A classic admiral ploy

[sharburrys]

Dear all

 

My car was involved in an accident whilst in parking position in a car park, a delivery lorry took the front bumper of my car.

Bless him the lorry driver left me a message on the front window apologising and he already opened a case through his company, I spoke to the third parties insurer and I called the audi garage where I bought the car from

 

They wee quite helpful and they involved accident exchange. Immediately I received a phone call and we arranged the car to be taken to the garage and I was given a courtesy car. They have done everything perfectly and I was quite happy. I was informed that is will not affect my insurance as the other party and the 3rd party insurer accepted the full responsibility

 

I received a letter from admiral yesterday stating that they have been informed by accident exchange and this is recorded in my file on their system and I asked them what does it mean? They said it will not affect your no claims bonus however it will affect your next 3 years insurance premium, I always pay the premiums up front

 

So basically the claim is 0 but I have to answer yes to the question

Have you been involved in any accident

 

I believe this is unfair, admiral said it is in T&CS that they have to be informed

 

As far as I am aware these guys own some other companies therefore they will be sharing information with other insurers, I asked them to remove this note in the account otherwise I will peruse through court action

 

Their response was feel free to take the action

 

I need an urgent advise from you guys whether they are allowed to do?

 

Kind regards

[fkofilee]

Sadly you cant lie about this as it contemplates fraud. With that in mind, they are insurers and can do as they please while you are with them.

It varys from insurer to insurer.... Honestly, I think you ar stuck between a rock and a had place...

[unclebulgaria67]

As far as I can tell Admiral have done nothing wrong.

 

If you are unhappy, you are entitled to make a complaint and follow it up with the FOS if you want to.

 

Your Insurance policy is a contract between you and Admiral. You agreed to the terms of the policy when you paid the premium. Under those terms, it tells you that you have to advise of all accidents. Also there will be terms about Admiral obtaining information from various sources, as well as sharing the information.

[sharburrys]

Yes guys I can understand however

1- why do I have to answer yes to the question have I been involved in any accident in my future premium, it is true that I have not been, the car was in parking position empty

2- what is the meaning of no claims bonus and involving in an accident? No claims bonus is to award the drivers with in their next premium?

3- surely if their T&Cs is against the public interest it is void document I law is it not?

 

Thanks

[CrappoMan]

The terms of the contract may state that, but it is still totally unfair that he has to answer YES to the question: Have you been involved in any accident ?

 

He clearly hasn't been involved in an accident, his parked car was hit by a third party. He had NO involvement in the incident in any way. His only connection to the incident is being the owner of the damaged item. And no claim was made on his insurance, and no blame has been apportioned to him.

 

If the third party had not left his contact details then the OP would have had to claim on his own insurance, but on a DAMAGE basis, not an ACCIDENT basis, as he would have no evidence of the accident. He could then answer NO to the question. He would have to admit to a claim on a previous policy, but not an accident.

[sharburrys]

I though exactly the same

 

The 3rd party already admired their fault and paid everything, accident exchange some reason they informed my insurer as they were scared that in case the 3rd party does not pay they can claim it from my insurer,

So it states I the notes on admiral system that

0 claims but involved in an accident which I believe it is wrong

 

Basically they are giving an incentive of no claims bonus but on the other hand they are taking it back more saying that I WaS involved in an accident

How is this possible?

Is it legal?

[sharburrys]

***admitted

[unclebulgaria67]

Was an insured vehicle subject to accident damage ? The answer is yes. Does not matter that the car was damaged while parked.

 

Sorry I am not here to answer for the Insurance industry and I cannot change it. I am simply telling you how it works and if you don't like it, then you will have to stay unhappy.

 

If you don't disclose this accident damage event to future Insurers, you risk having a policy made invalid due to deliberate non disclosure. The Insurers will cancel the policy and you will then have to disclose you have had a policy cancelled. That will make it very expensive to then arrange Insurance.

 

With a non fault accident event, where Insurers recover their outlay from third party Insurers, you won't lose no claims discount. You will however have a small loading applied to future premiums for a few years. The Insurers do this, because they believe that accidents tend to happen in a short space of time. i.e if you have accident damage to your car, you will statistically be more likely to have other accident events within a period of time. My sister had no accidents in over 20 years of driving and then had 3 accident events within 2 years. I have heard similar from many people,

[CrappoMan]

Was an insured vehicle subject to accident damage ? The answer is yes...

