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hit by an articulated lorry in doncaster on a roundabout blame ?


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a few days ago my wife ,myself her sister and our daughter went to Doncaster ,

 

our return journey (incase anyone knows the road layout) consisted in coming down the road behind the market to the traffic light junction .

 

when the lights turned green we approached onto market roundabout into the middle lane labelled A19SELBY /A638 WAKEFIELD.

which as a spiral roundabout takes you over the bridge towards sprotborough etc in the left hand lane as you exit the roundabout onto the bridge.

 

a few seconds onto the roundabout at a speed of less than 20 mph we were hit in the drivers side rear quarter panel by an articluted lorry of at least 7.5 tonne (has a forklift truck on the back ) so could have been of a heavier weight .

 

the lorry spun the car around 90 degrees and we were fully across the front of the truck .

 

the only thing we could see from the drivers side was the full front of the vehicle .

 

we have no idea wewre the lorry come from ,it either come from over the bridge ,or come from wheatley hall road .

 

the car wasn't ours it is my brothers car on loan to us from time to time on the understanding I paid for a separate insurance policy .

(as he is a garage owner and has trade insurance so we wold not be covered)

 

I did this in march (maybe earlier) and also included him on the policy as he is the owner and registered keeper as the car is usually kept at his home address.

 

then wagon driver jumped from the cab and shouted its your fault not mine .

 

I didn't respond at all I was in shock

 

my 3 year old daughter was on the side that was hit .

 

luckily the car was an audi and seemed to take the impact well ,

 

hate to think if it had been a small car like a corsa .

 

police attended the scene made sure everyone was ok they exchange details not us and then let us go on our merry way .

 

I took pictures of the damage to the car ,

the rear quarter back door ,

 

front door and front wing are all badly damaged

 

.the rear bumper has a slight crack and the rear wheel is scuffed ,

 

im devastated and feel wholly responsible to my brother ,

 

when I phoned my insurance they stated that as my no claims was unprotected

I will lose 8 years ncb if it ends up been a 50/50 split .

 

as there unprotected policy does not consider any ncb over 5 years

I wasn't even driving my wife was and Is a named driver.

 

I have been in contact with there transport mamager who was very polite and said don't worry we will have your vehicle sorted in no time

as the have a very good insurance company ,

 

he said the drivers pride was dented and he was been ribbed by his colleagues .

 

also said if it was my car I would have throttled the guy .

 

I know we are not to blame I know we were in the correct lane on the roundabout ,

but I have no idea were the lorry came from so quickly

 

I have attached a picture of how the car ended up on the roundabout

 

me and my brother are now in the process of assessing whether it would be better for him to fix the car ,

 

in case it goes 50/50 as the car if taken to audi for assessment would be wrote off due to the cost of fixing it.

 

further upping an insurance premium next year as the car was valued on the policy quote at over 11k

 

the wagon didn't seem to suffer any damage except blue paint on it from the car

 

seems my insurance is worth nothing ,

and all ive had is personal injury specialists phoning me to claim for injuries ,

 

all of us eneded up with none ,

except it effected my sciatica ,

but I am due to see a neuro surgeon this week as I already have 2 slipped disks

 

the small picture attached is from a mobile phone taken by luck from a girl who works at the public house my sister and daughter work at in scawsby.

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You need to stay off the phone to the transport manager and anyone else from the company

 

You need to deal direct with your insurance

Fill in the paperwork they send you and state the names of the police officers who attended

 

It is for the insurance to sort out

 

You will only loose no claims on this policy but you had none anyway

Your other policy's on another vehicle will be unaffected and your no claims is still there

If i have helped in any way hit my star.

any advice given is based on experience and learnt from this site :-)

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eh ? the police told me to phone the transport manager and tell them directly about the accident . the was not 1 police man or woman who gave a name or badge number ,even though the whole of south Yorkshire police seemed to turn up .

 

 

we don't have any other car policy . we don't own another car ,that is why my brother loans us the car so my wife can go shopping etc . my brother owns a big garage with lots of trade and has done well for himself . so trying to help us out said if we paid for the insurance we could loan the car as long as he wasn't using it . As his trade policy is for himself ,his work and his own wife .

