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I'm a small business. New employee cynically using disability law for her own benefit. HELP


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Hi, I'm as mad as hell about this, but I will try to keep a level head to explain, and any advice you can all give I'd really be grateful.

 

I run a small business - 7 employees. But I was hoping to expand a few months ago and realised I needed to take on an office administrator to deal with the day-to-day running of things. (Simple tasks like photocopying, ordering toner cartridges and paper, etc).

 

I found someone and from the start she was awful. Incompetent, bolshy, not right for me or the other 6 workers in the company. But I'm not a monster so I gave her direction, training and advice on how to improve. She seemed to take my offer of help as a criticism.

 

I let things go for 6 weeks, but she's made so many mistakes and her attitude has deteriorated big time. So after careful consideration I decided to let her go today.

 

I tried to do it as respectfully and honestly as possible, but she turned round with a massive cynical grin on her face and said (and I'm quoting) -

 

"Haha, f*** you, you can't fire me I'm pregnant and if you try to fire me I'll tell them that you're discriminating against me. I now want £3000 or you're stuck with me".

 

I'm not joking! She was only on minimum wage and had already taken time off in her first month due to hangovers, 'flu', etc.

 

But reading around this forum I fear she may be right that there are certain cards women/ethnic minorities can play to excuse the fact they are crap at their job that suddenly mean I can't do anything as a hard working small business owner.

 

Please tell me this isn't true?

 

(Sorry if my post sounds bitter, but right now I'm fuming because I can't see anything that contradicts her legal rights now she's told me TODAY that she's 'suddenly' pregnant')

 

Advice please.

 

Thanx Rx

 

Admin - please can you edit my thread title, I put new 'employer' should be new 'employee' (changes meaning. thanx

Edited by Rayter
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She has to prove you discriminated against her. A tribunal wont simply take her word for it. I take it you have documentation to prove she wasnt right for the job?

Edited by citizenB

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

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Hi, I'm as mad as hell about this, but I will try to keep a level head to explain, and any advice you can all give I'd really be grateful.

 

I run a small business - 7 employees. But I was hoping to expand a few months ago and realised I needed to take on an office administrator to deal with the day-to-day running of things. (Simple tasks like photocopying, ordering toner cartridges and paper, etc).

 

I found someone and from the start she was awful. Incompetent, bolshy, not right for me or the other 6 workers in the company. But I'm not a monster so I gave her direction, training and advice on how to improve. She seemed to take my offer of help as a criticism.

 

I let things go for 6 weeks, but she's made so many mistakes and her attitude has deteriorated big time. So after careful consideration I decided to let her go today.

 

I tried to do it as respectfully and honestly as possible, but she turned round with a massive cynical grin on her face and said (and I'm quoting) -

 

"Haha, f*** you, you can't fire me I'm pregnant and if you try to fire me I'll tell them that you're discriminating against me. I now want £3000 or you're stuck with me".

 

I'm not joking! She was only on minimum wage and had already taken time off in her first month due to hangovers, 'flu', etc.

 

But reading around this forum I fear she may be right that there are certain cards women/ethnic minorities can play to excuse the fact they are crap at their job that suddenly mean I can't do anything as a hard working small business owner.

 

Please tell me this isn't true?

 

(Sorry if my post sounds bitter, but right now I'm fuming because I can't see anything that contradicts her legal rights now she's told me TODAY that she's 'suddenly' pregnant')

 

Advice please.

 

Thanx Rx

 

You can't fire her because she is pregnant.

You can't pretend to find fault with her because she is pregnant and dress it up as she is rubbish at her job.

 

However, pregnancy doesn't give her a magic "get out of jail free" card from being incapable of performing her job (pregnant or not).

 

If you have documented the steps you have taken to warn her she was failing, and the support & training offered that she is then still failing despite that help - AND this was all done prior to her announcement of pregnancy - an Employment Tribunal would likely find her dismissal was inevitable, regardless and irrespective of her pregnancy.

 

Are you prepared to rebutt any presumption that she is being dismissed for being pregnant?

How good are your records / notes of meetings ?

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thanks for reply. I don't really know what documentation you mean. She was just crap at the job. I didn't keep a record of everything she did wrong. Why would I? I've never had any issues with my other employees.

 

I guess maybe I have been naive?

 

But it looks bad for me because the day I fired her is the day she told me she was pregnant. I KNOW which order it happened in. But I can't prove it.

Edited by citizenB
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A good employer should always keep documentation of training/retraining/disciplinaries and chats about work etc. Its more for your benefit when things like this happen.

