Harlands and CRS problems

[wilsonmg]

Hi TwinMum1,

 

how have you got on with this. We are currently getting BS from CRS for the same situation, after moving house earlier in the year (5 months ago) we assumed the membership was cancelled. The other day the 5 months worth of post from the old house was passed onto us, and yip, Harlands had a number of letters with penalties, now CRS are asking over £200 !! (to which they can whistle for)

 

I plan to send the same letter Slick132 drafted for you (or as close to it), therefore I was wondering if you had made any further progress ?

 

many thanks

 

Mart

[slick132]

Hi Wilsonmg and welcome to CAG

 

Your post has been moved from Twinmum's thread to your own new thread here.

 

Do not contact the gym, Harlands or CRS by phone - keep everything in writing only.

 

If you didn't inform Harlands or the gym of your house move, the m/ship would continue to run. You need to give Harlands your new address. Otherwise you could find a few months later that they took court action and won because you failed to defend. You'd then be left with a CCJ for 6 years unless you got it Set Aside, which could take ages to sort.

 

Please give us some info about your case so we can assist :-

 

1. When did you join.

2. For how long.

3. How far away from the gym did you move.

4. Did you inform anyone of the move.

5. Have you spoken or written to the gym, Harlands or CRS since.

 

You should have seen from other threads that we consider Harlands/CRS Admin Fees to be unlawful penalties which you should refuse to pay.

 

When we have answers from you, we can suggest how to proceed.

 

[wilsonmg]

Hi Slick132,

 

many thanks for the welcome.

 

In regards to your questions. (the membership was my partners, before she moved in early March this year)

 

1. the first payment was 28/11/2012 for 12 month contract

2. 12 month, then looks to turn into 'rolling' monthly payments

3. Not far, the cancellation was due to not actually using the gym and had continue to pay for well over 12 months (last payment made was Jan 14), cancelled DD February 2014 I think. (will try and double check when she gets in)

4. did not inform of the move. She had not actually moved house until early March, therefore had classed the membership as fulfilled (as had paid membership for well over 12 months) and thought nothing else of it

5. Not spoken to Gym or Harlands. However spoken to CRS due to continuous text messages (what an obnoxious individual). the initial reason for not contacting was due to we had no idea who they where, or this was all about !! to be honest we just thought it was text SPAM. This was about June/July time. They now have our new address

 

it was then we went back to the old address to see if they had any mail. They did have the following...

 

28 March - letter from Harlands saying we owe £9.99 outstanding subscription, £9.99 cancellation period and a £25 default fee (total = £44.98)

30th April - Letter from Harlands saying we owe £19.98 outstanding subscription, £9.99 cancellation period and £50 default fee (total now = £79.97)

15th May - Letter from CRS demanding payment of £104.97 to be paid no later than the 25th May !!

5th August - Letter from CRS (to current address) demanding £207.47, of which £102.50 are their 'Fee's'

 

As with the other Threads I have read. There is a clause in the terms saying 'one month cancellation period', that we forgot about. Therefore to be reasonable I would go as far as paying the "£9.99 cancellation period". However everything else is taking liberties. (this is the most polite way I could put it)

 

look forward to your view

 

wilsonmg

[renegadeimp]

Well, you can ignore their fee's for a start.

[wilsonmg]

Well, you can ignore their fee's for a start.

 

Thats the plan

[slick132]

Hi Wilson,

 

As you've already said, you should have given them a month's notice and paid a final month's fee. You can write saying;-

 

I cancelled my DD mandate on or around xxdate due to moving home. This is adequate notice of my desire to cancel the gym agreement as per the High Court ruling in The OFT v Ashbourne Mgt Svs Ltd in 2011.

 

I will not pay you any Admin or Cancellation Fees as these are penalties that are unlawful and unenforceable.

 

I now realise I should have given a month's notice and to remedy this, I offer to pay you a final month's fee of £9.99.

 

If you confirm in writing that you'll accept this amount in settlement of all that I owe, I will pay you promptly. If you fail to accept my offer within 14 days or you demand any other payment, I will pay you nothing and my offer will be withdrawn.

 

See how they respond and let us know please.

 

[wilsonmg]

Hi Slick132,

 

that was pretty much what I had drafted based on the other information in the CAG (mostly from your goodself)

 

I do have one question though... should send this to the Gym, Harlands or CRS ? (or all three)

 

wilson

[renegadeimp]

Harlands and the gym would be my guess.

[slick132]

Send it to Harlands only.

 

Use RM Signed For delivery, or get a free Certificate of Posting at the PO counter.

