Welcome secured debt sold to MKDP - HELP on Full and final settlement

[karlosg]

I took a £20k secured loan out about 1 and a half to 2 years ago now and been paying the extortiante rates back since. Never missed a payment till now.

 

Ive hit financial difficulties and need some help. I believe my CCA in incorrect and am considering putting it into dispute also.

 

I sent of the subject access request and the CCA request along with 2 seperate postal orders. One for £10 and one for £1.

 

I received a letter today saying thanks for the requests but please send a cheque for for £1 and the £10 !!

 

My postal orders were no where to be seen or even mentioned in the letter !! Totally Stolen by Welcome !!

 

Whats the best route now? I really dont want to send cheques as ive heard they can uplift signatures. I sent them recorded delivery and never signed the letters as I was told just typed my name.

 

Help !

Edited March 4, 2010 by karlosg

[ozzywizard]

Karl,

 

You have made the first step in sending these letters, were they sent recorded ? they have acknowledged by them in writing so they received the letters. . did you keep your part of the postal order and the receipt ? If so go back to the post office and check if they been cashed, im not 100% sure but think they can trace them .

 

This may be the one time you can phone their compliance and ask them to find your letters for SAR and CCA request and inform them the payment was in the envelope and can they process the requests, if they say no then ask them to contact the police as you concider the monies to of been stolen them ask to speak to a manager in compliance, this may just shake them up. .. if it comes to it you may have to send recorded another postal order but to me the fact you have to do this is unacceptable. let us know how you get on.

 

Why do you believe your agreement is incorrect according to the CCA1974 ? why would you put this in dispute ? have you got a copy of your agreement to show us ? or awaiting the cca request.

 

I did have the direct number for compliance but lost it now, will try to find it for you.

[ozzywizard]

compliance is 0115 984 9200

 

also postal order checking service is 01246542091 .

Signaller on here had the same problem.

[Signaller]

Hi Karl,

Ozzy is correct.I had the same problem.Phoned postal order checking service and they even sent me a letter confirming the postal order had indeed been banked.I never thought to go down the police route though.Not for £1 anyway.A tip for you: Send the letters and postal orders again, but try to make the letter look official, ie;try to get someone to print the envelope for you.I say this because, along with others here, letters were being received there but not signed for.I was concerned that they might put the £1 towards my alleged ammount outstanding, but my credit file says the credit agreement had ended.I've no idea what happened but they replied to my SAR.Not everything I asked for was sent .It is still ongoing.

When you get the postal orders just ask the clerk to make it payable to Welcome Finance, and as usual send everything recorded delivery.Give it a couple of days before you check the track and trace facility on the Royal Mail website, and maybe a week before you check with the postal order checking service.Good luck.

Regards

Signaller

[karlosg]

Thanks Guys , I suddenly received a letter today saying they now have receipt of the £1 postal order but the £10 has gone missing !!

 

Just for anyone else Compliance DD number is now 0845 618 7804

 

I just phoned them and they agreed to put the £10 credit on my account card and just sent the CCA and the SAR so thats good of them !! lol

 

Reason i Believe the agreement is a bit strange is I have asked for details of it since I lost the originals and they seem very reluctant to supply me anything at all !! I also asked for settlement figures and they are avoiding tell me ?? No idea why ??

So now I want to query the agreement when I finally get a copy ( if they ever send it !! ) Ive never known a company so hard to deal with !!

[karlosg]

Ok CCA arrive , Barely elegible but seems this is all they have on me. 2 pages !! . Ok so advise now needed pls.

 

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f349/karlosg/page0001-3.jpg

 

Thanks

 

Edited March 4, 2010 by karlosg

[ozzywizard]

Karl im having trouble reading most of this, looks fuzzy lol .

 

can you confirm figures plz

 

I get yuor loan to be 20.000 over 130 months with 25% APR. ?

