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    • In the autumn of 2020, I decided to change energy supplier from British Gas to EDF. This went through with no apparent problem but after approximately two weeks, I received a letter from EDF saying "Sorry you're leaving us". I contacted EDF to say that I was not leaving and was told not to worry about it, that they would resolve it and to carry on with monthly payments to EDF.    Approximately 2 weeks later, I received a text message from EDF to say, "Sorry you're leaving us". I contacted EDF again to say I was not leaving and was again told not to worry and that they would sort it out. Two weeks later I had a third message, "Sorry you're leaving us...". I contacted EDF again, but this time raised a complaint because it was becoming stressful and annoying. I asked them to explain why this kept happening. After some investigation by EDF, I was told that Scottish Power was trying to "erroneously take over" my gas supply. I confirmed that I wanted to remain with EDF and did not want to move to Scottish Power. I was advised to forward any bill sent by Scottish Power to EDF so that they could deal with it, and not pay it. However, I have never received any bill from Scottish Power until July 2022.   I was then contacted again by EDF to say that Scottish Power was trying to take over my supply because my gas meter was registered at my neighbour's address, on the energy suppliers' national database. I requested that EDF change the details for me so that I could remain an EDF customer but was told that only the existing supplier could change the details and that I would have to contact Scottish Power and request that they change the details. I reminded EDF that I had never asked Scottish Power to supply me and that as my current provider, EDF should take on this responsibility, but I was told on a number of occasions that EDF could not do this and that I would have to contact Scottish Power myself.   I have since learned that I should never have been told this. Ofgem states that if a supplier tries to erroneously transfer a supply, the two suppliers involved should communicate with each other to resolve the problem as soon as possible, and not involve the consumer. However, this is where the real problems started. I contacted Scottish Power at least 20 times over the course of 2 months, by email, online chat and telephone and spent a considerable amount of time trying to resolve this issue. The main problem was that Scottish Power refused to discuss it with me because "I did not have an account with Scottish Power". I explained on numerous occasions that I did not want an account with Scottish Power and that I just wanted them to change the location of my gas meter on the national database, but they persistently refused. Scottish Power was generally very poor at contacting me, I was doing most of the running. My neighbour, who is supplied by Scottish Power and has been for many years, said that this has been an issue in the past but Scottish Power has never resolved it. He said that when I asked EDF to take the supply back from Scottish Power, his supply was also erroneously transferred to EDF against his wishes, causing even more problems. During this occasion, Scottish Power compensated my neighbour but still refused to assist me.   I have evidence of some of the correspondence between me and Scottish Power but not all because much was over the phone and on online chat. Each time I contacted Scottish Power a new member of staff dealt with it and so they had to record the same notes each time, considerably lengthening the process. I asked if Scottish Power could allocate someone to own the complaint but because I did not have an account with Scottish Power, this was not an option. After numerous emails to Scottish Power from my neighbour, who was trying to assist with the situation - sending his meter details, my meter details and asking that the database be updated with my address - he was asked to send photos of my meter to Scottish Power. I had already been asked this by Scottish Power and had duly sent them but received no response. My neighbour then forwarded the photos by his email to Scottish Power and they replied asking him to ask me to re-send the photos directly, which I did for a second time. This was the last correspondence I had with Scottish Power about the matter. They did not contact me again.   EDF contacted me to say that they had concluded the matter from their end and requested that they close the complaint, to which I agreed. A meter reader visited sometime after to read both meters and I (naively) assured myself that the details had been changed and that EDF had resumed supply. My bill increased, and my meters were then routinely read by a visiting meter reader every quarter. My last correspondence with Scottish Power was on 9th November 2020, when I emailed the photos of my meter for the second time.   Twenty months later, towards the end of July 2022, I was on holiday with my family. I came home on 13th August to find 6 letters on the doormat from Scottish Power demanding £2134.89 for gas supply. They are addressed to "The Occupier" so they have obviously not referred to my previous correspondence or attempted to ever resolve the initial request to change my details. This is contrary to recommendations made by Ofgem's "Erroneous Transfers" paper produced in 2016. One of the letters even says, "Welcome to your new home" as though they have no knowledge of the correspondence 2 years ago. I have received another bill from Scottish Power today demanding payment and threatening referral to a debt collection agency if it is not paid. The above Ofgem paper states that erroneous takeovers should be dealt with by the two companies concerned and not by the consumer at any stage. But in my case, it has been me doing all the running, all the phoning, emailing, talking online, etc. Neither supplier has really done that much and I believe that EDF should never have told me that I should try and resolve this with Scottish Power; and when I contacted Scottish Power, they should also have taken ownership of the problem jointly with EDF and resolved it directly with EDF.   I have taken legal advice and been advised that as this is a dispute between two energy suppliers rather than between myself and a supplier, it is more appropriate for me to contact both suppliers, summarise past actions undertaken by all parties, and request that the supply be transferred back to my original supplier. This sounds hunky dory but doesn't actually help. Two questions arise in my mind... 1. Do i have to pay the bill at all given that it is addressed to "The occupier"?  2. Should I provide my name in my complaint (not yet sent) or simply refer to myself as "The Occupier"? 2. I know I can refer to back-billing guidance but my instinct tells me I shouldn't have to pay any of this bill because the supply was taken over without my consent, I tried numerous times to resolve it to no effect, and was led to believe that I was then paying for the gas due to the actions of both companies. Does anybody think I have a case here and any suggestions about how to pursue it?   Many thanks if you have managed to read this far. Even more thanks if you have any advice :-)  
    • several other threads here too they will give up  just retail loss scammers, nothing ever goes back to the retailers anyway straight in their pocket straight down the pub!!   just like DCA's.   dont forget your cars v5c!! too   you MUST write to anyone one your credit file or banks etc, esp if you have debts that dont show that you might have last used/paid within say 7 yrs esle you'll get backdoor CCJ's.
    • Our produce is likely to be smaller, odd-looking, or even leathery after the hot, dry weather.View the full article
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Personal Guarantee