 

[wilsonmg]

Hi all,

 

well I sent the letter as advised via recorded delivery

 

Low and behold today we received the general threat letter back. basically threatening legal action or sending it out to external agents .....

 

the way the letter has been written it clearly looks like a template as it makes no reference to the letter we sent offering to pay the £9.99 that is all we deem is owing.

 

my view of the next step is to write one last time to highlight our offer and if they don't respond with a clear response showing they had considered our offer, then they can go and whistle and we will see them in court if they so choose to take it that route as we have set aside ample funds to defend such highway robbery..

 

would be interested interested in peoples views on how they have got on with any defending against these cowboys in the Courts..or has anyone had any 'Visits' from these External Agents......

 

M

[slick132]

Hi Wilson,

 

No need to write to them further for now.

 

Your offer letter made it clear they had 14 days to accept your offer or it would be withdrawn.

 

If they've replied to your letter or not, they've NOT agreed to accept what you offered.

 

I would ignore them for now.

 

[wilsonmg]

Thanks Slick132... I will engage the 'not listening mode' until they have the decency to either accept or reject my offer...

 

by the way, if it did go to court, am I correct to state that as I've made an offer and they have not responded accordingly, then this would support my case (that's if it went that far)

 

Wilsonmg

[slick132]

Hi Wilson,

 

Their failure to reply directly to your offer works in your favour.

 

However, the likelihood of this ever going to court proceedings is ZERO.

 

Harlands know they are on dodgy grounds and that is why they tend to avoid any court action.

 

[wilsonmg]

So today we have received the letter stating that they reject our offer and that the High Court ruling I have quoted does not cover the 'agreement' they have with us, therefore all charges apply (and they have increased)..

 

I plan to respond (via Letter) and in the interest of fairness I will offer again to pay the £9.99 that was a missed payment (due to the cancellation clause). Also in the letter, if they again wish to reject our offer I would like a copy of our signed agreement via return post along with a breakdown of the 'alleged charges' and how they have arrived at the costs associated. Again if they reject the offer I will request no further contact from them as I will then only respond to a FORMAL letter from the county court so we can have our day in court to solve this matter once and for all.

 

All in all this is a pain in the arse for such a petty initial amount, but clearly for the sake of £9.99 I aint going to pay hundreds of pounds in made up charges.

 

any advice always welcome

 

Wilsonmg

[renegadeimp]

Theyre saying that a high court decision does not cover their contract?

[wilsonmg]

pretty much what they say.. below is their response

 

"With regards to Mr. Justice Kitchin's ruling, we believe you have misinterpreted his comments in regards to acceptable methods for terminating a membership agreement. This statement does not appear in Mr. Justice Kitchin's 240 point judgment but instead in his much briefer 32 point Penal Notice issued specifically to Ashbourne Management Services Limited, John Clayton-Wright and Dawne Clayton-Wright. It is our understanding, therefore, that this only applies to Ashbourne Management Services Limited, John Clayton-Wright and Dawne Clayton-Wright, and has been ordered specifically because contracts 1-13 examined in this case, manufactured, recommended and supplied to Ashbourne Management Services Limited's clients by Ashbourne Management Services Limited were found to be unfair and thus unenforceable. Any action which indicates a desire to end a membership entered into via one of these contracts should therefore be considered acceptable, as any attempt to hold a consumer to a contract deemed unfair by a judge is in itself unfair practice. Xercise 4 Less' contracts have not been supplied by Ashbourne Management Services Limited and have, to our knowledge, never been deemed unfair by a judge. There is, therefore, no reason to believe that terms which seek to limit when and how a member may terminate their agreement will not be enforceable in other instances.

 

 

To be clear, the addition of these charges in such circumstances is stipulated in the terms of your agreement. It is our position, based upon legal advice, that our charges are lawful and in line with all relevant guidance.

 

The club, like any business, has overheads to pay (for maintenance, utilities, staff wages etc.), and like any business the funds to pay these overheads comes from the revenue they receive from their customers. The club provides a service, the overheads for which are the same whether you attend or not

 

The agreement between you and the club is legally binding upon both parties, meaning that the club have obligations just as you do. Until the correct cancellation procedure is followed, therefore, the club have a ' contractual obligation to hold your membership open. This is, therefore, a membership that they cannot sell to anyone else, and all the time that you are not paying for the service they are providing at your request, the portion of their overheads which are to be covered by that membership must still be paid and as such the club are experiencing a loss, a loss brought about by your breach of contract."

 

Wilsonmg

[slick132]

Hi Wilson,

Good old Harlands !! They never fail to entertain

 

They still can't get their heads round the concept that a High Court Judgement or Ruling DOES set precedent upon which others can rely or quote.

