Parking ticket issued for no good reason

[thecookiemonster]

Today, my partner received a parking ticket,

 

we were parked in a residential area for around an hour,

there were no restrictions,

no signs on the posts about permits,

no double yellow lines

nothing,

 

I have taken pictures of the car,

the lack of lines,

the posts

and the whole street showing there is nothing mentioned about permits

or anything else about any time restrictions.

 

The parking tickets says we don't have a valid permit,

my partner won't pay the fine as she did nothing wrong

and we have the evidence to prove this with photos

which I could upload if you want to see them.

 

What do you think about the lack of signs,

no double yellow lines,

no mention of any restrictions

or anything else?

 

Thank you.

[Jamberson]

Assuming this is a PCN issued by (or on behalf of) a local council - and not some private enforcement company...

 

The PCN is issued for contravening the Traffic Order (legal definition of the restrictions).

If there is a restriction there, but it's not adequately signed, then that's a sound defence,

but you'll still have to appeal in writing.

 

Be aware that in some cases, there is a sign at the entrance to a road saying "Resident permit area" or similar, which is valid in some cases.

 

Could you let us have the exact location, so we can look on Google Maps?

 

(If it's not a council ticket, the situation is rather different.)

[thecookiemonster]

Hi, thanks for your reply,

 

sorry I forgot to mention it was issued by the local council,

in some other streets nearby there is permit areas

but we made sure that this street didn't have any restrictions before parking there,

 

also the lines have been removed there which you can see clearly on the photo's.

 

I looked online and there were lines there when the maps were done but there isn't any longer.

 

Also just around the corner there's a sign saying "Permit area ends here".

 

Also we were in a different town to where we live so weren't familiar with the area

but even so nothing is clearly signposted and it looks like it used to be a permit area but isn't any longer.

 

I will upload the photo's to see what you think and give you and others a chance of offering a good opinion.

 

Thanks.

[thecookiemonster]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jamberson]

It looks pretty clear-cut to me. No signage means they can't enforce the PCN.

 

It appears they are in the process of either still installing the signs and lines, or changing them somehow.

 

Could you let us have the location, so we can have a little look around the road on Google Maps?

[thecookiemonster]

**UPDATE**

 

Received a letter today, I've lost my challenge, I am actually fuming, when I looked online at the photographs the warden took, he took a picture of a sign on a different street by the looks of it but regardless of that the bays were blacked out and there were no lines on the road as I can prove with photographs.

 

What is odd is that the CEO took pictures of my car at 2.04pm, yet the picture of the sign which is on a different street was taken at 2.21pm. The photos I took clearly show that sign is not at the entrance to the street where I parked.

 

I'm considering contacting my local MP, do you think that would be a good idea?

 

I refuse to pay, if I Was at fault then fair enough but I wasn't, plus I don't even live in the town where the offence took place.

 

I can't afford to pay anyway as I have Nil Income until my SSP is sorted out.

 

The response they said is as follows:-

 

"I have received your challenge in respect of the above penalty charge notice and after careful consideration of the circumstances have no grounds for the cancellation of the charge."

 

"The Civil enforcement office has recorded and photographed your vehicle parked in a residential parking bay without a valid permit on display.You are only entitled to park in these bays with a valid permit. On entering this area, signposts are clearly placed in order to notify drivers entering the restrictions in place, this is shown in one of the photographs uploaded by the CEO."

 

The time of the photograph showing the signpost for this location is irrelevant in order to progress with a case we only require the time of which the vehicle, contravening the parking regulations, is logged and observed. This was correctly noted. Therefore, the penalty charge notice was issued correctly".

 

What do you think? Thanks for reading, I hope someone can help.

[Jamberson]

Don't worry. Based on what you've said, you can win this easily.

 

Sit tight for now. Don't pay, and in two weeks you'll get a Notice to Owner (I presume your partner is the registered keeper?).