 

Is their no insurances or acceptance fee or anything else on it and why is their 2 seperate dates with 7 days between you and welcome signing agreement ?

 

can you take the agreement off and just post link, it makes your thread huge, thanks.

[karlosg]

Sure : The copy scanned is just the same as I received and very very bad quality. I just called welcome and they also said its a very bad copy. I asked them over the phone to confirm the figures which they couldn't as they neither could read them !!

 

Compliance officer then went off to speak to her manager and said they will send out something else to confirm the figures but it wouldn't be the CCA ??

 

But in the mean time from what i can make out its :

 

Amount - £20,000 over 180 Months

Monthly Payment - £388.69

APR variable - 25%

 

Acceptance fee £235.00

Mortgage Indemnity fee - £0.00

Interest Charge £49729.15

Total charge for credit - £49964.15

 

The only reason I can see the difference in date as because of the 7 day cooling off period. Maybe I signed on 15/08 and completed 22/08. As I can see from the attached secured loan statement that money was transferred on 22/08

 

Thanks

[postggj]

got your message

 

so its £20000 over 180 months at 25% apr (ouch)

thats gives a monthly payment of £389.07

interest £50,033.44

 

total payable £70,033.44

 

add acceptance fee and you total will be £702.68.44 (criminal) devide by 180 months to give a monthly repayment figure of £390.38

[ozzywizard]

The agreement is out by 304.24, this is what you will be left to pay once you think it is paid off.

[karlosg]

Oh Great !! So whats my next step guys ? Seems like their figures are out

[postggj]

amount of credit

total repayable

apr

 

all misstated

 

ill do a letter this weekend for you

[karlosg]

Excellent much appreciated Post !!

[postggj]

lets get this agreement put into dispute to give you some breathing space

[karlosg]

Thanks Post , I look forward to receiving the pm or post on this thread.

[emanevs]

Hi everyone,

 

What is confusing me completely on all of these is that:

 

a) we all agree that there is a shortfall on the credit agreement through the figures being incorrect.

 

However, what is it legally that is wrong with it, in terms of legisation?

 

Reason I am saying this is that:

 

1) Wilson interpreted S9(4) as specifically saying that the ‘charge for credit’ (including fees) was not credit. Following Wilson the fees must not be added to the total amount of credit, and of course the agreement doesnt. If they changed this agreement to show that the fees added to credit, then it would be clearly should be automatically unenforceable.

 

2) Do we then perhaps question the fact and ask the **** how the acceptance fee and any other charges say MIF are paid off to end the agreement?

 

Clearly, paying off the amounts stated and ending up with a shortfall would essentially mean that the agreement is in clear breach of the presribed terms, because essentially:

 

Schedule 6, (5) Consumer Credit Agreements:

 

"A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following --

a) number of repayments

b) amount of repayments

c) frequency and timing of repayments

d) dates of repayments

e) the manner in which any of the above may be determined

or in any way, and in any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

 

All I seem to read from them is that fees are allowed to be included in the agreement as per the case law such as Griffiths, Southern Pacific, Wilson etc, but nothing to cut that right down.

 

I think the above is the only way to sort this out once and for all by asking the FOS, JUDGE, **** etc, how the debtor is to discharge this agreement.

 

If clearly they cannot, then its simply and automatically unenforceable..

 

Anyone??

[Et Contra Pacem Regis]

Re post 12, by way of demonic advocacy: faced with that arguement I think Welcome would say:

1. There wouldn't be a shortfall. You just think there'd be a shortfall because you're working out interest based on the APR. All you've proven is that the APR is wrong. (ditto for interest rates if that's what you've used, unless of course the rate is variable...)

2. APR is not a prescribed term, therefore we can get a discretionary enforcement order under s127.

3. Even if the agreement does not explicitly say when fees will be paid, that is not a breach of Schedule 6 para 5. The fees are paid within the regular payments. Here are some sums (like their "statement of price" thing) that show how.