 

 

so I will loose my own ncb. I havent been able to afford an 11k car so it was more of a privelage for us to have use of it .

 

 

so please before making assumptions maybe ask for more info.

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You moved into a lane, was this the same lane the truck was in or was he in the right hand land and wanting to move into your lane ?

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so please before making assumptions maybe ask for more info.

 

Why is it you seam to think a forum will tell you you are not to blame and all is ok

 

By the sounds of it you pulled out in front of a lorry which side swiped your brothers car

 

Your insurance should deal with this and you will lose any no claims on that policy

It is there problem to sort

 

Or is it a cover up and not report it to insurance

If i have helped in any way hit my star.

any advice given is based on experience and learnt from this site :-)

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how can we have pulled out on a lorry ? traffic light controlled roundabout .as far as I am aware he was in either the right hand lane moving over to early (as its a spiral roundabout )

or he came from wheatley hall road and pulled onto the roundabout in the wrong lane assuming the lane he was in he could exit left .

 

 

I wasn't driving my wife was but after 20+ years of driving with no accidents or claims or points (except the theft of my car) you cant exactly miss a 30+ foot lorry to the right hand side of you and drive into it .

if that was the case im sure the front of the vehicle would have impacted with the lorry first , it didn't .

 

 

it has been reported to the insurance immediately ,what annoys me is my insurance said if it turns into a 50/50 claim , i.e they cant determine who did what .it will lose 8 years ncb . as they only take into account 5 years ncb . and I have 11 .

 

 

they also wanted me to pay the £350 excess on the policy before anyone would assess the damage to the vehicle .

 

 

my brother owns a garage which is vw/audi specialist , they reckon if using 2nd hand doors and wing , straightening the rear quarter ,plus minor filling paint etc they can repair the car for less than the excess . obviously theres no labour charges as its my brothers own car

 

 

therefore saving me money even if it does go 50/50 . as I wont be claiming for the car to be wrote off at a value of 11k .

 

 

just bloody annoyed that my insuance on paper isn't worth a thing in reality . and so grateful that audis are built so strong enough to be pushed sideways around a roundabout.

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I doubt you want to hear this ...but... the HGV didn't appear from nowhere - if the description of the accident is accurate then it must have been coming from the right, and traffic from the right has priority. You cant just put your foot down as soon as your lights go green and hope for the best. Frankly a 50:50 liability split sounds like a very favourable outcome given that you say your wife didn't even see the HGV. I note you say that the front of your vehicle was intact, however that could well mean the HGV driver saw the problem developing and braked.

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean about 8/5/11 years NCB. Do you mean your insurers knock 8 years off? That would presumably leave you with 3 years if you had 11 to start with. You're lucky in that a lot of insurers just wipe the whole thing off. I'm surprised they even allowed you to take out insurance on a vehicle you don't own and don't keep at your address.

 

 

The business about paying your excess before an inspection sounds really weird, I've never heard of anything like it - might be worth asking to speak to a supervisor. In any event an inspection shouldn't be required unless it's likely to be a write off and you say repairs are well under the £11K value so that's not an issue. If accident liability goes 50:50 you'll get half your excess back, so you'd have less than £175 final outlay. If the garage can do all that work for £350 that's an amazing deal.

 

 

I'm not sure what you mean about your insurance not being worth anything - it's there to cover you for more serious accidents, not to mention any damage that other people involved in accidents sustain. If I reversed into someone I could easily be looking at a £10K bill for injuries and legal costs, that's what insurance is for, not sub-excess incidents.

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ok getting a bit confused here . if say joe blogs hits freds car on the roundabout , and fred claims for the car and injuries then , joe is up $$$t creek without a paddle as fred is gonna get thousands from a whiplash claim plus the hiked up prices accident repair shops charge insurance companies for repairs to cars , alot of them sub standard

 

 

poor old joe blogs losses some ncb and gets a massive premium hike next years after paying out for whiplash/personal injuries to fred and maybe passengers. plus the repair costs for 2 vehicles .