drewalan
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Hi all,

 

unfortunately my company has gone insolvent due to a larger company going under on us

and obviously we can not afford to pay creditors!

 

im sure you have heard this many times,

 

my question is one particular builders merchant has sent me a copy of a ''credit application form'' with my signature

 

but also sent me a 2nd page and at the bottom that states ''Directors Guarantee'' which i can not remember seeing nor signing..!!

 

is this valid?

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Thread moved to the appropriate forum.

 

Welcome to CAG drewalan ....advice should be on its way shortly.

 

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Hi all, unfortunately my company has gone insolvent due to a larger company going under on us and obviously we can not afford to pay creditors! im sure you have heard this many times, my question is one particular builders merchant has sent me a copy of a ''credit application form'' with my signature but also sent me a 2nd page and at the bottom that states ''Directors Guarantee'' which i can not remember seeing nor signing..!! is this valid?

 

Has the second page got your signature on it?

If so, do you think you signed it and have forgotten, or are you claiming it is a forgery?

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Has the second page got your signature on it?

If so, do you think you signed it and have forgotten, or are you claiming it is a forgery?

 

Thank you for the reply, no the second page has not got my signature on!

Edited by drewalan
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Without your signature they have no evidence that you have ever seen or agreed to the terms of that second page. As the (potential) claimant, it's entirely up to them to prove that you did, not for you to prove that you didn't. A simple 'never seen that page before therefore not liable' should be sufficient.

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

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Without your signature they have no evidence that you have ever seen or agreed to the terms of that second page. As the (potential) claimant, it's entirely up to them to prove that you did, not for you to prove that you didn't. A simple 'never seen that page before therefore not liable' should be sufficient.

 

Thank you for the reply ''reallymadwoman'' it sums up what i thought :)

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You're welcome.

 

You may have to be quite firm in sticking to your guns and not getting involved in letter tennis,

a tactic sometimes employed in an effort to wear someone down until they'll agree to anything to put an end to it.

 

If you get a response you might want to write one more letter stating that in the absence of your signature on a personal guarantee

you are not prepared to enter into any further correspondence on the matter,

then ignore them unless they actually issue a court claim.

 

Of course you will also want everything in writing and you will know you're under no obligation to speak to anyone on the phone.

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

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Your welcome.

You may have to be quite firm in sticking to your guns and not getting involved in letter tennis, a tactic sometimes employed in an effort to wear someone down until they'll agree to anything to put an end to it. If you get a response you might want to write one more letter stating that in the absence of your signature on a personal guarantee you are not prepared to enter into any further correspondence on the matter, then ignore them unless they actually issue a court claim.

Of course you will also want everything in writing and you will know you're under no obligation to speak to anyone on the phone.

