Barclaycard debt - no CCA - Do I CCA again? being passed around

[andyb78]

I would keep it simple.

 

I might send something like this.

 

Dear Sirs.

 

I note your letter of demand, ref XXX-XXXX.

 

I have previously requested a copy of the agreement for this account, a valid request according to the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I was informed at the time that no copy of the agreement was available. The account is therefore unenforceable.

 

I therefore require that you desist from proceeding to action, or alternatively I request that you provide me with a true copy of the agreement for the account under S.77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 within 14 working days.

 

Let me know how you intend to proceed.

 

Yours Faithfully,

 

You

 

You are addressing solicitors. They know the rules and you will lose respect by trying to point those rules out to them.

 

OK, that make sense. Last thing I want is more hassle.

 

I'm going to CCA Arrow again, just to be safe. I'll also send the above and maybe include something like "for the avoidance of doubt, I have issued another CCA request for your client to adhere to"

 

But also request the same from Shoosmiths as you have said above.

[andyb78]

for a 2003 agreement they will NEED the signed agreement. no if's or but's

 

 

per I'd be sending shoes a CCA request

 

 

blank PO don't sign the letter.

copy and staple their last letter to the CCA request.........

 

 

 

 

if yo need all the statements

you'll have to SAR Canadian Square address.

 

 

only my views

but I wouldn't bother with any other letter

not worth it.

fess up shoes or bugger off.

they know they'll lose in court

with NO CCA as they've done lots of time here already.

dx

 

 

OK, CCA to Shoosmiths it is then. Didn't realise I could do that.

 

Many thanks for the advice as always.

[fletch70]

Hi Andy

The reason i said i will get shot is that i borrowed that letter from somewhere else.

The reason i suggested it is because i am told that courts are now getting very particular about the pre action protocols.

The point of them is to try and minimise court time etc.

It's a full disclosure thing.

On this i would disagree with dx

 

however although not strictly necessary a new cca request would be a good idea.

If they do manage to provide a recon cca they do not strictly speaking have to provide the original signed document

but without it you have the advantage.

 

A positive assertion with reasons that you didn't sign such an agreement should win the day.

 

Finally if you do want to pay up then a very carefully drafted letter offering a very low full and final would be a start.

Maybe start at 10% of the balance and increase if necessary

[andyb78]

Thanks a lot for your help, I really appreciate it.

 

I have fired of a CCA letter to Arrow again, just to be safe, asking for a signed copy of the agreement as per the fact the debt is pre 2006.

 

I also sent a letter to Shoosmiths asking them to hold fire while a CCA is not forth coming, as per the post above.

 

In the same letter it asks them to provide one too, as they should have this info to successfully make a claim against me i guess?

 

I have also sent a SAR request to Egg, as if I can see what PPI charges are on the account,

I may even be able to get most of the debt written of or covered by that amount.

 

How long can I leave it before asking for a full and final with Arrow?

 

I have not been in this situation with a potential court demand being made.

 

Is there a point of no return as such, as in no matter what letters I send

or if I want to make a settlement, the case will go ahead regardless?

[fletch70]

Andy

You sent out the original cca requests in 2013.

When was the last time you paid anything towards this account?

If you have already said then I apologise I missed it.

 

There is no real right or wrong time to make an offer but if they can not supply a valid cca I would ask why pay at all ?

Some people have different views to me but I believe if they can't get it right it is only karma that they reap what they sow.

The one thing you really want to avoid is a ccj so if they cough up an agreement I would then reconsider an offer .

It is unlikely imo that they will have all the paperwork needed to win a defended claim.

[andyb78]

I cancelled my DMP in June 2013, which was when the last payments were made.

I CCA'd each creditor and not one came back with a signed agreement, all my debts were pre 2003.

 

I guess that i'm just a little nervous to let it get to court and see if it gets thrown out, that's almost like Russian roulette for me. Or am I worrying too much, do you think the solicitor will give up without a CCA?

 

Also, I have read here that Shoosmiths have successfully obtained a CCJ against people, but without the CCA they can't actually claim the money itself, but with the CCJ the damage is done. Or have i got this wrong?

 

Thanks again.

