Loading bay and cctv camera

[bobo1964]

I seriously need advise on this issue>

 

 

I parked in a loading bay to pickup an order from a shop at about 20:45hrs,

 

 

it was a side street off kingsland road.

 

 

the sign says "loading bay" with a pictures of a man pushing a trolley.

 

 

I checked the sign because of the time but nothing else was stated on the sign.

 

 

because of the time of the night, I did not think much of it.

 

 

I received a PCN notice couple of days later,"penalty charge notice for parking in a loading bay without loading. cctv camera show no loading."

 

 

I made a representation, on the grounds that the sign does not indicate any restricted time to park or not to park.

 

My representation was rejected:

because in the absebce of any times of a sign plate is enforceable at all time.

 

Is this right? should the sign not indicate times even if at all time?

[SabreSheep]

Sadly if there are no time restrictions then it is considered to be in force 24 hours a day,

 

Same would be seen for a Bus Lane etc

[Jamberson]

Yes, it's right. Why didn't you appeal on the basis you were loading?

[mapadale]

I had this a couple of yeas ago, when I was parked in a loading bay outside McDonald's and was dropping equipment off at a local business in a car.

 

If you can prove that at the time, you was loading (picking up an order, as long as it's not retail) then you can get the PCN quashed.

 

However as stated, if no time is present then it is a 24 hour notice. However one thing you can challenge is the legality of the PCN, a PCN should under no circumstance contain the word fine. If it does, then the PCN is illegal unless generated by the local magistrates court. As a court is the only organisation, that is allowed to use the word fine.

[Jamberson]

PCNs never use the word fine - they aren't fines. They are Penalty Charges.

[mapadale]

PCNs never use the word fine - they aren't fines. They are Penalty Charges.

Councils are notorious for writing letters to you, stating that you need to pay the "Fine". Though the PCN will never have those words on it, the council letters do. Once you receive the council letter stating this, the actually PCN then becomes illegal.

[Jamberson]

Sorry but that's rubbish. I have never seen a letter with the word fine on, and even if they did write it down (very unlikely - staff don't usually write letters - they are all pre-scripted into the computer), it wouldn't make the PCN illegal. It might be grounds to contest it, and you may or may not win if you went to an adjudicator, but there's nothing illegal about any of this.

[mapadale]

Sorry but that's rubbish. I have never seen a letter with the word fine on, and even if they did write it down (very unlikely - staff don't usually write letters - they are all pre-scripted into the computer), it wouldn't make the PCN illegal. It might be grounds to contest it, and you may or may not win if you went to an adjudicator, but there's nothing illegal about any of this.

It's a shame that I recently went through all my paper work and got rid of the countless letters written to the council over the facts of advising the PCN as a fine in a letter. As I've won various PCN incidents against Sheffield City Council over incorrectly stating a PCN as a fine and not had to pay a single one of them because of it. Next you will be telling me, that councils don't write their own Court summons either!!

[Jamberson]

The fact that you mention court summons tells me you don't know about PCNs. There is no court summons, and no illegality. It is a decriminalised system with no court involvement (other than rubber stamping bailiff applications).

 

It's pretty pointless us arguing about it. The OP won't get a letter saying "fine" but if he does, he can appeal it on that basis. That much we agree on.

[mapadale]

The fact that you mention court summons tells me you don't know about PCNs. There is no court summons, and no illegality. It is a decriminalised system with no court involvement (other than rubber stamping bailiff applications).

 

It's pretty pointless us arguing about it. The OP won't get a letter saying "fine" but if he does, he can appeal it on that basis. That much we agree on.

I mention court summons, because you called me a liar over information that I know as fact, so was pointing out to you something else that most claim is false and is also fact. I don't read, I action and have won on many occasions against councils for various things and one of those things is the legality of a PCN when a council reefers to it as a fine.

[Jamberson]

Well, I didn't call you a liar. Show me where I ever used that word in relation to you or anybody. Never.

 

I don't think you are lying, I just think you are wrong. It is just plain wrong to talk about a PCN being illegal because of a word in a subsequent letter. And I've no idea what court summons you are referring to. Show us one of your court summonses.

[Guest]

general q's guys if dont mind (soz, bobo for the brief thread hijack )

 

if loading on double yellows (no loading bay), and there is one yellow line on the kerb (which afaik means there shld be times (two lines meaning no loading at any time), if there is then no signage, then any subsequent ticket wld be void?

 

also, what is the situ re dropping someone off in a loading bay with or without time restrictions. what is the def of 'loading'?

 

and, if a council parking scheme uses the word 'fine' on the signage eg by the meter/ticket machine does that make any subsequent ticket invalid?

 

thanks

[Jamberson]

The yellow mark on the kerb indicates a loading ban, and it does need to be signed. However I think there are some circumstances where it will be in a no-loading area, and it wouldn't necessarily need its own individual sign. I guess a specific PCN under those circumstances would need to be looked into. Potentially it could be invalid if the signage is absent.

 

Dropping someone off is not classed as unloading so an appeal on that basis wouldn't work. The definition is something like removing bulky goods which could not be carried easily - you could look around for the exact wording, but that's the gist of it.

 

No to the question about the word "fine" although it is grounds for appeal - and an adjudicator would ultimately make a decision on the case.

[Michael Browne]

also, what is the situ re dropping someone off in a loading bay with or without time restrictions. what is the def of 'loading'?

 

Boarding/alighting is an exemption in loading bays

[Jamberson]

Is it? Are you sure?

[Michael Browne]

Yes.

 

Exemption applies to resident bays, goods loading bay, loading bays, business bays, car club bays, m/c bay, doctors bay, disabled bays

 

Doesn't apply to suspended bays, diplomatic bays, taxi rank bay, bus stop/stand

[Guest]

cheers guys.

the brief guide had read (which parking guide 2012) said that loading on double yellows was usually allowed unless yellow kerb markings - 1 marking being time restricted requiring signage of times accordingly, 2 markings meaning no loading at any time. wondered if it was still up to date, and if non signage compliance then any subsequent ticket wld likely be invalid/void ie appealable

 

Boarding/alighting is an exemption in loading bays

cheers. thats good news re dropping/picking up someone re loading bay as just done that today where cctv is rife. saw this thread, and wondered if might get pursued!

 

ps, presume then also that drop/pick up on double yellows (no bay), whether one or two kerb markings is also allowed?