Changes to PIP assessments

[dcakiller]

hope this is not true

 

http://www.ldascotland.org/index.php/welfare-reform/122-the-dwp-turns-nasty-on-personal-independence-payment-claimants

[2ltr16valve]

Says site has exceeded it's bandwidth. Have you got another link ?

[estellyn]

See, even if the DWP make 'directives' (not sure if the report is true or not), they'll end up with loads of appeals being won. There is no change in legislation, therefore once at appeal, the legislation applies and the claimant's appeal is allowed.

 

 

Seems like shooting themselves in the foot if this was true. There are already loads of precedent UT decisions on some of the issues mentioned (safely, reliably etc), and no way the a Tribunal judge will uphold decisions based on the type of assessment reported.

 

 

Plus the DWP can't recover monies paid to a claimant where the claimant had no part in the decision being wrong - so can't see how that could be true.

 

 

All this would lead to some seriously damaging PR for the DWP, and surely all this would make the assessment process longer, not shorter leading to even more delays.

[dcakiller]

very true plus I can not find this on any other site ( benefits & work, disability alliance )

[Nystagmite]

Can this be challenged? I've read through that and a lot of it is scary and would seriously affect me.

[estellyn]

Can this be challenged? I've read through that and a lot of it is scary and would seriously affect me.

 

 

Even if it were true, it wouldn't hold up to appeal, so yes, challengeable.

[Storm in a T-cup]

Wow scary stuff indeed I am currently awaiting a PiP assessment and this News if true is almost guaranteed to fail me and leave me on the Tribunal route again (Currently appealing ATOS assessment that passed me Fit to Work) PiP was my last hope of being able to have any sort of quality of Life.

 

I am now so worried after reading that post that I am actually feeling physically sick I don't know if I can survive another case going to appeal I have been told December will be the earliest my Fit for work Tribunal appeal and if PiP fails it will be next year before that gets sorted. All told I will have been waiting a total of 20+ months since the beginning of my Claim I am astounded that 21st century UK care for its disabled population has sunk so Low.Its a war of attrition and DWP is winning

[dcakiller]

Just found this directly contradicts the info in the above link information that the DWP released yesterday in their updated booklet for HCP's

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/313570/pip-assessment-guide.pdf

[worried33]

If it was deemed that a person's description of their needs caused by their disabilities, matched the medication they were prescribed and the condition with which they were diagnosed, then the assessors were able to award points for the descriptors for which that person claimed without the need for being seen face-to-face.

 

AS I said before, those without diagnosis or medical treatment get disadvantaged by the system as it seems to determine eligibility on existing treatment/support.

 

Surely this is open to legal challenge?

 

Assessors can ask if a claimant has a need for such support but claimants MUST provide evidence that they are receiving the support now.

 

No way can a person's needs be judged on if they already get that help.

 

But if all that article is true then it seems clear PIP is defenitly target driven and they must not be meeting their targets.

[worried33]

See, even if the DWP make 'directives' (not sure if the report is true or not), they'll end up with loads of appeals being won. There is no change in legislation, therefore once at appeal, the legislation applies and the claimant's appeal is allowed.

 

 

Seems like shooting themselves in the foot if this was true. There are already loads of precedent UT decisions on some of the issues mentioned (safely, reliably etc), and no way the a Tribunal judge will uphold decisions based on the type of assessment reported.

 

 

Plus the DWP can't recover monies paid to a claimant where the claimant had no part in the decision being wrong - so can't see how that could be true.

 

 

All this would lead to some seriously damaging PR for the DWP, and surely all this would make the assessment process longer, not shorter leading to even more delays.

 

Ok thanks estellyn, so the way you see it is, they may be changing the way ATOS carry out assessments on the sly but this cannot be enforced onto tribunals as its not been changed in a proper legal manner.

[Lilly_Monroe]

They have added further comments to the article - but are standing by what they wrote.

with a backlog of 145.000 (I have been waiting longer than the stated 18 weeks) so have many others, they must be looking at

ways to cut this backlog and stop it growing even bigger.

 

This part is also disturbing.

 

A further change to PIP assessments has also been implemented by the DWP. A few months ago, the DWP ran a pilot programme where DWP CALL CENTRE staff - who are not medically trained - were given 200 claimants cases to assess and act as Decision Makers on their cases.