Edited September 1, 2018 by dx100uk
quote

[dx100uk]

in the legal forum:

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?170-Financial-Legal-Issues

 

 

and the successes forum:

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?190-DCA-Legal-Successes

 

 

you'll see lots of stays/discontinued shoe's claims.

 

 

it is worthy to note...if you defend and they have no cca they don't get judgement

[fletch70]

The law is a funny old thing. For a debt of that age to be enforceable the creditor has to show that on the balance of probabilities you signed an agreement containing all the prescribed terms . In addition it needs to have been defaulted and terminated correctly. Of course the easiest way to show this is to be able to provide a copy of the signed agreement but many creditors can't. In the absence of a signed agreement they have to show that you probably did sign one.

 

Now just to be warned, there was a case last year where the Judge decided that even without a signed agreement he thought there probably was one although it must be said that the defendants in that case had run up the bill immediately prior to defaulting and were not credible witnesses.

 

All that is different to a S77-79 request (cca request) . If the creditor does not comply with that request it would be an absolute defence for you . Note though that they do not need a signed agreement for a cca request , a recon will do.

 

DX is correct that there are lots of successes or claims stayed/struck out where I suspect if truth be known there was a signed agreement but the banks just didn't keep good records or couldn't be bothered to dig it out.

 

It is a bit of a lottery and a lot also can depend on your circumstances, do you have a job, a house etc etc . I am a mature student with no property or assets and have had some debts written off and most have just gone quiet on me , oddly it tends to be little ones that are causing the most grief. My total debt level is somewhere between 40 and 50K but so long as no claims come they will all be statue barred in 3 years (before I graduate)

[andyb78]

OK, so if they don't need a signed copy of the agreement and only a recon,

how do I know for sure that the terms that they send to me are what I signed and agreed to?

 

I am due to start a job where I can afford to pay the bill in full pretty quickly, but rightly or wrongly,

the stress and pain they put me through over the years has left a sour taste, so it's almost out of principal that I don't want to pay.

 

 

And in terms of this debt, i'm pretty sure that it has been paid off and the DCA's keep increasing it,

so I can't wait for the SAR to come from Egg and use the info on here to evaluate it properly and fingers crossed I might be owed money!

Edited September 1, 2018 by dx100uk
quote

[fletch70]

This is exactly the problem when they send a recon. You can of course google certain info , maybe images of CCA's from who ever to compare. In times gone by they used to drop clangers such as getting the charges incorrect at the time of inception. One idea I have used is to look at the original T&C's as well as the default T&C's to see if they are different.

Of course if I was cynical and perish the thought that I am as the T&C's are often in a separate document how could you be sure anyway?

[dx100uk]

they will NEED the signed agreement

else they will lose the case.

 

 

no if's or but's

 

 

dx

[fletch70]

they will NEED the signed agreement

else they will lose the case.

 

 

no if's or but's

 

 

dx

 

Tell that to the Frosts

Arrow Global V Frost

I have a copy of the judgement . There was no signed agreement but as I said before the Judge labelled them unreliable witnesses

[andyb78]

Typical it was bloody Arrow that got a successful judgement without the CCA, that will probably inspire them to continue rather than back down without it!

 

I hope that as DX says, without the signed CCA, it wont even make court.

 

Thanks all for your help.

[fletch70]

There is a very strong possibility that provided you keep them informed of the lack of cca request or lack of signed agreement it wont even get to a claim and if it does during pre action disclosure they would discontinue. I just think people need to be aware that even a defended claim was lost? It is true it was quite specific, the card was maxed out just before default and the witness could not make a positive assertion nothing was signed and got dates mixed up. The judge thought that at best she was mistaken and at worst , well not being totally honest.

The aim now is first to try and keep it out of court and then to defend if it gets there. I have sent letters in the past asking them to confirm if they do or do not hold the original signed agreement. I asked under CPUTR 2008

[fletch70]

This is the letter I used with a couple of my creditors , one with a balance of 15K the other over 5K. One replied admitting they did not have the original the other ignored me completely however I have not heard from them in over a year (touch wood) . It is of course no guarantee but if it makes you feel more comfortable then go for it.