[emanevs]

Re post 12, by way of demonic advocacy: faced with that arguement I think Welcome would say:

1. There wouldn't be a shortfall. You just think there'd be a shortfall because you're working out interest based on the APR. All you've proven is that the APR is wrong. (ditto for interest rates if that's what you've used, unless of course the rate is variable...)

Schedule 6 of the Consumer Credit Regs 1983, rate of interest (4) clearly states that (quote) "a term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided on the agreement"

 

Clearly the interest rate is factually incorrect and thus a breach of prescribed term has occured.

 

2. APR is not a prescribed term, therefore we can get a discretionary enforcement order under s127.

 

see above

 

3. Even if the agreement does not explicitly say when fees will be paid, that is not a breach of Schedule 6 para 5. The fees are paid within the regular payments. Here are some sums (like their "statement of price" thing) that show how.

 

Clearly, paying off the amounts stated and ending up with a shortfall would essentially mean that the agreement is in clear breach of the prescribed terms, because essentially:

 

Schedule 6, (5) Consumer Credit Agreements:

 

"A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following --

a) number of repayments

b) amount of repayments

c) frequency and timing of repayments

d) dates of repayments

e) the manner in which any of the above may be determined

or in any way, and in any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

 

As the creditor CANNOT SHOW HOW THE DEBTOR IS TO DISCHARGE HIS OBLIGATIONS UNDER THE CREDIT AGREEMENT, THE AGREEMENT must be automatically unenforceable.

 

SEE ALSO:

Form and content of regulated consumer credit agreements

 

2.

—(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) and (9) below, documents embodying regulated consumer credit agreements (other than modifying agreements) shall contain the information set out in Column 2 of Schedule 1 to these Regulations in so far as it relates to the type of agreement referred to in Column 1.

 

AND:

Please also see below (Taken from OFT Website)

 

The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations

 

The Regulations apply to all regulated consumer credit agreements and consumer hire agreements, including modifying agreements.

In particular, the agreement must contain certain financial and other information. This must be set out in a specified order, with sub-headings, and shown together as a whole. The information must be of equal prominence, and easily legible.

 

In the case of credit agreements, the required information is:

• nature of the agreement

• parties to the agreement

• key financial information (including the amount of credit or the credit limit, the duration of the agreement, the APR, the total amount payable, and the amounts and timing of repayments)

• other financial information (including a description and cash price of goods or services, any advance payments, the total charge for credit, the rate of interest , how and when interest charges are calculated and applied, the order of allocation of payments, and variable rates and charges)

• key Information (including default or other charges, any security provided by the borrower, and prescribed statements of the protection and remedies available to the borrower), and

• a signature box, and other form of consent where applicable.

Both the borrower and the lender must sign the agreement. A copy of the executed agreement must be given to the borrower, either when he signs it or within seven days. A further copy of the unexecuted agreement may also need to be provided. If the agreement is cancellable (because it was signed off trade premises), notice of cancellation rights must be included in the copy agreement, and must also generally be sent by post or email to the borrower within seven days.

 

If the above requirements are not met, the lender can only enforce the agreement against the borrower by getting a court order. Local authority trading standards services or the OFT can take enforcement action against the lender, using powers in Part 8 of the Enterprise Act 2002.

[Et Contra Pacem Regis]

1. Please read Schedule 6(4), Column 1. The interest rate is only a prescribed term if the agreement is:

(a) running account credit or

(b) within the Schedule 1 paragraph 9(a-c) exceptions.

 

Unless the agreement falls within those limits the interest rate is not prescribed.

 

2. the APR is not the same thing as the interest rate. The APR is never a prescribed term.

While it is naughty of them to mis-state non prescribed terms, and might even get them a slap on the wrist from the OFT, it does not prevent enforcement. Section 127(3) of the Act is only an absolute bar on enforcement if there is no document containing the prescribed terms signed by the debtor. It doesn't matter if it's not signed in the prescribed manner, or if any of the schedule 1 information is missing; if the prescribed terms are there, the court can enforce.

