Details taken by Revenue Protection Officer

[sawasdee]

Hello,

 

I'm just looking for some advice about an incident that happened with northern rail.

 

I have just moved to the area and was travelling from my local station to Manchester Victoria for the first time. I tried to buy a ticket at the machine however it kept on saying that were no fares available for my journey which completely confused me. Anyway, I was going to buy a ticket at the manned office however the queue was huge and there were only a couple of mins until my train so I just thought I'd get on the train and buy a ticket from the conductor. The train was slightly delayed which meant that I was going to be late for work. Also, the conductor didn't come around meaning I couldn't buy a ticket and as I got off there were people checking everyone's tickets. As I was in such a rush and panicked because I hate being late, I stupidly just flashed an old ticket that I had in my purse and I got pulled up by the revenue protection officer. He took my details and said that northern rail would write to me and he said that they would either let me off or they might charge me.

 

Anyway, I've been scaring myself to death reading forums and things like £1000 fines and prosecution have popped up?!

 

I've been frequently using trains for over 8 years and I have never done anything like this before. I have hundreds of tickets to prove that I always buy a ticket. The same guy also saw me doing the same journey today with a ticket. It was just a stupid mistake because I was in a rush, panicked and was unaware that nobody would come around on the train giving me the opportunity to buy a ticket.

 

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

Thanks

[BazzaS]

Hello,

 

I'm just looking for some advice about an incident that happened with northern rail.

 

I have just moved to the area and was travelling from my local station to Manchester Victoria for the first time. I tried to buy a ticket at the machine however it kept on saying that were no fares available for my journey which completely confused me. Anyway, I was going to buy a ticket at the manned office however the queue was huge and there were only a couple of mins until my train so I just thought I'd get on the train and buy a ticket from the conductor. The train was slightly delayed which meant that I was going to be late for work. Also, the conductor didn't come around meaning I couldn't buy a ticket and as I got off there were people checking everyone's tickets. As I was in such a rush and panicked because I hate being late, I stupidly just flashed an old ticket that I had in my purse and I got pulled up by the revenue protection officer. He took my details and said that northern rail would write to me and he said that they would either let me off or they might charge me.

 

Anyway, I've been scaring myself to death reading forums and things like £1000 fines and prosecution have popped up?!

 

I've been frequently using trains for over 8 years and I have never done anything like this before. I have hundreds of tickets to prove that I always buy a ticket. The same guy also saw me doing the same journey today with a ticket. It was just a stupid mistake because I was in a rush, panicked and was unaware that nobody would come around on the train giving me the opportunity to buy a ticket.

 

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

You don't ALWAYS buy a ticket, what you have posted shows that. Claiming "this was the first time I hadn't" won't help much : the TOC hear that so frequently that it translates to "this is the first time I have been caught" for them.

 

You may usually but a ticket, but that doesn't mean you get let off when you don't buy a ticket and show an old ticket.

 

This suggests you intended to avoid your fare.

 

There is no "travel first, buy later " scheme, and even if there was, you'd be hard pushed to say that was your intent, if you were stopped leaving the station.

 

From the TOC's point of view:

The obligation on you was to buy a ticket before you travelled. Not leaving yourself enough time to buy one at the ticket office isn't sufficient excuse.

 

Having boarded a train without a ticket, the onus is on you to seek out staff to pay, not to wait for them to come to you.

 

You could have gone to offer to pay at your destination.

They could have then taken a Bylaw prosecution but would have found it hard to show you had "intent to avoid your fare" if you went to pay!.

 

By trying to leave without paying & showing an old ticket won't be hard for them to show intent to avoid your fate.

 

Wait until you get a letter from the TOC.

Apologise for your errors (don't try and put the blame on them : it rarely helps!) and ask if you can pay an administrative penalty for their costs and the fare due.

[sawasdee]

Thank you for you help. You make a fair point and I can see how it may have looked like I was trying to get away with buying a ticket. Stupid mistake.

 

Do you think paying an administrative charge and the fare due will be the worst case scenario? I'd be devastated if it was anything more

Thanks

[BazzaS]

Thank you for you help. You make a fair point and I can see how it may have looked like I was trying to get away with buying a ticket. Stupid mistake.

 

Do you think paying an administrative charge and the fare due will be the worst case scenario? I'd be devastated if it was anything more

Thanks

 

That is the likely best case scenario.

 

They don't have to accept your request.

Wait until you get the letter.

Post here when you do, noting (if they say) what they say they might proceed under.