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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Hi Rayter

 

Welcome to CAG

 

The following isn't factually correct, it's stereotyping on a huge scale 'women/ethnic minorities can play to excuse the fact they are crap at their job'.

 

I would tape any further conversations with this individual, see if you can get her to say the same thing again, ask her 'what do you mean?, I will tell them that your discriminating against me'. Draw the information out carefully. Boxclever. Are there any witnesses?

 

Haha, f*** you, you can't fire me I'm pregnant and if you try to fire me I'll tell them that you're discriminating against me. I now want £3000 or you're stuck with me".

 

Also it could be an empty threat, she's not pregnant at all, she's trying it on. Maybe she has tried that before. Check with former employers. Do a bit investigating on her.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi, I'm as mad as hell about this, but I will try to keep a level head to explain, and any advice you can all give I'd really be grateful.

 

I run a small business - 7 employees. But I was hoping to expand a few months ago and realised I needed to take on an office administrator to deal with the day-to-day running of things. (Simple tasks like photocopying, ordering toner cartridges and paper, etc).

 

I found someone and from the start she was awful. Incompetent, bolshy, not right for me or the other 6 workers in the company. But I'm not a monster so I gave her direction, training and advice on how to improve. She seemed to take my offer of help as a criticism.

 

I let things go for 6 weeks, but she's made so many mistakes and her attitude has deteriorated big time. So after careful consideration I decided to let her go today.

 

I tried to do it as respectfully and honestly as possible, but she turned round with a massive cynical grin on her face and said (and I'm quoting) -

 

"Haha, f*** you, you can't fire me I'm pregnant and if you try to fire me I'll tell them that you're discriminating against me. I now want £3000 or you're stuck with me".

 

I'm not joking! She was only on minimum wage and had already taken time off in her first month due to hangovers, 'flu', etc.

 

But reading around this forum I fear she may be right that there are certain cards women/ethnic minorities can play to excuse the fact they are crap at their job that suddenly mean I can't do anything as a hard working small business owner.

 

Please tell me this isn't true?

 

(Sorry if my post sounds bitter, but right now I'm fuming because I can't see anything that contradicts her legal rights now she's told me TODAY that she's 'suddenly' pregnant')

 

Advice please.

 

Thanx Rx

 

Admin - please can you edit my thread title, I put new 'employer' should be new 'employee' (changes meaning. thanx

Edited by citizenB
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Sometimes I wish I was pregnant or disabled or from an ethnic minority - it would be a hell of a lot easier than trying to honestly run a small business.

 

Thanks for nothing folks.

 

SO even though she has been failing since day one and I tried to help her, she can now turn round and say the magic word 'discrimination' and I just have to suck it up? I'm not a multi-national corportation here. Oh well, if that's the way it is, I'll just never employ anyone of child-bearing age again, but do it craftily at interview. How depressing.

Edited by citizenB
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Woah there. Have you even read any of the replies here?

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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Sometimes I wish I was pregnant or disabled or from an ethnic minority - it would be a hell of a lot easier than trying to honestly run a small business.

 

Thanks for nothing folks.

 

SO even though she has been failing since day one and I tried to help her, she can now turn round and say the magic word 'discrimination' and I just have to suck it up? I'm not a multi-national corportation here. Oh well, if that's the way it is, I'll just never employ anyone of child-bearing age again, but do it craftily at interview. How depressing.

 

"Thanks for nothing folks " .... I can understand you feel bitter, but would you prefer we tell you other than how it is?.

 

you've had the best advice as far as I'm aware, both noting what you SHOULD have done (it not being our fault if you haven't!), and even some advice on how you might rescue the situation.

 

If you now get caught discriminating at interview : you've openly admitted planning on doing so 'craftily'.

 

Good luck.

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yes renegade I have. All seems a bit loaded towards telling people how they can screw their employer for as much as possible. That's fine when it's a massive corporation (I used to work for one myself), but I've only just started my own new business in the last 5 years and it's all been going hard work but steady, until this.

 

Hopefully the advice here doesn't just flow one way? What can I do? I'm so angry right now. She's so damn cynical, but seems to know the legal rights. It can't be right?

Edited by citizenB
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She has left her case wide open with her email - I think you will find that unless she already told you she was expecting when you took her on she cannot now use it as an 'excuse',. plus she has not been in post for more than 3 months (at least from reading your posts that appears to be the case) she has a very thin chance of her 'threat' being accepted, plus they would not 'automatically' make you pay her £3000 as she has not 'contributed to the company' for that amount of time.

Edited by citizenB
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Not sure why you are getting defensive here. The peeps are trying to help you.

