Possible fabrication of documents

[Tinkerb]

Hoping someone can offer some guidance.

 

Am in the processing of a claim for constructive unfair dismissal, and having finally received the respondents response, it is evident that they may falsify documents, i.e. produce letters that have never been sent! If I am right, and they do this, is there any way of proving they've been falsely produced, and were never sent?

[Emmzzi]

ask for proof of posting

[Tinkerb]

Thanks Emmzzi. Do you think that would be sufficient? Is it not reasonable for them to say they relied on delivery? They're referring to letters sent, which certainly have never been received, and I suspect they don't even exist. If they say they were sent, it's my word against theirs as to their existence. I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time someone has claimed not to receive a letter, when in fact they have.

[becky2585]

You would need to ask for an order for specific disclosure of the meta data - it will tell you when a document has been created and amended, if relevant.

[Tinkerb]

Thanks Becky, I'm not sure I understand, precisely. I had thought that any document created on a pc will have 'properties' showing creation, modified, printing dates, but have no idea how that information could be made available to the ET.

[steampowered]

The first step is to just ask them to produce a copy of the letter. If they can't, that will count against their contention that the letter was sent.

[Tinkerb]

Thanks steampowered. I guess I'll know what letters they are 'claiming were sent' when I receive a list of the documents they are going to rely on.

[Tinkerb]

I've just noticed that the ET3 has several sections left blank, info such as the employer size in GB, and my rates of pay. It seems pernickety to point that out, as the ET have accepted the response (filed minutes before the 28 day deadline), but could it be relevant?

[Emmzzi]

size of company is relevant in things like assessing what is a "reasonable" adjustment. Pay can be determined by yourself, may or may not be relevant.

[Tinkerb]

Thanks Emmzzi. My problem I guess is, as the tribunal have accepted the response, is there anything I could, or should do?

[Tinkerb]

Sorry, forgot to add. The ET3 has been completed by a solicitor, so as the respondent is professionally represented, they should know better.

[Emmzzi]

minor admin niggle designed to annoy you; keep your eye on the prize.

[Tinkerb]

love your way with words. Thank you

[becky2585]

The law states that only certain parts of the ET3 need to be filled in - the ET only needs certain prescribed information at this stage. The two bits they left off are not legally required, so no breach there!

[Tinkerb]

Thanks Becky, I didn't know that, just thought that it needed to be correctly completed.

[Tinkerb]

Update: I've just received the 'list of documents' as defined by the case management order, and as I feared, the respondent does indeed list a letter that I do not believe was in existence until now. I know I can request a copy of the letter, but other than that, I've no idea on how to handle this. Can someone advise please?

[Pusillanimous]

As you have to agree the bundle, you should write to them asking for disclosure of this document. Inform them you wish to dispute the document once you have seen it and are still not satisfied (i.e., notify the respondents to put it in a "disputed documents folder", to argue about it with the respondents before the judge before the hearing).

[Tinkerb]

Thank you Pusillanimous, I'm absolutely certain I can guess the contents of the letter, and it will be the only thing that they are relying on in their defence. However, I suspect it will have been created specifically for this purpose, ie in the last couple of weeks, and not months ago. As I understand it, from previous advice, I need to apply for specific disclosure regarding the metadata of the document, which hopefully will prove my suspicions, however I don't know how I do that.

[Pusillanimous]

Ask for it in a letter "within 14 days". If not forthcoming, make a formal application to the tribunal, remembering to state you have copied in the other side (and do so, as per regulations) for the metadata, which will show all the modifications to the document, with dates. Spell out your suspicion.

 

You will soon find out from their response if there is any basis for it.

[Tinkerb]

Again, thank you. So, just to confirm I've understood correctly, I can write to the respondent (represented by a solicitor), requesting them to disclose the metadata of the relevant document, and if the fail to disclose it, I can request the tribunal to order the disclosure? If I have to make the request to the tribunal, do I need to make reference to any section of the Employment Tribunals Act ?

[Pusillanimous]

No, just say you want disclosure. It's a good idea to explain why, and how it is relevant to your case.

[Tinkerb]

I thought requesting disclosure would just give me a copy of the document?

[Tinkerb]

Good morning. Can I please quickly clarify, as I'm about to finalise my letter ready to send electronically first thing in the morning: is asking for the metadata 'disclosure' or 'specific disclosure'?

 

Sorry, having read through the thread again, it 's making more sense to me now.

[Tinkerb]

Update, and further help required please. I requested the disputed documents in their native electronic form, but what they provided is a PDF file where paper copies of the documents had been scanned in! I have reiterated the request for them in their native format, but so far, this has not been forthcoming. Their solicitor has said 'they are awaiting instructions from their client (I hope they're not holding their breath).

 

I need to ensure I get these documents, which could, if my suspicions are correct, be the crux of my case. But I'm really not sure how to go about it. I have no idea of the correct way of requesting an order from the tribunal, so can someone help please? I'm worried that I'll make a technical mistake in my request thus giving the other side a genuine reason to object. The last thing I want is to lose this purely on a technicality.

Thank you all for your continued help and support.

[Pusillanimous]

Write to the solicitor, or direct to the tribunal complaining they have not disclosed what you requested and ask for a disclosure order. Spell out what you want. Label it clearly, "Application" with case reference.

 

The tribunal will ask the other side for their comments.

 

Don't be surprised if they say they only have it in pdf. If fabricated, as you say, they are hardly going to disclose its true origins.

 

You will just have to make a fuss about it.