 

My reply would be as follows :-

 

I refer to your letter of xxdate.

 

If you believe that a High Court Ruling and/or Penal Order does not set general legal precedent, that is your prerogative.

 

I will repeat one last time the following points :-

 

1. Cancellation of a DD mandate is acceptable notice of intention to cancel a membership agreement.

 

2. Your Admin Fees are no more or less than fixed penalties. As such, they are not lawful, they are not enforceable and I will not pay them.

 

3. I accept that I should have given you a clear month's notice to cancel and offer, for 14 days only, to pay £9.99 to settle this matter. My offer will be withdrawn unless you have agreed in writing to accept my offer.

 

4. If you want to test your opinions, issue legal proceedings and we can have our day in court.

 

[wilsonmg]

Cheers slick.

 

I have just been reading their posted accounts from Company House... does make interesting reading to see how much this outfit actual make a year using their bully tactics and threats with crazy unjust charges over such small initial amounts. The profits are running into multi Millions for the last two years that I have read and set to double for the 2013/14 year.. Clearly this is a well oiled machine, but they do need to get a grip of the cancellation matters, especially with the 'auto renew' instances. As the bigger they are getting the more spotlight they will get for all the wrong reasons, as believe it or not, I do think organisations like this can help gym's etc to enable cash flow, but the stupid charges that are clearly plucked from the air, along with the harassment tactics clearly puts them in the dark corners of the Financial world.

 

But they are still human after all as they have donated to charity as listed in there accounts... with an eye watering amount of just over £500 for the year ending 2013.. such a nice bunch

[wilsonmg]

Oh the joy's.... another BS letter stating that they do believe that court rulings set general legal precedents... but believe this precedent cannot apply in this case...

 

basically if I don't pay ALL of there fee's they will continue with there collection procedure, but will not continue to enter into further correspondence... fantastic no more letters, texts or phone calls....

 

clearly the next step will be to then start sending letters etc from the Zinc crew.... I feel a real dollop of ignoring coming on... which is a shame as I would happily pay the £9.99..

 

as always all advice is welcomed...

[slick132]

Hi Wilson,

 

If you want to make a more pro-active approach, you could take Harlands to court seeking :-

 

1. A declaration that their demands are contractually unenforceable.

 

2. Nominal compensation at an amount decided by the court, for Harlands continued harassment.

 

This would be by way of the County Court using the Small Claims Track so the risk of costs against you (in the event you lost) would be minimal.

 

Are you interested, in which case, we can guide you through the process.

 

Or you can simply continue to ignore or counter their demands, knowing they are highly unlikely to litigate against you.

 

[wilsonmg]

Hi Slick,

 

been using the 'Ignore' approach as working outside of the Uk at the moment. Apparently they have sent a further letter saying.. :

 

'Please contact us as we want to come to an amicable resolution. If they don't hear from me in 10 days then they will send the case to the UK's leading debt recovery agency 'Zinc'...'

 

Boy I'm shaking in my boots; I thought I've been quite clear with them over the last number of months...

 

ACCEPT THE £9.99 to clear the account or TAKE ME TO COURT!!!!

 

AS always I do accept to pay the £9.99, all other charges they can whistle...

 

Am I correct in the belief that Zinc are part of the same circus as these other clowns ??

[slick132]

Hi Wilson,

 

Am I correct in the belief that Zinc are part of the same circus as these other clowns ??

 

No quite - Zinc are an external DCA but they tend to back off when challenged. Next in their line of threats may be from Harlands pet solicitors, Major & Co but they scuttle off quickly too !

 

I would ignore the latest request from CRS that you contact them.

 

Let us know what Zinc say and we'll take it from there ............

 

[wilsonmg]

Hi Wilson,

 

 

 

No quite - Zinc are an external DCA but they tend to back off when challenged. Next in their line of threats may be from Harlands pet solicitors, Major & Co but they scuttle off quickly too !

 

I would ignore the latest request from CRS that you contact them.

 

Let us know what Zinc say and we'll take it from there ............

 

 

Will do

[wilsonmg]

...

[wilsonmg]

Hi Slick,

Zinc have now started to contact via email and set me up an account to pay the fictitious debt from CRS. They have kindly assigned me an 'account manager' and given us a number of ways to pay them.

I have two thoughts to progress… continue to ignore as we have not confirmed that we have received the email (however I would have expected them to have email tracking on.

The other approach is to give the situation that the charges have been consistently challenged, however I would happily pay then the £9.99 that I believe I owe to close this matter. Again if they will not accept this then they can take me to court as we will vigorously defend.

 

Do you have a view ?

Cheers

 

Mart