Is This Sign Legal?

[_Ray_]

Can anyone tell me if a sticker obscuring part of a parking sign would invalidate the parking restrictions?

 

The image of the sign is part of Manchester City Councils photographic evidence to support a PCN against me, and part of it is clearly covered by a sticker.

 

I would post the image here but I don't have sufficient posts to do that, but there is a sticker over the time period when a driver can return - the bit that says "No Return Within 2 Hours" - although someone has covered over the "2 Hours" with a sticker.

 

Thanks for any help...

[dx100uk]

**you can post up images/letters by this method immediately..you don't need 10 posts**

.

set your default scan page size to A4 less than 300DPI [150 will do]

scan the required letters/agreements/sheets - as a picture[jpg] file

don't forget you can use a mobile phone or a digital camera too!!

'

BUT......

ENSURE: remove all pers info inc. barcodes etc

but leave all monetary figures and dates.

.

************************* ************************* *******

{DO NOT USE A BIRO OR PEN OR USE SEE THRU TAPE OR LABELS]

************************* ************************* ***********

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DO IT IN MSPAINT.EXE or any photo editing program

goto one of the many free online pdf converter websites ...

http://freejpgtopdf.com/

http://www.convert-jpg-to-pdf.net/

..

if you have multiple scans/pics

put them in a word doc FIRST and convert that to PDF

or http://www.freepdfconvert.com/

or

use www.pdfmerge.com

 

convert existing PC files to PDF [office has an installable print to PDF option]

..

it would be better to upload a multipage pdf if

you have many images too rather than many single pdfs

.

or if you have PDF as an installed printer drive use that

or use word and save as pdf

or use Primo PDF.

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try and logically name your file so people know what it is.

though DONT USE BANK NAMES or CAG in the title

i'e Default notice DD-mm-yyyy

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open a new msg box here

hit go advanced below the msg box

hit manage attachments below that box

hit the add files button on the top right

hit select files, navigate to your file on your pc

hit upload files

...

YOU DONT have to put a link to the attachment in the msg box..just upload it ..job done

you can click on your links to check them too!

.

dx

[_Ray_]

Thanks for that, here's the image of the sign

Edited June 16, 2014 by _Ray_
Added text

[Jamberson]

If you can't read it, there would be a case to appeal. A lot depends on the state of the sign and the other info available at the scene. Images are needed really.

[Jamberson]

OK. Just seen it.

 

So what happened? Did you get a ticket? What was the contravention?

[_Ray_]

Well first can I say that this is not my first line of defense, I was asking in case I needed a back-up to my primary defense....

 

The offense was 'Parked for longer than permitted' but that isn't true!

 

I had moved the car, to the bay where the PCN was issued, from the adjoining street (the 2 bays are less than 50 meters apart)

so it appears to me that the enforcement officer has got his/her facts wrong

or has deliberately falsified the evidence (does that kind of thing happen?)

 

but how do I prove either?

 

I can see how it might sound as though I am just trying to wriggle out of this penalty,

but I do this every day I am at university, well within the 2 hour time limit, and have never had any problems before.

 

I have appealed the ticket by email, but

 

the city council rejected it saying their officer had noted "on their first observation the civil enforcement officer noted the positions

of the valves on your vehicle's tyres in their pocket book at 10 and 4.

This is standard procedure.

 

On their return, the valves were in the same positions.

 

This is the reason why the civil enforcement officer believed your vehicle had not left the free bay and returned to the same parking place later".

 

In my appeal I never said I'd returned to the same bay, I gave them precise details of where I had been parked and the times I'd been parked in each.

 

Any suggestions what my next step should be?

 

In the Council's letter there is no mention of further appeals,

 

just 3 options that all involving paying the fine

 

- something I don't want to do given that I didn't overstay.

 

Thanks...

[Michael Browne]

2 options:

pay the discounted penalty

wait for the NTO and make formal representation with the same grounds + the obscured sign as documented in their own photo.

 

They will reject almost certainly.

 

You then appeal to the adjudicator again on the same grounds.

 

It's possible that the council will back down at this stage since, in theory, the CEO's notes should note your car first seen in XXX street, whereas the pcn was given in YYY street round the corner.

[Jamberson]

I think the best thing to do is get on the phone to them and speak to someone about the photographic evidence they have and the CEO notes. If they are saying he noted the valve positions, then the question is, when was that first observation made. And are there any photos from that point, which would enable you to look at the ground/pavement and see that it's a different spot. And are there any other notes which might indicate where the car was.

 

Knowing what hard evidence they have will help you decide whether to re-appeal on that basis, and hopefully win out, or change to a different line of appeal.