 

You are not a multinational corporation but you still have to obey the laws of this land if you want to do business in this country. As a business owner you have an obligation to know what you must do.

 

THAT being said if this is not a troll and what you say is accurate, then what she has done is out of order.

 

Having meeting notes is part of a due diligence process. it keeps both you and the employee on the straight and narrow. In this case it could be used to defend you had you have done them. Im assuming you will be learning a lot from this situation.

 

Technically if you dismissed her before you knew she was pregnant then you are technically ok. However you need to be able to prove it. What she has said to you is pure blackmail.

 

Sometimes I wish I was pregnant or disabled or from an ethnic minority - it would be a hell of a lot easier than trying to honestly run a small business.

 

Thanks for nothing folks.

 

SO even though she has been failing since day one and I tried to help her, she can now turn round and say the magic word 'discrimination' and I just have to suck it up? I'm not a multi-national corportation here. Oh well, if that's the way it is, I'll just never employ anyone of child-bearing age again, but do it craftily at interview. How depressing.

Edited by citizenB

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The SabreSheep, All information is offered on good faith and based on mine and others experiences. I am not a qualified legal professional and you should always seek legal advice if you are unsure of your position.

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She has left her case wide open with her email - I think you will find that unless she already told you she was expecting when you took her on she cannot now use it as an 'excuse',. plus she has not been in post for more than 3 months (at least from reading your posts that appears to be the case) she has a very thin chance of her 'threat' being accepted, plus they would not 'automatically' make you pay her £3000 as she has not 'contributed to the company' for that amount of time.

 

Thanx sillygirl, but what I'm worried about is that now she's told me today she's preggers I can no longer just give her the statutrory weeks notice because she was still under probation and hadn't worked for me for more than two years? Is this correct? If I just send her home on Monday with a week's pay in lieu of finishing her last week (because we can't stand the sight of her any more due to her attitude) will she have good cause to come back and sue me now she's said the 'magic word'?

Edited by citizenB
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She cant simply come and sue you. Theres a ton of procedure in place that both parties must follow. If that was true, then everyone would be abusing the system.

Edited by citizenB

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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She has left her case wide open with her email - I think you will find that unless she already told you she was expecting when you took her on she cannot now use it as an 'excuse',. plus she has not been in post for more than 3 months (at least from reading your posts that appears to be the case) she has a very thin chance of her 'threat' being accepted, plus they would not 'automatically' make you pay her £3000 as she has not 'contributed to the company' for that amount of time.

 

Did she make her threat in email?

The OP noted : "she turned round with a massive cynical grin on her face and said (and I'm quoting) "

 

I read that to mean she grinned in real-life & spoke in real- life, rather than communicating by e-mail

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She cant simply come and sue you. Theres a ton of procedure in place that both parties must follow. If that was true, then everyone would be abusing the system.

 

This is what I'm worried about. I'm new to being self-employed (coming up to 5 years). I've never had a situation like this before. I always assumed people were alright. Work or don't work, etc.

Edited by citizenB
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Did she make her threat in email?

The OP noted : "she turned round with a massive cynical grin on her face and said (and I'm quoting) "

 

I read that to mean she grinned in real-life & spoke in real- life, rather than communicating by e-mail

 

Totally BazzaS, whole conversation happened at lunchtime today, face to face. For what it's worth I was polite and tried to be as calm as possible. But now I've got a glass of wine on the go I'm starting to rage.

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If you wind up in trouble now it's because you have been slack in putting proper disciplinary procedures in place. The issue is not so much to do with women and ethic minorities (sounding bigoted much?) but your own lax procedures in thinking as a small employer you just didn't need to bother.

 

If you could stop being angry at the world and redirect that to yourself, you'll be looking at the right place.

 

Now. Lots of business have a one day a week or month HR person for advice such as this. You could also do with someone for a month to write and implement proper employee handbook/ procedures for you. I would find one and get on that.

 

As for your problem with the individual - well, I am a woman of child bearing age so am not going to be able to give you advice, being as you have craftily sifted me out at interview. Oh well!

Edited by citizenB

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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if you wind up in trouble now it's because you have been slack in putting proper disciplinary procedures in place. The issue is not so much to do with women and ethic minorities (sounding bigoted much?) but your own lax procedures in thinking as a small employer you just didn't need to bother.

 

Don't forget to "take a swipe" at the disabled too - the OP didn't forget to include them in their list.

 

Recast directive (2006/54)? Equality Act 2010?

How dare they fetter the small business?