 

 

 

 

this way if it goes either 50/50 or our way then I lose 8 years ncb which will put my premium up next year . but if the lorry isn't damaged and im sure the driver wasn,t at the time as he was out the cab like a flash . then if the car is repaired without going through the insurance ,there isn't as such a claim to be had .therefore I shouldn't lose any ncb and don't have to donate a kidney next year to pay insurance out .

 

 

no one in our car was injured and we haven,t made any personal injury claims even though we keep getting calls basically saying we can claim (in certain words for false injuries) like that headache could be whiplash , your back hurts etc .

 

 

all I and my brother are trying to do is save premium price hikes .

 

 

normally a garage wouldn't do all that work for less than the excess but having a brother who owns a garage has benefits in this case . the body shop around the corner had a look and asked what price did we want putting on the estimate for repairs ,so that we could split the profit . eh

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It's a bit difficult to say without having numbers, but lets say for example:-

 

 

a) With 11yrs NCD you pay £400 a year for insurance. After this you pay £800 next year. HGV is fine, driver is fine, only loss is £350 to you for spare doors/paintwork. You will be better off not claiming at all, just pay the £350 yourself.

 

 

b) With 11yrs NCD you pay £300 a year for insurance. Afterwards you pay £375. HGV is fine, driver is fine. Your repairs come to £350. It makes sense to make a claim, take the 50/50 and get £175 back from the TPI (third party insurers).

 

 

Do however bear in mind that from the sounds of things your insurers are allowing you to keep some of your NCD. If you change insurers the new one's will almost certainly not honour that deal. One more reason to not make a claim at all if it really is just £350 we're talking about.

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tbh its along time since I had to make a claim for car theft , I lost 2 years ncb , I thought it was still the same 2 years ncb bonus lost . car insurance was shy of £600 due to the fact we (myself and wife) didn't own the car and a presumed not as responsible for the upkeep and looking after of the car ,in other words we wouldn't care less about it cos we don't own it.

that is untrue totally I was raised by my mother to take good care of anything and everything ,especially things loaned to you as if they break you have to replace them.

 

 

the car when we borrow it is checked before we go anywhere and after just incase , my wife parks away from the kerb so you need a drawbridge to the path , just to make sure she doesn't scuff a wheel .

she is still devastated about it and keeps second guessing the whole thing . she has been on google maps going over and over it looking at the roundabout trying to work out where the lorry came from .

 

 

me im just gutted that my brothers car is damaged and il lose 8 years ncb + a premium hike if it goes 50/50 .

 

 

insurance did say that any costs of repairing the car that come out of our own pocket will be reimbursed as long as we keep receipts and it goes in our favour.

forgot to add / we could lie like a lot do and say it cost a lot more money to repair if it goes 100% our way and claim falsely , but im too honest a person to do that .I couldn't live with the guilt .

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A few firms knock 2 years off NCD, sounds like your current one takes more, many firms just send you back to square one unless you have 'NCD protection'. It's up to them basically, something to consider when you choose an insurers is how good are they when something goes wrong. Often the cheapest quote isn't always the best policy to go with.

 

 

Definitely keep receipts for everything, that's good advice. You're absolutely right to say it's not worth lying, the risks far outweigh the benefits - get caught in one lie and your whole claim unravels, not to mention future effects.

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Ok so I've got this roundabout up on google... the st mary's roundabout. In most places its 4 lanes and one places its 3... so which road did you enter from? Coming from Doncaster to the roundabout I assume it was either North Bridge Road or St George's Bridge?

 

And which lane did you go into on the roundabout? Coming from those two roads suggested the 4 lanes prior to the roundabout correspond with 4 lanes on the roundabout itself so either your vehicle or the lorry strayed from their lane but ultimately that'll be hard to prove either way without an independent witness...