Despite protests from both DWP staff and ATOS staff, the DWP has now decided the Pilot was a 'success' and from Tuesday this programme will be rolled out in full for all claimants. Claimants will no longer be able to guarantee that their claims will be decided by fully trained DWP decision makers.

ATOS staff wish to make it known how deeply distressed and unhappy they are at these changes.

Our source can attest that this is a true statement as it was told to them.

Our source is passing this information to you in order that action can be taken to prevent a potential humanitarian disaster from occurring for the disabled population of the UK.

 

 

The worry is who is strong enough to stop them -and does anyone care enough to stand up for the disabled, past evidence does not seem to bode good.

 

They have removed the article completely since last night.

[Unforgiven]

Hmmm the article has been removed from the website apparently because some people have been very scared by it. I personally don't think that's a legitimate reason for it's removal, if it was true, as forewarned is forearmed even if it is a scary prospect.

 

http://www.ldascotland.org/index.php/welfare-reform/122-the-dwp-turns-nasty-on-personal-independence-payment-claimants

[Nystagmite]

AS I said before, those without diagnosis or medical treatment get disadvantaged by the system as it seems to determine eligibility on existing treatment/support.

 

Yet, most of us with long term medical conditions are completely untreatable and there's a serious lack of support.

[JacobsLadder]

Yet, most of us with long term medical conditions are completely untreatable and there's a serious lack of support.

 

Please don't take this the wrong way, but are you a doctor or psychiatrist? You seem very sure that you'll never get better?

 

'Argue for your limitations and they are yours' is one of my favourite quotes. Having read your posts, I'm thinking your issues are MH as many people's here seem to be, (please correct me if I'm mistaken) Therefore, it's very defeatest to say 'I'm untreatable, I'm never going to get better'? No?

[Nystagmite]

Er, I've been told that I'm untreatable by more than one doctor.

 

Your comment was rude. And no, I don't have MH problems. I have done enough research to know that there's no cure for what I have.

[2ltr16valve]

I agree tbh. The comment was below the belt. There are many of us that have conditions that are managed but not treatable. Such as myself also. My condition will deteriorate over time. The only cure is a heart, lung and kidney transplant. Which I won't get anyways.

[JacobsLadder]

Er, I've been told that I'm untreatable by more than one doctor.

 

Your comment was rude. And no, I don't have MH problems. I have done enough research to know that there's no cure for what I have.

 

Hey sorry, chillax dude. Didn't mean to cause offence. I only found CAG today and it seems an amazing site. Sorry if I offended. My brother's got MH issues and when I looked on the Benefit thread it all seems to be about people trying to justify "why I can't do stuff, I'll never change and it's revolting you would ever ask me to try. So just show me how to get the free money and shut up!"

 

I'm sure this post will go down like a cup of cold sick, so apologies again for challenging you, but reading a lot of these threads, when it comes to MH issues, it sounds like too many people have already given up on themselves, not on the system, but on themselves, as 'incurable, untreatable'... Personally I find that really depressing.

[Unforgiven]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but are you a doctor or psychiatrist? You seem very sure that you'll never get better?

 

'Argue for your limitations and they are yours' is one of my favourite quotes. Having read your posts, I'm thinking your issues are MH as many people's here seem to be, (please correct me if I'm mistaken) Therefore, it's very defeatest to say 'I'm untreatable, I'm never going to get better'? No?

 

I can't answer for Nystagmite but from my point of view I don't think there is anything wrong with being realistic about my conditiion.

 

I have had severe Agoraphobia for the past 25+ years and for at least the first 10 years I fought very hard against it, in fact the harder I tried to overcome it, the worse it got. At the time I didn't understand about avoidance behaviour (I don't think the medical profession understood that then either) but in trying to face up to my fears it became more deeply entrenched and I became more and more afraid.

 

It's quite a complicated story about what triggered my condition but it involved PTSD (again nothing much was known about that at the time) and prescribed drugs that are now known to have many side effects including Agoraphobia.

 

With hindsight, I think I just needed to allow myself to feel as I did and give myself a break but it was still those days when you'd expect, and others would tell you, to just pull yourself together and get a grip.