Read other threads to get an idea what to say - there is no "template" or "magic bullet" response but you can get an idea of what to say (& what not to say!)

 

Unless there are other factors, they have a pretty much "Slam dunk" prosecution (if they decide to proceed), based on you

a) not paying your fare, and

b) showing a non-valid ticket when trying to leave the station,

So, you want to give yourself the best chance of avoiding prosecution.

[sawasdee]

Thanks. I will post on here as soon as I get it. Do you know how likely it is that they will actually want to prosecute? I read somewhere that it's actually easier for them just to get the person to pay the administrative fees and fare rather than pursuing this any further. I'm hoping that as this is the first time that I have ever done anything like this then I will just be asked to pay the fees :-/ here's hoping. I realise that what I did was wrong but it was just a silly mistake that I would never do again.

 

That is the likely best case scenario.

 

They don't have to accept your request.

Wait until you get the letter.

Post here when you do, noting (if they say) what they say they might proceed under.

Read other threads to get an idea what to say - there is no "template" or "magic bullet" response but you can get an idea of what to say (& what not to say!)

 

Unless there are other factors, they have a pretty much "Slam dunk" prosecution (if they decide to proceed), based on you

a) not paying your fare, and

b) showing a non-valid ticket when trying to leave the station,

So, you want to give yourself the best chance of avoiding prosecution.

[timbo58]

Just to add: bazzas is correct.

The 'Intent' to avoid is proven by attempting to avoid the fare due by showing a previously expired ticket, this is a 'instrument of avoidance'.

 

You had 3 opportunities of getting a fare before getting to the RPI line (I'm assuming it was an RPI spot check rather than a permanent ticket barrier?):

 

1.at the machine

2. at the ticket office

3. on the train

 

The fact the 'guard didn't come round' will not be accepted -because a) most of the time on busy trains the guard doesn't have the luxury of checking tickets AND doing their safety jobs throughly so the former takes precedence b)some passengers, even with tickets don't bother getting them out (shock horror) and c)some passengers deliberately ignore unless directly challenged request for tickets.

 

and you then after all that didn't 'fess up' when directly challenged (at the ticket line), pretty damning IMHO.

[wazir]

I got caught once on the Metro in Newcastle, it was an honest mistake as I always brought a weekly pass for work and genuinely forgot to get a ticket when getting a metro to the train station to head to London. There are no barriers on the metro, I and got stopped by the inspectors on the platform at the station. I was able to show my previous two weekly tickets and just paid the fine (£5 back then!). But I didn't try to bluff it, so there was no intent. Not the case if you flash an out of date ticket on the way out and it gets spotted. In London there are windows at tube stations and staff at rail stations with barriers to approach to pay the fares on the way out. A bit hard to argue there was no intent if you didn't approach the ticket inspector.

[WOS]

Were you not offered a penalty fare? Did you receive an MG11 form?

[Old-CodJA]

Were you not offered a penalty fare? Did you receive an MG11 form?

 

 

It is always worth remembering that rail staff are never obliged to accept a fare, or issue a penalty fare notice (where used) if evidence exists to allow an offence to be reported for prosecution.

[WOS]

It is always worth remembering that rail staff are never obliged to accept a fare, or issue a penalty fare notice (where used) if evidence exists to allow an offence to be reported for prosecution.

 

I know this already but the reason I ask is because I want to know if it's one or the other. I.e, if you are issued a penalty fare (and pay it within the correct time frame) does that mean the prospect of further prosecution is nullified? Is it then the end of the matter? I want to know because they take your details down when issuing a penalty fare as well.

[BazzaS]

I know this already but the reason I ask is because I want to know if it's one or the other. I.e, if you are issued a penalty fare (and pay it within the correct time frame) does that mean the prospect of further prosecution is nullified? Is it then the end of the matter? I want to know because they take your details down when issuing a penalty fare as well.

 

Were you not persuaded by my answer on the other thread you posted to?

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?431663-ircas-greater-anglia-unfair-penalty-charge&p=4608909#post4608909

 

"Is it definitely true that if you are issued a penalty fare and you successfully pay it within the correct time-frame that you will not be prosecuted later"

 

Yes, if you pay a penalty fare within its timescale you won't be prosecuted, nor run the risk of a criminal record.

 

As my previous reply noted, a penalty fare shouldn't be used where they suspect deliberate evasion.

 

If you really believe your penalty fare to be unfair, why not formally appeal it.

Even if both stages of appeal are then refused : you can still pay it (just be careful of any timescales).