 

Thank you Reallymadwomen, when you say in writing most correspondence are sent via email will this still count as been documented or do you think i should actually write a letter and sign it..?

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In this instance I think a proper letter is called for - you might at some point have to produce it in court, and I think most people still take more notice of snail mail than email.

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

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In this instance I think a proper letter is called for - you might at some point have to produce it in court, and I think most people still take more notice of snail mail than email.

 

Much appreciated for your time and reply's reallymadwomen

 

many thanks again

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I sent them this.........

 

I write to you with regards to the Credit Application form Signed by myself xxxxxxxxx

 

It is not possible for myself to recognise this as a credible directors guarantee for a number of reasons and feel we are right to therefore challenge its validity.

 

1) Misrepresentation - the document is headed 'Credit Account Application Form (Limited Company)' and for it to be a personal guarantee is misrepresentation by you the creditor

 

 

2) I have never seen the attachment page before therefore i am not liable.

 

3) It is my belief that the guarantee does not meet the reasonableness test because i had no intention of entering into a personal guarantee and I had no knowledge of or participation in such. Nor did I sign or see any witness statements on the document.

 

A copy of this email will be sent in writing to your office address and any further communication should be and will be in writing.

 

 

There reply was.......

 

We refer to the recent email you have sent to xxxxx in our Sales Ledger Department, and would draw your attention to the following:-

 

 

1. You signed our Credit Account Application Form clearly where it is written ‘I/We confirm acceptance of the conditions of sale of xxxxxx Supplies as attached’. The Directors Guarantee is a standard clause within the conditions of sale, and by signing these conditions you have accepted them. Therefore this cannot be misrepresentation.

 

2. The Terms and Conditions are attached to the application form. Therefore they were in your possession before you returned the form to us. You are bound by what you have signed.

 

3. By signing the form you have accepted liability personally for the cost of goods and services provided.

 

 

If you are unable to pay the debt in one lump sum, there is a possibility we would agree to payment in instalments. However, we must know this before we submit our claim to the County Court. Failure to respond to this email today will result in County Court procedures being initiated.

 

what are your thoughts

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Personally I would have kept it much simpler to avoid inviting a response of the nature you got.

 

Is there anything on the piece of paper you did sign regarding personal guarantees?

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

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Personally I would have kept it much simpler to avoid inviting a response of the nature you got.

 

Is there anything on the piece of paper you did sign regarding personal guarantees?

 

No nothing specific to a Directors/personal Guarantee only on the 1st page i signed for a credit application

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Post a letter to them saying

 

I deny absolutely ever having seen or having brought to my attention the document previously supplied described as 'xxxx' and I deny absolutely ever being requested to provide or agreeing to provide a director's guarantee. In the absence of any proof that I did so agree, I am unable to accept any liability for the alleged debt. Furthermore, unless you are able to provide such proof I am not willing to enter into any further correspondence and in particular no further emails on the subject will be accepted.

 

This means that to respond to you someone has to actually write a letter which takes an awful lot more effort than firing off an email, also you're making it absolutely clear you're not going to just roll over and pay up. They could chance their arm a bit further and try threats of court or even court, but without proof that you agreed to a personal guarantee they're up the creek without a paddle and they know it.

Out of interest, when you signed the application did you get a copy of the paperwork, or did you get a copy of any actual agreement?

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

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Post a letter to them saying

 

I deny absolutely ever having seen or having brought to my attention the document previously supplied described as 'xxxx' and I deny absolutely ever being requested to provide or agreeing to provide a director's guarantee. In the absence of any proof that I did so agree, I am unable to accept any liability for the alleged debt. Furthermore, unless you are able to provide such proof I am not willing to enter into any further correspondence and in particular no further emails on the subject will be accepted.

 

This means that to respond to you someone has to actually write a letter which takes an awful lot more effort than firing off an email, also you're making it absolutely clear you're not going to just roll over and pay up. They could chance their arm a bit further and try threats of court or even court, but without proof that you agreed to a personal guarantee they're up the creek without a paddle and they know it.

Out of interest, when you signed the application did you get a copy of the paperwork, or did you get a copy of any actual agreement?

 

Thank you so much for the response, i never did receive any copy of the paperwork or agreement!

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OK - so the guarantee is contained in a separate page of terms and conditions, which are referred to in the form you signed?

 

 

If this is the case, the dispute will come down to convincing the judge on a balance of probabilities whether or not the terms and conditions were provided to you at the time you signed the form.

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