 

It is only known that it was subject to accident damage because the third party admitted it. If not seen or admitted, it could just as easily have been caused by someone with a big hammer. Then where is the accident ?

 

With a non fault accident event, where Insurers recover their outlay from third party Insurers...

 

What outlay ??? There has been no claim!

[sharburrys]

Ok Bulgaria I think you are missing the point

 

Under no circumstances whatever their T&Cs stating; in the uk it can not be against the public interest

 

So far it is contradicting each other no claims bonus and then accident. Secondly it is a ploy to increase the next premium

So otherwise why these questionnaire is made for? To assess the risk if there has been no risk to my insurer in the past why would it affect my future insurance policies?

 

What will happen if I take a court action to correct this mistake? Under what part of the law can I pursue?

 

Regards

[dacouc]

The terms of the contract may state that, but it is still totally unfair that he has to answer YES to the question: Have you been involved in any accident ?

 

He clearly hasn't been involved in an accident, his parked car was hit by a third party. He had NO involvement in the incident in any way. His only connection to the incident is being the owner of the damaged item. And no claim was made on his insurance, and no blame has been apportioned to him.

 

If the third party had not left his contact details then the OP would have had to claim on his own insurance, but on a DAMAGE basis, not an ACCIDENT basis, as he would have no evidence of the accident. He could then answer NO to the question. He would have to admit to a claim on a previous policy, but not an accident.

 

It's more likely to come under the part of Insurers questions which in effect ask "Have you been involved in any Accidents, Claims or Losses"

[CrappoMan]

...if you have accident damage to your car, you will statistically be more likely to have other accident events within a period of time...

 

That is only true (statistically), if you were DRIVING at the time. If the car was parked, your actions didn't contribute to the incident, and any 2 events are independent events, the occurrence of one does not affect the probability of the other.

 

It's like winning the lottery. Just because you win once, doesn't mean you have a higher probability of winning again.

 

The only exception to this is if the car is parked incorrectly, but then some blame should be apportioned to the insured and would result in an 'at fault incident'

[unclebulgaria67]

Ok Bulgaria I think you are missing the point

 

Under no circumstances whatever their T&Cs stating; in the uk it can not be against the public interest

 

So far it is contradicting each other no claims bonus and then accident. Secondly it is a ploy to increase the next premium

So otherwise why these questionnaire is made for? To assess the risk if there has been no risk to my insurer in the past why would it affect my future insurance policies?

 

What will happen if I take a court action to correct this mistake? Under what part of the law can I pursue?

 

Regards

 

Have given my opinion already.

 

If you want to waste your time taking this forward with Admiral, that is your choice.

[unclebulgaria67]

That is only true (statistically), if you were DRIVING at the time. If the car was parked, your actions didn't contribute to the incident, and any 2 events are independent events, the occurrence of one does not affect the probability of the other.

 

It's like winning the lottery. Just because you win once, doesn't mean you have a higher probability of winning again.

 

The only exception to this is if the car is parked incorrectly, but then some blame should be apportioned to the insured and would result in an 'at fault incident'

 

Not really. The OP may be living in an area where for whatever reasons there has been an increase in traffic, making it more likely that vehicles parked or being driven will be involved in an accident.

 

There is no point debating this. You don't like the practice of Insurers and it is very unlikely it will change.

[sharburrys]

I think this is wrong,

 

Either way the consumer loses

 

If I dealt with as a claim damage basis, I would have lost my no claims bonus

 

If I dealt with as an accident with the third party i am involved in an accident

Either way I lose, so is this correct?

I know what you are saying but remember the law in the uk is common which means interpretation of the previous cases

 

So has anyone dealt with any insurance company in a similar situation?

 

Thanks

[CrappoMan]

Maybe you can find out how much your premium will increase over the next 3 years and claim it from the third party. That way you don't lose out.

[unclebulgaria67]

Maybe you can find out how much your premium will increase over the next 3 years and claim it from the third party. That way you don't lose out.

 

This has been tried on numerous occasions but does not work because the exact loss cannot be quantified. You don't know how much future premiums will be affected and you would have to mitigate any loss by shopping around for insurance, as you would do normally.

 

In regard to this debate, I can see how the actions of Insurers are viewed, but the whole basis of insurance is calculating risk. To be able to do this and work out a premium, they do have to have all information. People don't like having information passed to their Insurers following a claim directly against a third party, but this information is needed. Hence the various terms within an insurance policy.