 

There are some on here who say ignore everything unless a claim comes through , there are others who say reply to every letter. I sit somewhere in the middle, I reply to letters that I think have some importance e.g a new DCA or what might be a threat. Sometimes it is just to say I refer you to my letter of xxxxxx (which might have been a letter saying they were in default of a CCA request or in some cases a case of take me to court or shut up-just remember that I have no job and no assets as such so they are pretty much wasting money chasing me -I hope)

Dear Sirs

Ref: xxxxxxxx

This is a formal request under the Consumer Protection From Unfair Trading Regulations (CPUTR) 2008.

I require your organisation to provide written confirmation that states clearly whether you currently hold an original signed Consumer Credit Agreement, or whether you do not hold an original signed Consumer Credit Agreement pertaining to myself.

For the avoidance of doubt, an original signed Consumer Credit Agreement is just that; not an application for credit and not a reconstructed or microfiched document from other sources but indeed the original signed document purporting to be signed by myself.

Please note that until such times as a legally enforceable, original Consumer Credit Agreement can be produced and a copy sent to me by return, then this letter is not an acknowledgement of debt and this account will remain in an unenforceable state protected in line with s.127 (CCA1974).

Please also note that failure to provide a direct answer to this request will be brought before the court, should you decide to defy the content of this letter and instruct solicitors to pursue enforcement action regardless.

Yours faithfully,

[andyb78]

Hi Fletch

 

Thanks so much for the letter template.

 

 

I will fire this one off to Arrow once they fall outside of the 14 day CCA request that I have sent again.

 

 

I guess that there is no need to send this to Shoo's as well, as the content is requesting the DCA to call off the solicitors?

 

Fingers crossed that they don't find the CCA this time around! I'm sure they would have come forward with gusto if they had it the first time.

 

I'm still itching to get the SAR paperwork from Egg,

 

 

as I must have some PPI on there as a minimum.

 

 

Out of interest, what happens if they fail on the SAR request?

 

 

How do I get proof of the PPI without it?

[dx100uk]

ppi will be on the CCA

[fletch70]

I am assuming it is a credit card, I haven't read back.

 

Assuming it is the amount you have definitely paid will not be on the CCA (if it was an enforceable loan agreement it would be). If they do not come back with the SAR then you can go to the ICO. The only thing I would warn is that if you claim back PPI it will be very difficult if not impossible not to acknowledge the debt however if any repayment covers the total it is well worth it

[andyb78]

It's an Egg loan I have been talking about recently.

[fletch70]

Ah right , in which case yes the amount of PPI should be on the CCA request and as a separate amount.

[andyb78]

OK, a quick update.

 

I have received a reply from Arrow saying that they need information from me to confirm my address to allow them to meet my CCA request?

 

I put my reply address on the letter that I sent, which is my family address, where they have always contacted me

(i currently live in a rented property, so didn't want important post coming here in case I move again).

 

 

It offers me lots of solutions to supply them with the information they need, but on the very last paragraph it states

that they have put the account on hold until they can obtain the information to meet my request.

 

 

Now, as far as I'm concerned, this means that the account is on hold as they don't have the CCA to hand, not because they want me to confirm my address first.

 

I will upload the letter tomorrow evening for you guys to take a look at.

 

Also, I have not received a reply from Shoosmith's to my letter stating that I wanted proof of a CCA

and that I was sending another CCA request to Arrow for the avoidance of doubt.

Not sure whether that is a good or bad thing?

[dx100uk]

lets see the letter first

 

 

dx

[andyb78]

for a 2003 agreement they will NEED the signed agreement. no if's or but's

 

 

per I'd be sending shoes a CCA request

 

 

blank PO don't sign the letter.

copy and staple their last letter to the CCA request.........

 

 

 

 

if yo need all the statements

you'll have to SAR Canadian Square address.

 

 

only my views

but I wouldn't bother with any other letter

not worth it.

fess up shoes or bugger off.

they know they'll lose in court

with NO CCA as they've done lots of time here already.

dx

 

 

I sent the SAR to Egg at the address mentioned and they returned the PO with no explanation?

[dx100uk]

give em a ring and ask why

 

 

dx

[andyb78]

Ok, will do