 

What will it take to persuade you?

[Old-CodJA]

I know this already but the reason I ask is because I want to know if it's one or the other. I.e, if you are issued a penalty fare (and pay it within the correct time frame) does that mean the prospect of further prosecution is nullified? Is it then the end of the matter? I want to know because they take your details down when issuing a penalty fare as well.

 

 

As BazzaS has made perfectly clear, if you pay any Penalty Fare within the 21 day period allowed, the offence has been dealt with by administrative process and the file is closed.

 

If you do not pay and if you do not successfully appeal liability within that time, the TOC can cancel the notice and prosecute the original allegation.

 

The TOCs can legally take the details of every traveller who comes to their attention in breach of the rules in this way. A Byelaw offence is evident at the very least in circumstances where a traveller could have paid before boarding and these details are gathered so that if that traveller is found in similar circumstances in the future, it can be shown that they have been previously warned.

 

It is not permissible to keep travelling without tickets intending to receive a Penalty Fare Notice, or to pay only when asked.

[Tj rodgers]

What if you refuse to give them your details they have no powers to arrest you

[timbo58]

Whilst that is technically true TJ Rodgers, there are still measures that can be taken, most barrier lines have access to the BTP or Civilian police both of which can & do have powers to arrest.

 

If it's an auto barrier line a person without a valid ticket would have to force the barrier open (not that hard if you know how to be fair), the staff won't assist IME.

The person refusing to cooperate will be observed and filmed and earmarked for future.

 

In theory -revenue protection officers could arrest once you leave rail premises -'making off without payment' however they won't do this IME.

 

A report will be made, few people can afford to never travel again and a TOC always has the option of barring anyone that won't stick to the conditions and bylaws they agreed to when travelling.

 

So, in essence yes, you don't have to buy a ticket, you don't have to give your details, but the TOC don't have to carry you and the police can appear at any point and spoil it too.

 

Not really that good advice IMHO, besides which the OP of this thread headed it with the fact 'details were taken' so your query is a bit pointless in relation to this thread.

[Old-CodJA]

What if you refuse to give them your details they have no powers to arrest you

 

 

Depends on the circumstances.

 

Section 5.2 of The Regulation of Railways Act (1889) does confer a specific power of arrest for the railway inspector if a traveller has;

 

i) failed to show a valid ticket indicating the fare has been previously paid

ii) failed to pay the fare due on demand

iii) failed to give his name and address

 

Giving a false name and/or address is a separate offence under Section 5.3.c of the same Act and is sufficient to constitute a failure in respect of S. 5.2.

 

TOCs do train their inspectors to avoid using that power (unless absolutely necessary as a last resort), but the authority does remain on the statute book (in my time as an inspector, I used it more than once).

 

So, if the traveller has no valid ticket and fails or refuses to pay and fails or refuses their name and address, they are liable to arrest and the Penalty Fare is not an appropriate response in those circumstances.

 

In practice, if arrest has to be resorted to, this will normally be effected by calling for Police assistance and advising the attending officer why the suspect should be detained and by quoting the regulation. This usually results in the Police Officer obtaining the errant travellers' details for the inspector to report and the traveller can then be de-arrested. If that traveller is foolish enough to refuse his name & address at that point then arrest and further action is a mere formality.

[timbo58]

Thanks OC, I only ever had to stop someone after leaving the barrier line once and thankfully a BTP bod was close by to affect an arrest.

 

TJR- if you or anyone else doesn't want to give an officer of the railway your details you don't have to provided you:

 

a) Don't travel by railway

OR

b) make sure you have a valid ticket and adhere to the regulations & bylaws governing them.

 

If you don't fancy a or b get used to being asked on a regular basis.

 

FWIW the worst passengers I ever had was those who thought they were above showing a ticket/putting it through a barrier 'as it was too much trouble' -they are the ones that allow the regular far evader to get away with it when they can, as a passenger guard it was a regular occurrence for me to turn back round at the end of a coach or 1/2 way through and start a FULL ticket check as I knew full well lots who had just got on were choosing not to show tickets.

A PITA for their fellow passengers, staff and ultimately themselves.

[sawasdee]

Hello,

 

I have finally received a letter from Northern Rail regarding the incident.

 

They have requested that I provide my details and they have given me the opportunity to make any comments.

 

I am just going to provide an honest account of the incident, there is nothing more that I can do. I don't want this to go any further and just want it to be all over. Do you think if I provide them with an account of what happened then I will be able to just pay the £150 for this all to be over?

