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    • I've inserted their poc re:your.. 1 ..they did send 2 paploc's  3. neither the agreement nor default is mentioned in their 2.        
    • Hi Guys, i read a fair few threads and saw a lot of similar templates being used. i liked this one below and although i could elaborate on certain things (they ignored my CCA and sent 2 PAPs etc etc) , am i right in that at this stage keep it short? If thats the case i cant see what i need to add/change about this one   1)   the defendant entered into a consumer credit act 1974 regulated agreements vanquis under account reference xxxxxxx 2)   The defendant failed to maintain the required payment, arrears began to accrue 3)   The agreement was later assigned to the claimant on 29 September 2017 and notice given to the defendant 4)   Despite repeated requests for payment, the sum of 2247.91 remains due outstanding And the claimant claims a)The said sum of £2247.91 b)The interest pursuant to S 69 county courts act 1984 at the rate of 8% per annum from the date of issue, accruing at a daily rate of £xxxx, but limited to one year,  being £xxxx c)Costs   Defence:   The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim vague and are generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made.   1. The Claimant has not complied with paragraph 3 of the PAPDC ( Pre Action Protocol) Failed to serve a letter of claim pre claim pursuant to PAPDC changes of the 1st October 2017.It is respectfully requested that the court take this into consideration pursuant to 7.1 PAPDC.   2. The Claimant claims £2247.91 is owed under a regulated consumer credit account under reference xxxxxxx. I do not recall the precise details or agreement and have sought verification from the claimant and the claimants solicitor by way of a CPR 31.14 and section 78 request who are yet to fully comply.   3. Paragraph 2 is denied. I am unable to recall the precise details of the alleged agreement or any default notice served in breach of any defaulted payments. 4. Paragraph 3 is denied.The Defendant contends that no notice of assignment pursuant to s.136 of the Law of Property Act & s.82 A of the CCA1974 has ever been served by the Claimant as alleged or at all.   5. It is therefore denied with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant, the Claimant has failed to provide any evidence of assignment/balance/breach requested by CPR 31. 14, therefore the Claimant is put to strict proof to:   (a) show how the Defendant has entered into an agreement; and (b) show and evidence any cause of action and service of a Default Notice or termination notice; and © show how the Defendant has reached the amount claimed for; and (d) show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim;   6. After receiving this claim I requested by way of a CPR 31.14 request and a section 78 request for copies of any documents referred to within the Claimants' particulars to establish what the claim is for. To date they have failed to comply to my CPR 31.14 request and also my section 78 request and remain in default with regards to this request.   7. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.   8. On the alternative, as the Claimant is an assignee of a debt, it is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer credit Act 1974.   9. By reasons of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.  
    • i understand. Just be aware I am prepared to take some risks 😉
    • Thanks Tnook,   Bear with us while we discuss this behind the scenes - we want you to win just as much as you do but we want to find the right balance between maximising your claim without risking too much in court fees, and in possible court costs awarded to the defendant bank.
    • Tell your son and think on this. He can pay the £160  and have no further worries from them. If he read POFA  Scedule 4 he would find out that if he went to Court and lost which is unlikely on two counts at least [1] they don't do Court and 2] they know they would lose in Court] the most he would be liable to pay them is £100 or whatever the amount on the sign says. He is not liable for the admin charges as that only applies to the driver-perhaps.If he kept his nerve, he would find out that he does not owe them a penny and that applies to the driver as well. But we do need to see the signage at the entrance to the car park and around the car park as well as any T&Cs on the payment meter if there is one. He alone has to work out whether it is worth taking a few photographs to help avoid paying a single penny to these crooks as well as receiving letters threatening him with Court , bailiffs  etc trying to scare him into paying money he does not owe. They know they cannot take him to Court. They know he does not owe them a penny. But they are hoping he does not know so he pays them. If he does decide to pay, tell him to wait as eventually as a last throw of the dice they play Mister Nice Guy and offer a reduction. Great. Whatever he pays them it will be far more than he owes as their original PCN is worthless. Read other threads where our members have been ticketed for not having a permit. [We know so little about the situation that we do not know if he has a permit and forgot to display it. ]
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LordZoot5027

Substituting or Adding Parties After Default Judgement

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Under CPR 19.2 (4), can parties be substituted or added after default Judgement? Any case laws would be welcome.

 

Thanks

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Under CPR 19.2 (4), can parties be substituted or added after default Judgement? Any case laws would be welcome.

 

Thanks

 

Afraid not...they have judgment....claim has finished.

 

Regards

 

Andy


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@honeybee13

 

Thanks for responding. Yes it is. The default judgment was obtained 4 months prior against "Persons Unknown". The substitution was done based on the above CPR. I genuinely need some help as I believe it should not have happened.