 

So far as the sign goes, if you were ticketed for overstaying and the sign was obscured, then that's a reasonable case too. But were there any other signs next to this bay, with the info on? If so, an adjudicator might rule that the signing was sufficient. (Again, it would be good to know what sort of photos they have of the signage on the day.)

 

By the way, they will probably be happy to email you their photos - but finding out about the notes too will help clarify the best move.

[_Ray_]

Thanks for all your help it is really useful to hear from the 'experts'

 

There a 5 images of the alleged offense, but only 1 image of any signage (the one I posted a link to in the 3rd post) - are you suggesting they might have more?

 

as I said the sign is of less importance to me than the fact that they are wrong in my case - my only interest in the sign is as a back-up in case they stand their ground and won't entertain the fact that the car had been moved. I'm not sure whether it is up to me to prove my innocence or them to prove my guilt - but if it's the former, it might prove pretty difficult to do.

 

I'm going to email them and ask them for more evidence about where the first observation was made, and request any further images they may have. Thanks for all the help so far, I really appreciate it.

 

I will update when I hear back from them...

[Michael Browne]

It's unlikely they will have photos of the first observation. Standard practice on first sighting is merely to note the road, time seen, reg no. and valve positions.

 

They generally only take photos when issuing the ticket.

[Jamberson]

I have seen first observation images so there is a small chance.

 

@Ray - in terms of their photos, I was wondering really if there is a second sign there. (Do you know?) If there is, and they have a photo of it, that would weaken that particular line of appeal. If they don't, then good, especially if you know for sure that this is the only sign, and it's unclear.

 

I think you need to get all the photos and CEO notes, and let us know what's in them. It could be a lazy staff member just not bothering to look at the evidence properly - it's impossible to say. But fact-finding now will help a great deal.

[king12345]

Obscured sign in their own evidence = unenforceable restriction in any case.

[Michael Browne]

Obscured sign in their own evidence = unenforceable restriction in any case.

 

+1

[Jamberson]

Obscured sign in their own evidence = unenforceable restriction in any case.

 

Not if there's another sign there which is OK. One damaged sign among several isn't going to invalidate the whole bay. It depends what's there.

[Michael Browne]

The signage issue is only secondary, since the OP admits he knows the 2 hr no return in 2 hr restriction because he habitually parks there and always moves his car to a different street to comply. However it's worth including because it is obscured, and yet the council have included it as primary evidence of the restriction and that that the contravention occurred.

[_Ray_]

Obscured sign in their own evidence = unenforceable restriction in any case.

 

I hope you are right about this, although I'd also like to get them to realise their CEO's note taking needs some improvement as well...

[_Ray_]

@Ray - in terms of their photos, I was wondering really if there is a second sign there. (Do you know?) If there is, and they have a photo of it, that would weaken that particular line of appeal. If they don't, then good, especially if you know for sure that this is the only sign, and it's unclear.

 

Not sure if there's another sign or not, I didn't check. I've left uni now until September but I'll get someone to check for me and take some photo's...

[Michael Browne]

What's the exact location so we can look on Google Streets?

[_Ray_]

The signage issue is only secondary, since the OP admits he knows the 2 hr no return in 2 hr restriction because he habitually parks there and always moves his car to a different street to comply. However it's worth including because it is obscured, and yet the council have included it as primary evidence of the restriction and that that the contravention occurred.

 

Yeah I'm not denying I know the restrictions in these bays, but I was under the impression that if the signage doesn't meet the regulations then the parking restrictions are suspended until they do. Am I wrong on that one, assuming there isn't any other signs that is (I don't know if they is yet)?

[_Ray_]

What's the exact location so we can look on Google Streets?

 

Great idea I never thought of that

 

It's Higher Ormond Street, Manchester - I was parked exactly where the red car is, the one in front of the illegally parked blue Corsa!

Edited June 16, 2014 by _Ray_
added text

[Michael Browne]

I was under the impression that if the signage doesn't meet the regulations then the parking restrictions are suspended until they do.

 

That's the theory, but councils are more interested in making money, so happily ignore the regulations. Even when appeals succeed, plenty of councils don't bother to correct signage and just carry on issuing more pcn's

[_Ray_]

Looks like there's a second sign at the opposite end of the street from where I was parked. Don't know whether that's good or bad for me....

[Michael Browne]

http://goo.gl/maps/a2sTo

 

One other sign at the other end of he bay (8 car lengths away), but who knows whether that was obscured too ( and who cares!!)

[Jamberson]

I would say that the signage is inadequate if one of those signs is faulty.

 

Let us know what comes out of your other enquiries, but you appear to have two grounds to pursue.

[_Ray_]

Let us know what comes out of your other enquiries, but you appear to have two grounds to pursue.

 

I will and thanks again for all the help so far...