[sharburrys]

I can work out to quantify how much loss (average) will I make in the next 3 years as a financial analyst who is specialised in risk management and derivatives this would not take too much of my time

 

My question is if I were to prove the judge my potential loss, in what basis can I pursue to reclaim this loss?

 

It seems to me there is a big similarity between 2 scenarios of if you credit rating is ruined by a firms fault , (wrong handling) and your insurance premium is raised by non fault accident

 

Can anyone please show me a case study in the past which I can look up and what part of the consumer law may restrict this unfair treatment

 

I know they are regulated by FCA but need the specific part

[citizenB]

I rather suspect that UncleB is correct - I dont pretend to understand the workings of the Insurance industry and like hte banks, they will screw you every which way.

[MaxxPower]

This isn't just Admiral though. EVERY insurance company will bump up your premium if you've been involved in an accident that 100% wasn't your fault.

According to the insurance companies the fact that someone else caused an accident that you were innocently and unavoidably involved in means you're more likely to be involved in another accident in future and so are a greater risk.

[unclebulgaria67]

The only thing is FCA ICOBS, but I don't think it offers anything helpful.

 

http://fshandbook.info/FS/html/handbook/ICOBS

 

If you want to pursue this, then I think you should look into unfair trading law.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/1277/contents/made

 

Don't know of any case law that would help. I have read that people have tried to pursue this before and have failed.

[*RainbowTears*]

Dear all

 

My car was involved in an accident whilst in parking position in a car park, a delivery lorry took the front bumper of my car.

Bless him the lorry driver left me a message on the front window apologising and he already opened a case through his company, I spoke to the third parties insurer and I called the audi garage where I bought the car from

 

They wee quite helpful and they involved accident exchange. Immediately I received a phone call and we arranged the car to be taken to the garage and I was given a courtesy car. They have done everything perfectly and I was quite happy. I was informed that is will not affect my insurance as the other party and the 3rd party insurer accepted the full responsibility

 

I received a letter from admiral yesterday stating that they have been informed by accident exchange and this is recorded in my file on their system and I asked them what does it mean? They said it will not affect your no claims bonus however it will affect your next 3 years insurance premium, I always pay the premiums up front

 

So basically the claim is 0 but I have to answer yes to the question

Have you been involved in any accident

 

I believe this is unfair, admiral said it is in T&CS that they have to be informed

 

As far as I am aware these guys own some other companies therefore they will be sharing information with other insurers, I asked them to remove this note in the account otherwise I will peruse through court action

 

Their response was feel free to take the action

 

I need an urgent advise from you guys whether they are allowed to do?

 

Kind regards

 

 

Did you at anytime notify Admiral about the accident & the circumstances of it?

 

If the answer is no, then why didn't you?

 

As I do feel you should of told them at time of the incident. Then that way, this may of turned out differently for you.

 

I too am a very long term Admiral customer & I've never had to make a claim on my policy. But I did have 2 incidents where I was stationary & I was hit twice (once by a reversing van & second by a HGV side swiping me) & I reported both incidents to Admiral & I never incurred any negative impact, either on my no claims or having my insurance increased.

[SuperVillain]

I can work out to quantify how much loss (average) will I make in the next 3 years as a financial analyst who is specialised in risk management and derivatives this would not take too much of my time

 

My question is if I were to prove the judge my potential loss, in what basis can I pursue to reclaim this loss?

 

It seems to me there is a big similarity between 2 scenarios of if you credit rating is ruined by a firms fault , (wrong handling) and your insurance premium is raised by non fault accident

 

Can anyone please show me a case study in the past which I can look up and what part of the consumer law may restrict this unfair treatment

 

I know they are regulated by FCA but need the specific part

 

Your claim against the other side is nothing to do with consumer law. It's the tort of negligence.

 

And as UB said when recovering damages you (the Claimant) have a duty to take reasonable steps to mitigate your loss. So even if you quantify your future losses, you would have to show you mitigated your losses.

 

Furthermore you would probably have an issue with remoteness with regards to the damages suggested.

[CrappoMan]

...I reported both incidents to Admiral & I never incurred any negative impact, either on my no claims or having my insurance increased.

 

You are missing the whole point of the OP's question. You might not have had any increase in your insurance, but you have stayed with Admiral. If you decide to change your insurer in the future, you will have to answer YES to the question "have you been involved in an accident in the last x years ?". That will trigger an increase in your premium.

[sharburrys]

That is correct so in any way the consumer loses so is it fair?