 

When you do, re-appeal re-stating your case. But this time, also point out the CEO photos were taken later, in a different street (attach evidence to prove it, eg an image from Google street view, and tell them exactly where that sign is), and say that it's not acceptable for a local authority to countenance this deception. State that you will refer to the adjudicator with an application for costs if the council do not accept your representation this time.

 

(Make it sound polite though - it helps!)

 

Make sure the registered keeper signs the letter.

 

You really should win this one without needing adjudication, but if they force your hand, go for it.

[thecookiemonster]

Thanks for the reply, looking at my photos again that sign definitely doesn't appear to be there.

 

My partner is the registered keeper of the vehicle.

 

I did state in my challenge regarding the time the CEO took the picture of the sign but they said it's irrelevant, the bays were blacked out so I don't see how they can say I have no grounds?

 

Also the council are going on the fact that because there's a sign in a different street saying it's a permit zone that i am in the wrong, there are no signs in the street where we parked and there's no bays as they are blacked out and why no repeater signs? There's no lines or anything, we didn't see this sign which could be quite far around the next corner in a different street or a few streets away.

[Jamberson]

They are technically correct that the time the photo was taken isn't important. However it does prove that he didn't photgraph it there and then, and of course if you can find the spot where the sign is, then you are pretty much home and dry. It's tantamount to fraud. Have a look around Google maps/street view and see if you can determine where it is - or post the image on here.

[green_and_mean]

I think its a bit hasty to start claiming this is a slam dunk win we have seen neither the PCN nor the location. The fact that there was a sign nearby saying 'permit area ends' would suggest that at some point a sign saying 'permits only beyond here' was passed before parking.

[thecookiemonster]

Just looked on street view, in October 2012 there were proper bays that weren't blacked out plus other signs stating about it being a permit zone but they have been ripped out.

 

The sign which the CEO took a photo of is very hard to find, I can't see it so far it must be on a completely different street.

[thecookiemonster]

I'm going to upload the photo that the CEO took, from the entrance we came in there were no signs anywhere, if they are a quarter of a mile away in another street then I can't see how we can be at fault.

 

Also, if the parking bays have been blacked out completely then to me that says even if there were signs it renders it invalid.

[thecookiemonster]

 

This is the photo taken by the CEO, the pictures of my car were taken at 2.04pm, this sign is nowhere to be seen where we parked.

 

If you look at the pics I took at the time the ticket was issued, there's a pole with nothing on it, if you look on street view it shows that in October 2012 there was a permit holders only sign there but there's none on that street or the entrance to that street now.

[green_and_mean]

You will need to show you got to where you parked without passing a permit sign, the fact that is not one in the street you passed is less important.

[Jamberson]

What road / town were you ticketed in?

[thecookiemonster]

Bathhurst Road, Swindon but on street view the permit signs that were there are no longer there, at both ends of the street.

[Jamberson]

Can you get an image of the end of Bathurst Road as you turn in off the main road, without a sign? If so that will help.

 

This is where the CEO took his photo. You can identify the building by the pipes and wires on the walls. It's the end of Alfred Street. The fact that the CEO walked away from where you were parked and photographed this sign is enough to suggest that there was no sign at the entrance to the street you were parked in. You can prove that he walked off to a completely different location to obtain it.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]52817[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]52818[/ATTACH]

[Michael Browne]

TRO and maps for new Zone J scheme which came into effect in April 2014 here:

http://www.swindon.gov.uk/ts/ts-roadshighways/ts-roadshighways-regulation/Pages/ts-roadshighways-regulation-experimentallist.aspx

[thecookiemonster]

Can you get an image of the end of Bathurst Road as you turn in off the main road, without a sign? If so that will help.

 

This is where the CEO took his photo. You can identify the building by the pipes and wires on the walls. It's the end of Alfred Street. The fact that the CEO walked away from where you were parked and photographed this sign is enough to suggest that there was no sign at the entrance to the street you were parked in. You can prove that he walked off to a completely different location to obtain it.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]52817[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]52818[/ATTACH]

 

Thank you so much for the info, that sounds fraudulent.