 

Thanks

[sawasdee]

Also, as noted in my first post, the ticket machine kept on saying 'Tickets are not available for this journey' even though I was only trying to a buy a simple single ticket..I took a picture of this on my phone, do you think I should include this in my statement or should I just stick with apologising profusely?!

[rebel11]

Hi sawasdee

 

What does the letter say regards the incident?

 

Hello,

 

I have finally received a letter from Northern Rail regarding the incident.

 

They have requested that I provide my details and they have given me the opportunity to make any comments.

 

I am just going to provide an honest account of the incident, there is nothing more that I can do. I don't want this to go any further and just want it to be all over. Do you think if I provide them with an account of what happened then I will be able to just pay the £150 for this all to be over?

 

Thanks

[BazzaS]

Also, as noted in my first post, the ticket machine kept on saying 'Tickets are not available for this journey' even though I was only trying to a buy a simple single ticket..I took a picture of this on my phone, do you think I should include this in my statement or should I just stick with apologising profusely?!

 

That (at best) shows that you initially looked at purchasing a ticket. You might include it as evidence that your later actions were out of character for you : I'd suggest NOT phrasing it in a way that looks like you are trying to use it as as excuse. The 'tone' of your reply is best as contrite, and 'uncharacteristic error by you', rather than "looking for an excuse / it is the TOC's fault", which rarely goes well!.

 

Hello,

 

I have finally received a letter from Northern Rail regarding the incident.

 

They have requested that I provide my details and they have given me the opportunity to make any comments.

 

I am just going to provide an honest account of the incident, there is nothing more that I can do. I don't want this to go any further and just want it to be all over. Do you think if I provide them with an account of what happened then I will be able to just pay the £150 for this all to be over?

 

Thanks

 

They have you "bang to rights" if they are set on prosecuting. I can't see how being honest as to the circumstances can make it any worse for you.

So, be honest, contrite, (if any EXTRA ....) stress the EXTRA impact on you of any prosecution, and ask if you can pay any administrative costs and the fare as an alternative to prosecution.

 

See if anyone else has anything to add in the next day or so ... give yourself the best chance of them agreeing the alternative to prosecution (since you can't make them!, you want to stack the odds in your favour as best as possible).

[sawasdee]

Hello,

 

It just says that an evidential report has been submitted to the debt and prosecutions unit about the incident and that before the company proceeds further with its investigations then they would like to give me the opportunity to respond with an explanation concerning it. They also state that should legal proceedings be invoked, in addition to any fines imposed by the court there will be an application for a minimum of £150 as a contribution to our costs. Then there's space for me to complete my details.

 

Thanks

 

Thanks

[rebel11]

Two separate issues, 'Tickets are not available for this journey' is a customer service issue. write to the CEO.

 

Write a Formal Letter of Complaint, mark it as such. Explain what's happened (tried to buy a ticket - ticket machine malfunctioning - came up with message), how they have let you down (couldn't buy ticket through auto machine, very long queue at counter) and what you want them to do. Send the picture you have on your phone. You could state that this has led to a letter from the rail company which could lead to prosecution.

 

You did make an error of judgement, but you know that.

 

Send it to:-

 

Mr Alex Hynes

Managing Director

Northern Rail

[email protected]

 

Also, as noted in my first post, the ticket machine kept on saying 'Tickets are not available for this journey' even though I was only trying to a buy a simple single ticket..I took a picture of this on my phone, do you think I should include this in my statement or should I just stick with apologising profusely?!

[rebel11]

Hi sawasdee

 

You can now consider writing to the company as you have the reference number, in your letter/form quote the Ref Number on the letter. An example of a letter can be found in post no.18 in the link below. Amend it accordingly so you quote the correct byelaw in the letter and that applies to your case. Don't copy the letter.Your letter/form needs to have more substance and be personalized to your particular case. Convey that you regret your actions and are apologetic. If there are any mitigating circumstances state them, although they don't have to consider them. Send it Recorded Delivery.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o.uk...ly-travel-card

 

 

 

 

Hello,

 

It just says that an evidential report has been submitted to the debt and prosecutions unit about the incident and that before the company proceeds further with its investigations then they would like to give me the opportunity to respond with an explanation concerning it. They also state that should legal proceedings be invoked, in addition to any fines imposed by the court there will be an application for a minimum of £150 as a contribution to our costs. Then there's space for me to complete my details.

 

Thanks

 

Thanks