 

If you've calculated interest from the APR, rather than the interest rate, that does not establish that the interest rate is wrong.

 

 

3. Welcome would dispute that you end up with a shortfall. If you brought a claim against them, they'd want to see your sums in more detail than they are posted here - how do you get £x interest from £y credit and whatever rate or APR? What is the relevant equation? and so on.

[BEBOBEBO]

Clearly, paying off the amounts stated and ending up with a shortfall would essentially mean that the agreement is in clear breach of the prescribed terms, because essentially:

 

Schedule 6, (5) Consumer Credit Agreements:

 

"A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following --

a) number of repayments

b) amount of repayments

c) frequency and timing of repayments

d) dates of repayments

e) the manner in which any of the above may be determined

or in any way, and in any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

 

As the creditor CANNOT SHOW HOW THE DEBTOR IS TO DISCHARGE HIS OBLIGATIONS UNDER THE CREDIT AGREEMENT, THE AGREEMENT must be automatically unenforceable.

 

SEE ALSO:

Form and content of regulated consumer credit agreements

 

2.

—(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) and (9) below, documents embodying regulated consumer credit agreements (other than modifying agreements) shall contain the information set out in Column 2 of Schedule 1 to these Regulations in so far as it relates to the type of agreement referred to in Column 1.

 

AND:

Please also see below (Taken from OFT Website)

 

The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations

 

The Regulations apply to all regulated consumer credit agreements and consumer hire agreements, including modifying agreements.

In particular, the agreement must contain certain financial and other information. This must be set out in a specified order, with sub-headings, and shown together as a whole. The information must be of equal prominence, and easily legible.

 

In the case of credit agreements, the required information is:

• nature of the agreement

• parties to the agreement

• key financial information (including the amount of credit or the credit limit, the duration of the agreement, the APR, the total amount payable, and the amounts and timing of repayments)

• other financial information (including a description and cash price of goods or services, any advance payments, the total charge for credit, the rate of interest , how and when interest charges are calculated and applied, the order of allocation of payments, and variable rates and charges)

• key Information (including default or other charges, any security provided by the borrower, and prescribed statements of the protection and remedies available to the borrower), and

• a signature box, and other form of consent where applicable.

Both the borrower and the lender must sign the agreement. A copy of the executed agreement must be given to the borrower, either when he signs it or within seven days. A further copy of the unexecuted agreement may also need to be provided. If the agreement is cancellable (because it was signed off trade premises), notice of cancellation rights must be included in the copy agreement, and must also generally be sent by post or email to the borrower within seven days.

 

If the above requirements are not met, the lender can only enforce the agreement against the borrower by getting a court order. Local authority trading standards services or the OFT can take enforcement action against the lender, using powers in Part 8 of the Enterprise Act 2002.

 

 

Mine hasnt been signed by welcome?

[emanevs]

1. Please read Schedule 6(4), Column 1. The interest rate is only a prescribed term if the agreement is:

(a) running account credit or

(b) within the Schedule 1 paragraph 9(a-c) exceptions.

 

Your (b) above is incorrect. You have actually missed out on (b) "fixed sum credit falling within the exceptions in paragraph 9 (a) to © of shedule 1 to these regulations.

 

Unless the agreement falls within those limits the interest rate is not prescribed. I agree, see above

 

2. the APR is not the same thing as the interest rate. The APR is never a prescribed term.

Under my 'key financial information' the APR is mis stated as 17.3%

Under the 'other information' it is 14%.

As you cannot add fees into the credit (wilson) they must be in total charge for credit.

While it is naughty of them to mis-state non prescribed terms, and might even get them a slap on the wrist from the OFT, it does not prevent enforcement. Section 127(3) of the Act is only an absolute bar on enforcement if there is no document containing the prescribed terms signed by the debtor. It doesn't matter if it's not signed in the prescribed manner, or if any of the schedule 1 information is missing; if the prescribed terms are there, the court can enforce.