(Or is that small-minded business, aiming to apply the attitudes of the 1950's to women, minorities and the disabled)

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As jhas been said, you can give her the statutory notice period and if she kicks up a fuss you can defend your position as a small employer, as somebody who had given her a chance to improve and as somebody who has never experienced a nasty employee before. Those things will be in your favour.

 

If she bleats on about taking you to court turn round and tell her to do so - explain clearly that every future meeting with her will be recorded and used as evidence in court, and her work record will be thoroughly investigated by an independent person as part of the tribunal - this does happen and people have been 'found out' via that route to 'have pulled the same stunt on an employer previously'.

 

Explain (in writing) that you need medical evidence of her pregnancy, need the expected date of confinement and that as she is not returning to your employment after the birth date she will be on basic SSP, especially in view of her short time in your employment.

 

One question, did she have a written contract and what was the signing date of that - and did the contract specify a probation period and a termination within probation period.... if so then she has very little to gain by going to court for what would be a long and lengthy process for both parties.

 

Don't forget you also cannot technically give a 'bad' reference - you are entitled to decline a full reference and simply state the dates of employment and mention that a tribunal is taking place - that may deter a future employer from employing her.

 

I have some experience of the tribunal process and believe me, it is quite protracted, it is not as easy as one person shouting 'I am being discriminated against'.

 

There is a fee course on Ethnicity and Diversity which can be done online which goes into discrimination in detail and gives a very good oveview of the meanings of discrimination, and underlying legislation - it is a Level 2 NVQ course and is worth doing if you are a small employer (I did it as I want to go into self employment when my current contract ends). I can put a link here to some of the documentation if you are interested.

 

Simply being pregnant isn't necessarily protection against being made redundant or poorly performing at a role, if the role was unsuitable in the first place and chances were given for improvement there is very little she can do.

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Explain (in writing) that you need medical evidence of her pregnancy, need the expected date of confinement and that as she is not returning to your employment after the birth date she will be on basic SSP, especially in view of her short time in your employment.

 

Don't forget you also cannot technically give a 'bad' reference - you are entitled to decline a full reference and simply state the dates of employment and mention that a tribunal is taking place - that may deter a future employer from employing her.

 

Unwise to state in writing (or otherwise) she "isn't returning after the birth" : that does make it look like discrimination regarding her pregnancy!.

 

I disagree that "you also cannot technically give a 'bad' reference" : of course you can! - you just need to ensure it is factually correct and can be justified if challenged, rather than just giving an opinion. State facts that can be supported with evidence - allow anyone reading it to form (from the factual reference) the opinion it is a 'bad' reference : sorted

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Explain (in writing) that you need medical evidence of her pregnancy, need the expected date of confinement and that as she is not returning to your employment after the birth date she will be on basic SSP, especially in view of her short time in your employment.

 

 

Don't forget you also cannot technically give a 'bad' reference - you are entitled to decline a full reference and simply state the dates of employment and mention that a tribunal is taking place - that may deter a future employer from employing her.

 

1. He's no grounds to ask for that until it is volunteered

2. No bad references = urban myth. They just have to be factual.

 

NVQ link sounds like it'd be useful for lots of people please :)

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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OP, I sincerely hope that your comment about sifting women out was an off the cuff and knee jerk remark made as a result of one bad egg and that you aren't seriously planning to go through with it. I've had to face similar prejudices in a professional industry and it's highly unpleasant. Women in my industry do seem to be disadvantaged by the odd few men with similar thought processes and I can assure you it isn't warranted - some of us do happily and successfully hold down children and a career :)

 

Anyway, that aside - your nightmare employee will have to pay £1,200 in court fees to be able to sue you, unless she applies for remission. It's not straightforward. And if she told you she was pregnant AFTER you dismissed her, there can't be any discrimination.

 

I would suggest you follow up the meeting by confirming the dismissal in writing, paying her in lieu of notice and untaken holiday and state clearly the reasons for dismissal (why her attitude was poor and her poor sickness record) and hope that's the end of it. If she does try to take it further, please let us know and we will guide you through what to do next.

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Emmzzi, thanks for the advice on the references - I have moved over to NHS payroll instead of NHS HR and am a bit out of touch with some bits of legislation.

 

Here is the link to the free course via vision2learn, I think it is a useful one to do and makes you aware of the legislation and how to approach different situations. I am looking at doing another free course, (possibly accounting as I am a bit rusty in that) to help my business case. When you register you are appointed a tutor college but everything is done online. I did the course in 3 months online when I was unemployed, just to prove that I was seriously ''enhancing my employability by proving I was still actively engaged in a learning environment/experience" to quote the Work Provider's blurb!

 

http://www.vision2learn.net/channels/courses/equality-and-diversity.aspx

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