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But only a defendant can be added not a party...was you a substituted defendant? Did you give your permission.

Court permission is normally required after service...I have never heard of a party being substituted after judgment......it would require a retrial.


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@andy....thanks. Yes, I'm a defendant, but I've been made to understand that even defendants cant be substituted after default judgment because the has ended as you said before. I didn't give my permission. I was opposed to it. How about the default judgment against "Persons Unknown"....is this right? Your help is very much appreciated.

Thanks

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Without knowing the full details of the claim LZ my advice is restricted.They obviously cant enforce a default judgment against an unknown person like wise they cant issue a claim.

 

You cant be added after judgment...you have not had chance to defend.


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@Andy...your response has helped so much more than you'll ever know. Thanks so much...well appreciated!

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Hi there

 

A Judge ordered the other side that they are only permitted to serve one "tranche" of evidence. Can someone please explain what this means?

 

Thanks

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Tranche just means 'slice' or 'portion'.It basically means the first portion of evidence would be served now, and presumably the rest would be served later. It is difficult to know exactly what this means in your case without a lot more context.


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@steampowered...thanks. The context is: It was a Permission to Appeal hearing. Permission was given. The Judge initially ordered that no further evidence to be served in relation to the appeal. However, the other side requested for a certain section of their submissions to be responded to. The Judge conceded and then gave permission for this response and allowed for evidence to be served in relation to this response only. He further ordered that the other side may serve one "tranche" of evidence in relation to the response they requested.

 

The other side has however gone above and beyond to procure new and fresh evidence. In the middle of the appeal process, they are now seeking disclosures from google, new investigations etc. I have no doubt that this was a pre-meditated move by them to request for this response and they are now capitalising on this. In essence, the evidence they provided at the judgment was flawed, hence the appeal and subsequent permission.

 

Am I right to assume that, what is being appealed is the evidence put forward at the time of judgment, hence they are now getting a "second bite at the cherry" and this shouldn't be the case? Does it appear that they've taken the context of "tranche" too far?

 

Many thanks

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@wonkeydonkey.....good question. I too am puzzled. The entire matter seems to be done in a very untoward manner.

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Perhaps post up some of the paperwork involved LZ..... the claim form.... the judgment and any applications...until we see some documentation everything is pie in the sky.


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I imagine the judge means the other side can serve evidence only in relation to that specific point, not in relation to the other points.

 

You are generally not supposed to introduce any new evidence on appeal at all. Appeals are only supposed to be used to say that the judge got it wrong the first time round based on the evidence presented to him. If the other side did not present evidence to the judge first time around it is normally tough luck.

 

I am sure the other side will try to use all sorts of stuff. I cannot imagine the judge would be too impressed if you make it clear that the other side did not make this evidence available at first instance and that there was no good reason for this.


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@steampowered....thanks again for your timely response. Believe it or not, the application hearing was today and the Judge granted all their application requests, which included (believe it or not), an extension of time to serve their "further evidence" and adjourning my appeal date! Please note that the google applications etc. is completely separate to the other evidence that they requested an extension of time for. I'm just dumbfounded! I am sure this sounds very bizarre....but it is true!

 

I put forward in my witness statements all the valid points, such as, they could have procured this evidence with reasonable diligence before the judgment. I further stated amongst many other things that this shows that the evidence at judgment was flawed and they shouldn't be allowed to procure this evidence they now seek. The other side manipulated the situation and milked it for all it was worth. I am an LiP, but I have no doubt that this is well and truly wrong!

 

Can you please advise, how I can go about setting this Judge's Order aside? The Judge is an HHJ. Would I have to go back to him to set it aside or will I be referred to a higher Judge? On making the application, may I ask ask for an urgent stay so as to ensure that the previous Order (HHJ's Order) remains unenforceable until the result of my application.

 

To add to this, I quoted a case law which stipulates that a Defendant cannot be substituted post judgment by default. The Judge conceded that he had never heard of this case law. However, he added that if this case law is, as said....then, in essence this would be the end of things. Unbelievably, he stated that I should bring this up at the appeal. I am of the thinking that, in the interest of justice, this should have been dealt with there and then. The other side made the pathetic excuse that they didn't get enough time to research this case law and that it's not applicable anyway. I gave notice of this oral application, the previous day as this hearing was already scheduled. I am desperate to set this aside steampowered.....Please advise.

 

Sorry to bombard you.

 

Many thanks in advance.

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Its difficult to properly advise when I don't have a proper understanding what the case is about.

