

 

 

We're quite sure Arrow just started this year?

 

What does the 03/07/14 date relate to?

 

 

Any clues?

[theoldrouge]

debt collectors probably collecting on behalf of Arrow, rather than being "sold" the account

 

something you would need to look at

[AndyOrch]

03/07/14 Default Balance 9509.00

 

The balance at the date of default...Default Notice date or registered default date ...you never know with this lot.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Transformer]

A quick update with this case:

 

Claim form acknowledged,

CPR from the library was sent and

SAR being sent tomorrow as HSBC have been mucking us about with different addresses to send SAR.

 

response received from solicitors is included as an attachment. Please can we have your views on their response?

 

I didn't include their second page as it just states "We trust this clarifies matters, yours Sincerely"

Edited September 12, 2014 by Transformer

[AndyOrch]

Standard template response....every defendant gets the same Transformer.

 

Andy

[Transformer]

Hello,

 

I understand I have until the 3rd Oct (is this correct?) to get my defence in place

and would like someone to cast an eye over it before I submit it please,

as I have picked it from this site and don't quite understand the legal jargon and whether it all applies to this case.

 

Please can you also advise whether I should submit this on the last day or as soon as possible etc?

I've also not mentioned anything about the account fraud and thought I can argue this or show this

if they are able to show the debt exists and dependent on what is received from the SAR etc

 

In the Northampton County Court

 

Claim number xxxxxxxx

 

Between

 

Arrow Global Ltd

 

and

 

xxxxxxxx – Defendant

 

 

DEFENCE:

 

1. The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim are vague and very generic in nature.

 

2. It neither confirms nor denies that it may have in the past had financial dealings with HSBC

and is unaware of what alleged debt the claimant refers to having failed to adequately particularise its claim.

 

3. The defendent can’t ever recall receiving any Notice of Assignment or ever having being approached pre litigation with regards to this alleged debt.

 

4.It’s therefore denied with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant, the Claimant has

failed to provide any evidence of assignment/ balance/ breach requested by CPR 31.14, therefore the Claimant is put to strict proof to:

 

a) show how the Defendant has entered into an agreement with the Claimant;

b) show how the Defendant has reached the amount claimed for;

c) evidence any nature of breach and provide proof of any Default Notice and Notices of Sums in Arrears; and

d) show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim

 

5. On receipt of this claim I requested by way of a CPR 31.14 request for copies of any documents referred to within the Claimants particulars

to establish what the claim is for. To date they have failed to comply to my request.

 

6. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.

 

7. On the alternative, as the Claimant is an assignee of a debt, it is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions

of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer credit Act 1974.

 

8. By reasons of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.

[havinastella]

Nowhere have you said when the last payment was made.

 

When was it?

[Transformer]

Hi havinastella,

 

 

I believe it was around March 2010.

[AndyOrch]

Transformer...I do not advocate you use the above..your defence will be different....you dont need a holding defence.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Transformer]

Any suggestions on how I should defend or what I should include? In almost every thread here the above/ similar to the above type of defence has been used?

 

 

I'm a little lost now...

[AndyOrch]

Yes but their claims do not consist of a fraudulent criminal act.

[Transformer]

Andy

 

Investigations at the time by both the police and the bank proved there was an act of fraud commited

but both agreed that this was not commited by my wife.

 

Unfortunately as her account and card were used she was dumped with the resposnibility of the debt by HSBC.

 

Regardless,

she is now at the mercy of the police and HSBC as she has no paperwork to prove the fraud

and is awaiting to receive something or anything from either which will also show she was not responsible for it.

 

My concerns therefore are:

 

1. If she bases her defence, acknowledging the debt and claims it was a result of fraud

- then she has effetcively done work for the claiment and the onus will be on her to prove that fraud was committed,

she was innocent to it all etc.

 

 

The claiment in this case simply sits back, she does the work and she is viewed as being guilty until she proves herself innocent.

 

2. If however, she has a holding defence. The onus will be on the claiment to prove where this debt has come from

and that she is resposnible for it. I

 

 

t may well be that they do claim this debt was created because of an act of fraud on her account

in which case she will then have to prove herself innocent (like above).

 

 

Either way, this option to me makes them work harder and may provde her with a bit more time to get evidences together etc

 

As I'm not aware of court procedures or what to expect in cases such as this

 

 

I would be grateful, if you or others could share opinions on how we should defend?

 

 

What should the crux of our defence be etc?

[AndyOrch]

Then we submit a joint denial/holding defence......the only point I am making Transformers if you was to just submit your proposed it does not show all the facts of the debt.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Transformer]

I think this is what you meant Andy...could you please have a glance over this and let me have your thoughts now?

1. The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim are very vague and very generic in nature. It confirms it had financial dealings with HSBC in the past and can only assume the alleged ‘debt’ may have been because of fraud committed on the defendants account but the defendant never committed this act or was ever found liable for it.
   
2. The defendant cannot assume what else the alleged debt may be a result of as the claimant has failed to adequately particularise its claim and would therefore like the claimant to show evidence of the debt and particularly where it comes from.
   
3. The defendant can’t ever recall being approached pre litigation with regards to this alleged debt.
   
4. It’s therefore denied with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant, the Claimant has failed to provide any evidence to show the defendant responsible for this alleged debt or in fact that it does owe this alleged debt. Therefore the Claimant is put to strict proof to:
    
   a) show how the Defendant has entered into an agreement with the Claimant;
   b) show how the Defendant has reached the amount claimed for and where from;
   c) evidence any nature of responsibility or fault and provide proof of any Default Notice and Notices of Sums in Arrears as these have never been recieved; and
   d) show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim
   
5. On receipt of this claim I requested by way of a CPR 31.14 request for copies of any documents referred to within the Claimants particulars to establish what the claim is for specifically. To date they have failed to comply to my request.
   
6. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.
   
7. On the alternative, as the Claimant is an assignee of a debt, it is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer credit Act 1974.
   
8. By reasons of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.