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This may or may not apply but remember both your wife and lorry driver have equal responsibility to understand that large vehicles including lorries and coaches etc sometimes need to straddle lanes or require more space negotiating some junctions and hazards. Highway Code 221

 

ALSO remember passing a green traffic light does not give you carte blank. Green means "You may go on if the way is clear" Being a round about, the over riding priority is to traffic on the right

 

without knowing the full sequence of events of both parties a 50/50 sounds favorable atm

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The SabreSheep, All information is offered on good faith and based on mine and others experiences. I am not a qualified legal professional and you should always seek legal advice if you are unsure of your position.

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https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Wheatley+Hall+Rd/@53.5271244,-1.1337064,19z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x48790e14746595e5:0x474782e21f7e4063

 

This appears to be the roundabout you describe. Wheatley Hall Rd turns into Church Way before joinign this roundabout. This is the Markets Roundabout. TWO Exits are Church Way. Which enterance of the round about did you come in from?

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The SabreSheep, All information is offered on good faith and based on mine and others experiences. I am not a qualified legal professional and you should always seek legal advice if you are unsure of your position.

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hi we entered onto the a630 church way from Market Rd. (arrows are pointing east on a630 in aerial view . moved into the correct lane 3rd lane onto lead into roundabout (4 lanes) signed on the road A19 Selby A 638 wakefield . when you enter the roundabout you are in the middle lane after the first exit off the round about (which consists of 2 lanes ) ,anyway on roundabout arrow in road is pointing to the right which leads you as its a spiral roundabout into the left hand lane as you go over St George's bridge .

 

 

sounds a bit confusing but better viewed from street view.

roundabout is traffic light controlled

lorry must have been in the far right hand lane and switched to the lane we were in to early to hit us in the rear quarter and shunt the car around into the front of the cab.

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where exactly did the collision occur

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The SabreSheep, All information is offered on good faith and based on mine and others experiences. I am not a qualified legal professional and you should always seek legal advice if you are unsure of your position.

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Ok so now I'm looking at the right roundabout (what am I like! lol), I can see where you say if you're in the 3rd lane at the light's you'll follow the road markings and be in the middle lane as you approach the lights on the roundabout.

 

So as SabreSheep said, where on the roundabout did the accident happen? just by that first set of lights after you enter?

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ok look at the floor on street view in the middle lane just on the approach onto the round about is a blue vw van , turn around anti clock wise and you see a reflection of the google camera van on the floor , the collision happened around there , lucky the lorry wasn't going say 30+mph , it was just the sheer force/weight of it that I think spun the car around . we didn't get to the next set of traffic lights , we were asked/told by the police to pull the car onto the grass verge to the left hand side just past the sign for sprotborough. which we did the police exchanged details , asked if we were ok ,physically yes my wife was a bit shaken up naturally . but by the time we pulled off the grass verge, im quite sure the lorry had left the scene.

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I'm looking at the Google Earth version of the roadabout and think you entered from the entrance to the right, (with a car park to your left hand side) and wished to take the 3rd exit from the roundabout. (1st is major exit to Church Way, 2nd is minor exit to Grey Friars Rd, 3rd is major exit to St Georges Bridge which you intended to take.)

 

Your entrance had 4 lanes and you say you chose lane 3, which is ok at this point, but make a note that lane 4 is also marked as A19 and lets assume, as you can't be clear, that the lorry was in lane 4 also intending to exit to the A19 which he may also do legally. So think of it that of the 2 legal lanes heading for A19 you chose "the left of the choice" and the lorry picked the "right of the choice". Hold that thought.....

 

Moving on to the roundabout, the left lane is a forced exit into the 1st exit Church Way so, as you say your 3rd lane became the middle lane and the lorry in now in the 3rd lane. Look at the lane markings and you will see lane 2 and lane 3 are legally marked for A19, or to phrase it like I did before, you are in the "left of the choice" and the lorry is in the "right of the choice". Still both perfectly legal.

 

OK, this is where I believe you made a mistake by describing the roundabout as a “spiral roundabout”. It is not.