 

 

If you've calculated interest from the APR, rather than the interest rate, that does not establish that the interest rate is wrong.

 

 

3. Welcome would dispute that you end up with a shortfall. If you brought a claim against them, they'd want to see your sums in more detail than they are posted here - how do you get £x interest from £y credit and whatever rate or APR? What is the relevant equation? and so on.

 

Under 'key financial information' My agreement is for £25000 at £419.47 per month over 121 months, and at 17.3% interest rate.

 

I suppose I am saying that you cannot have two interest rates applied to one loan, and expect to pay it all back within 121 months as there is still a shortfall of the fees which as per wilson cannot be added to the total amount of credit

 

The key financial information does not comply with the legislation ie. total amount payable.

 

At the end of 121 months AND AT 17.3% APR, the £25000 would be paid off in full as the total amount payable would be £50,755.81. £25755.81 would be the total charge for credit at 17.3%. However, the £2985 (MIF FEES AND ACCEPTANCE FEE) still remains to be paid back, as you cannot add fees to the total amount of credit (wilson).

 

As been pointed out with Wilson, the fees must not be added to the total amount of credit, which in this case would be £2985.

 

There is no way of paying back the £2985, and the £25,000 at 17.3% APR within 121 months.

 

Therefore £2985 divided by 121 months would be £24.67 per month in order for it to be paid off at the end of the 121 month period, otherwise there would be a shortfall in the agreement.

 

In essence, I am saying that there is clearly a shortfall as you would not be able to discharge your obligation in full, hence Schedule 6, (5) Consumer Credit Agreements.

 

ALSO:

 

Form and content of regulated consumer credit agreements

 

2.

—(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) and (9) below, documents embodying regulated consumer credit agreements (other than modifying agreements) shall contain the information set out in Column 2 of Schedule 1 to these Regulations in so far as it relates to the type of agreement referred to in Column 1.

 

Please also see below (Taken from OFT Website)

 

The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations

 

The Regulations apply to all regulated consumer credit agreements and consumer hire agreements, including modifying agreements.

In particular, the agreement must contain certain financial and other information. This must be set out in a specified order, with sub-headings, and shown together as a whole. The information must be of equal prominence, and easily legible.

 

In the case of credit agreements, the required information is:

• nature of the agreement

• parties to the agreement

• key financial information (including the amount of credit or the credit limit, the duration of the agreement, the APR, the total amount payable, and the amounts and timing of repayments)

• other financial information (including a description and cash price of goods or services, any advance payments, the total charge for credit, the rate of interest , how and when interest charges are calculated and applied, the order of allocation of payments, and variable rates and charges)

• key Information (including default or other charges, any security provided by the borrower, and prescribed statements of the protection and remedies available to the borrower), and

• a signature box, and other form of consent where applicable.

Both the borrower and the lender must sign the agreement. A copy of the executed agreement must be given to the borrower, either when he signs it or within seven days. A further copy of the unexecuted agreement may also need to be provided. If the agreement is cancellable (because it was signed off trade premises), notice of cancellation rights must be included in the copy agreement, and must also generally be sent by post or email to the borrower within seven days.

 

If the above requirements are not met, the lender can only enforce the agreement against the borrower by getting a court order. Local authority trading standards services or the OFT can take enforcement action against the lender, using powers in Part 8 of the Enterprise Act 2002.

[BEBOBEBO]

Sorry to Hijack your Thread Karl, just trying to follow as many as I can

[BEBOBEBO]

I agree emanevs good find, OFT website sets it out pretty clear to me.

[beyondhope]

to confirm for my own head there must be the amount of repayments and total amount so if these dont match thats a c*ck up on their part yes?

[BEBOBEBO]

I believe so, if not it should in my opinon state final payment of xxx amount.