[thecookiemonster]

Hi all,

 

My partner did not receive a satisfactory response from her local MP, she received a Notice To Owner yesterday dated the 1st September 2014, she has 28 days to respond and present her representations.

 

My issue is that the CEO has taken a picture of a sign far away from where my partner was parked, also, is there any laws that I can use as obviously the bays were greyed out so how can they legally say that a no permit offence was committed?

 

Thank you all once again.

[Jamberson]

As I mentioned above, you aren't deemed to be in contravention of a parking bay. You are in contravention of the traffic order, whether the road markings are there, and are clear, or not. So if the traffic order says permits only, and you didn't have one on show, that's a contravention - but you can defend it if the restriction is not adequately signed.

 

I suggest you just collect together all the info you can, send a clear letter and diagrams/photos etc. by way of a representation to the council, and hopefully you will get a result. if not, you can still take it further.

 

I wouldn't bother trying to get an MP involved. You've not ever gone through formal appeals yet.

[thecookiemonster]

Thanks again Jamberson.

 

There seems to be a new sign down the street which wasn't there before, you clearly cannot see it on the photos i took the day my partner was issued with a notice.

 

I still think this is totally wrong due to the CEO taking a picture of a sign far away, I think that should be enough alone to win this case but it has not worked so far.

[thecookiemonster]

***UPDATE***

 

I received a letter from my MP today saying he was disappointed that my parking fine hasn't been overturned and that enclosed was a copy from the council explaining why saying the following:-

 

Over the last 2 years we have been working with local people and their representatives to make improvements for the residents in these areas. These include the signing of each vehicle entry point into zones with a large entry sign advising that only resident permit parking is available past this point. A corrresponding signs is at each vehicular exit point advising drivers that they are leaving the zone. By doing this, we have been able to remove a large amount of street clutter such as the signage that was previously needed at each parking bay. This has made it possible to improve the living space enjoyed by people living locally.

 

Our review was implemented in Zone J, which includes Bathurst Road, on the 7th April 2014.

 

Traffic Regulations allow an option for 'repeater' signage to be errected where the Authority considers this necessary. As part of the installation, the need for these repeater signs was reviewed throughout this area and some were erected, however, although reviewed none were thought to be required in Bathurst Road.

 

So that was the main point of their letter and that they won't cancel the PCN and that it's now at the notice to owner stage which my partner has recently received.

[thecookiemonster]

***UPDATE***

 

I received a letter from my MP today saying he was disappointed that my parking fine hasn't been overturned and that enclosed was a copy from the council explaining why saying the following:-

 

Over the last 2 years we have been working with local people and their representatives to make improvements for the residents in these areas. These include the signing of each vehicle entry point into zones with a large entry sign advising that only resident permit parking is available past this point. A corrresponding signs is at each vehicular exit point advising drivers that they are leaving the zone. By doing this, we have been able to remove a large amount of street clutter such as the signage that was previously needed at each parking bay. This has made it possible to improve the living space enjoyed by people living locally.

 

Our review was implemented in Zone J, which includes Bathurst Road, on the 7th April 2014.

 

Traffic Regulations allow an option for 'repeater' signage to be errected where the Authority considers this necessary. As part of the installation, the need for these repeater signs was reviewed throughout this area and some were erected, however, although reviewed none were thought to be required in Bathurst Road.

 

So that was the main point of their letter and that they won't cancel the PCN and that it's now at the notice to owner stage which my partner has recently received.

[Jamberson]

They are saying that you will have passed signs as you entered the controlled zone. As I understand it, you say you did not pass any - right?

 

So, if you can get an image of the end of the road where the zone starts, and show there was no sign, you seem to have a solid case. The fact that you now have the council in writing saying each vehicle entry point is signed only adds to their own failure.

 

Can you get such an image? If so, include that as part of your representation.