 

Look at the road markings just after the exit for Grey Friars Rd and you will see that the A19 markings are now in lane 1 and lane 2. Or to go back to my earlier phrasing lane 1 is “the left of the choice” and lane 2 is the “right of the choice”. You, up till now have always been selecting the “left of the choice” and therefore are required to move over from lane 2 to lane 1 and the lorry, who has always been in the “right of the choice” is required to move from lane 3 to lane 2 ready for the 2 lane exit onto St Georges Bridge. You will see if you look closely at the white lane markings just before Grey Friar Rd the white line for your lane is trying to guide you towards lane 1 (which makes the white line look like an X at that point. Upon you exit you would have been in lane 1 on the bridge and the lorry would have been in lane 2, both perfectly legal and both perfectly safe.

 

So, in my view the accident happened because just as you passed Grey Friars Rd, you failed to move from lane 2 to lane 1 and the lorry driver executed his correct procedure of moving from lane 3 to lane 2 but failed to check that the lane was clear to do so. That in my view will make it a 50/50 from an insurance point of view, but in my opinion you were wholly to blame for not understanding the correct procedure for lane execution on roundabouts.

 

As an ADI I can assure you, one of our top bugbears when teaching, is the number of people who execute wrong lane discipline on roundabouts but “get away with it” because the other vehicle they impeded takes evasive action. In this case, the driver of the 18tonner probably couldn’t even see you by then as you would have been in his blind spot and he therefore assumed you had moved over correctly to lane 1 and he move to lane 2.

 

Look at the roundabout as if you had approached it in lane 4 which is legally marked for A19 and picture the route you would have taken through the roundabout to acheive your exit to the A19 and you will find you will (or should) have taken the route I have described the lorry took which would result in a collision near Grey Friars Rd. If that is not where the collision occurred then I have misunderstood where it happened and would need to re-think it again. :)

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A little bit more evidence to support my lane descriptions on the roundabout. If you look at the lane markings approaching the roundabout from Church Way, (the first exit you passed). There are 3 lanes to approach, and lane 1 and lane 2 are marked for the A19. So if you are on the roundabout, as you pass Church Way and Grey Friars Rd you are expected to be in lane 1 or lane 2 to get to your A19 exit. If, prior to this, the lorry is in the (legal) 3rd lane marked for the A19, how do you suppose he can get to his exit if he isn't allowed to execute his lane change from 3 to 2 as he passed Church Way/Grey Friar Rd?

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...how do you suppose he can get to his exit if he isn't allowed to execute his lane change from 3 to 2 as he passed Church Way/Grey Friar Rd?

 

You've got that wrong, lane 1 is a forced left turn only, so lane 2 BECOMES lane 1, and lane 3 becomes lane 2, NO LANE CHANGES ARE NEEDED. A new lane 3 (A630 SCUN) is created by a hatched area on the right hand side of the road, adjacent to the X's.

 

I repeat, no lane changes are needed, that's why the 'X's are there, to guide you

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It would still be described as a lane change on this particular roundabout and not a true spiral roundabout, but that is by-the-by as when I try to come up with the actual impact location using the photos in post 1, it may be that the crash happened prior to this Church Way/Grey Friar Rd area anyway, meaning the lorry shouldn't have needed to move over yet.

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You've got that wrong, lane 1 is a forced left turn only, so lane 2 BECOMES lane 1, and lane 3 becomes lane 2, NO LANE CHANGES ARE NEEDED. A new lane 3 (A630 SCUN) is created by a hatched area on the right hand side of the road, adjacent to the X's.

 

I repeat, no lane changes are needed, that's why the 'X's are there, to guide you

 

Lane 2 becomes Lane 1 after the greyfriars turn off

Lane 3 Becomes Lane 2

New lane created.

 

I put it to you that the lorry that was in lane 3 moved as guided into lane 2 and your vehicle failed to move from lane 2 into lane 1 and carried on moving as if to cross into the path of the lorry probably unintentionally.

 

Therefore without further information as to where the lorry came from or where exactly the collision occurred im afraid 50/50 looks like the best outcome.

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The SabreSheep, All information is offered on good faith and based on mine and others experiences. I am not a qualified legal professional and you should always seek legal advice if you are unsure of your position.

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