 

Anyway, do I understand correctly that you had a judgment against you which you are appealing? And you now want to challenge a decision made as part of the appeal process about what evidence the respondent can produce at the appeal hearing? If that is what you want to do, to be honest I would let it go. It is extremely difficult to challenge case management orders. Challenging it is likely to be a waste of energy. I would focus my energy on preparing for the appeal hearing.

 

If you want to be citing case law at the appeal you need to be doing it properly, which means including the case law in your bundle and drawing the judge's attention to the relevant passage in the judgment. Make sure you have a proper read of the CPR rule and Practice Direction on appeals.

 

If the point you are making about whether a Defendant can be substituted on a judgment is fundamental to what your appeal is really about, then I would think the judge is correct to say it should be dealt with at the actual appeal hearing rather than an interim hearing.


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@steampowered.....thanks again. This was a hearing instigated by the Respondents for their applications for disclosure etc. to be heard? The PTA was already done and dusted and directions were already given for the appeal hearing at the PTA. However, the Respondents made all these subsequent applications (4 heard in a day to be exact!). Are the orders originating from this hearing today regarded as case management orders?

 

As I said before, one of their applications was for an extension of time to serve their further evidence. This evidence should have been served at the end of May, however they claimed that they were unable to comply with this as their response necessitated more "investigations" being done and they weren't able to collate all the evidence in time. They applied for an additional 10 days to so. The earliest date for the hearing to hear this application (amongst others) was today. Would you believe that, despite them not having had the permission to extend time (prior to today), they included all this evidence in the bundle. The Judge read the bundle and obviously thought this was all approved evidence. This was pointed out by me, but by then he had given his permission for them to procure further evidence from google etc. In view of the underhanded tactic of the Respondents, the Judge actually thought their application for extension of time was in relation to the google disclosure etc. as opposed to the documents that they were already safely secured and paginated in the bundle.

 

I am so appalled by all the underhanded tactics and feel very strongly that I was taken advantage of and the entire hearing wasn't conducted appropriately in view of all these tactics. Am I still unable to attempt to set this aside? I genuinely respect and appreciate your advice. However, I am just dumbfounded by the blatant underhandedness.

 

Many thanks

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Threads merged...LZ please do not start new threads for every different question on the same case.

 

Regards

 

Andy


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LZ this is starting to sound like a first instance case and not actually an appeal. Injunctions/orders against persons unknown are rare but they are possible but I guess there could then be some sort of redetermination/trial if the relevant people become known, which would not techinically be an appeal. To be honest I'm not entirely confident that you are barking up the correct tree with this substitution of parties stuff. But without knowing the context I am only speculating.

 

My general impression is that these orders about evidence sound all very like case management orders and thus very difficult to challenge. The general advice is that you are better off focussing on the main case and are not likely to get anywhere challenging orders about who is able to provide what evidence etc.


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@steampowered.....thanks for our advice. An appellant's notice was filed, Permission to Appeal was given and a one day hearing was scheduled for this (now adjourned). I'm not clear regarding the case management orders though. Anyway, thanks a lot for your timely responses. I appreciate this.

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So basically you want to set aside the order giving the other party an extension to file certain evidence?

 

Did I understand that right?

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@Ganymede.....thanks for your question. To clarify, I 'm not trying to set aside an order giving the other side an extension to file further evidence...that would be somewhat petty. The real issue is: At the Permission hearing, the Judge made it quite clear that there was to be no further evidence brought into the appeal. At the other side's desperate request, the Judge conceded and gave permission for me to respond to a certain area of their submissions and specifically allowed only for evidence to be presented in respect of this response. Likewise, they were given the permission to address my response within 28 days and provide one tranche of evidence in this respect. Despite the fact that they had requested for me to respond to their submissions, they failed to file their response within the stipulated time and requested for an extension to do so.

 

They then went above and beyond this further evidence which they sought an extension to file AND made three other applications for disclosure etc. It is the order granting these applications in addition to the extension which I would like to set aside. I contend that they've abused the appeal process and now seek to acquire fresh and new evidence. The evidence put forward at the judgment was flawed, hence my successful permission application. My concern is the lengths they will possibly go to, in order to manufacture this "evidence".

 

Interestingly, at the application hearing, the Judge mistakenly thought that the permission to file further evidence was in respect of the applications only. Not realising that the applications were in addition to the bulk of "further evidence" that were late in serving. However, by then he had granted the applications. In essence, I appealed the evidence at the time of judgment, so I believe it is grossly disproportionate giving them a "second bite of the cherry". As previously stated, my concerns is how they'll arrive at this evidence that they hadn't presented before the judgment which I'm appealing.

 

I hope this makes it clearer..

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