 

Those years were a complete nightmare of constant panic, anxiety and bewilderment and I felt very suicidal. I got to the point where I stopped fighting as I didn't care anymore what happened to me and it's at that point things started to get a lot better for me. I don't try and overcome it any more.

 

I am still severely Agoraphobic but can live quite contentedly within its restricted parameters as mentally and psychologically I feel very much calmer (barring the ATOS assessments when I have to drag it all up over and over which triggers all the panic and anxiety again)

 

My being Agoraphobic seems to cause other people problems far more than it does me. Other people/friends/family are always trying to get me to go out and seem to have difficulty understanding my situation. I get a much better quality of life if I don't attempt to accompany them anywhere as I will spend the previous week very stressed out about it only to let them down at the last minute which makes me feel bad and causes bad feelings between us.

 

In my situation you could liken it to Nuns or Monks who never leave their 'four walls' or a maybe whole life prisoner. These people adapt to their limited parameters so why shouldn't I?

 

It's not being defeatist; it's being realistic and living with my mental disability just as someone with a physical disability might have to. It doesn't mean I live without hope of getting better, but my priority is to live as well as I can within the confines of my Agoraphobia.

[JacobsLadder]

I can't answer for Nystagmite but from my point of view I don't think there is anything wrong with being realistic about my conditiion.

 

I have had severe Agoraphobia for the past 25+ years and for at least the first 10 years I fought very hard against it, in fact the harder I tried to overcome it, the worse it got. At the time I didn't understand about avoidance behaviour (I don't think the medical profession understood that then either) but in trying to face up to my fears it became more deeply entrenched and I became more and more afraid.

 

It's quite a complicated story about what triggered my condition but it involved PTSD (again nothing much was known about that at the time) and prescribed drugs that are now known to have many side effects including Agoraphobia.

 

With hindsight, I think I just needed to allow myself to feel as I did and give myself a break but it was still those days when you'd expect, and others would tell you, to just pull yourself together and get a grip.

 

Those years were a complete nightmare of constant panic, anxiety and bewilderment and I felt very suicidal. I got to the point where I stopped fighting as I didn't care anymore what happened to me and it's at that point things started to get a lot better for me. I don't try and overcome it any more.

 

I am still severely Agoraphobic but can live quite contentedly within its restricted parameters as mentally and psychologically I feel very much calmer (barring the ATOS assessments when I have to drag it all up over and over which triggers all the panic and anxiety again)

 

My being Agoraphobic seems to cause other people problems far more than it does me. Other people/friends/family are always trying to get me to go out and seem to have difficulty understanding my situation. I get a much better quality of life if I don't attempt to accompany them anywhere as I will spend the previous week very stressed out about it only to let them down at the last minute which makes me feel bad and causes bad feelings between us.

 

In my situation you could liken it to Nuns or Monks who never leave their 'four walls' or a maybe whole life prisoner. These people adapt to their limited parameters so why shouldn't I?

 

It's not being defeatist; it's being realistic and living with my mental disability just as someone with a physical disability might have to. It doesn't mean I live without hope of getting better, but my priority is to live as well as I can within the confines of my Agoraphobia.

 

Respect.

I'm guessing you must be ex-military, same as me.

Only thing I'd say is check out 'aversion therapy'.

Face your fears.

Or accept you are defeated and live a half-life like a slave.

Please believe me I'm saying this to help, and if I'm not helping I promise you I won't post on this threat again.

[Unforgiven]

Respect.

I'm guessing you must be ex-military, same as me.

Only thing I'd say is check out 'aversion therapy'.

Face your fears.

Or accept you are defeated and live a half-life like a slave.

Please believe me I'm saying this to help, and if I'm not helping I promise you I won't post on this threat again.

 

Well, there you go. I repeat it does not cause me a problem rather it causes other people a problem.

 

I don't quite see why I should consider myself defeated. Why should it be a negative just because I've living a different lifestyle to you?

It's certainly not a half-life like a slave.

 

"A rich man is not the one who has the most but the one who needs the least"

 

I appreciate that you're trying to help but truly I'm quite happy as I am. I don't feel in anyway confined just because I don't live a mainstream life. In fact I would say, that to me, it's mostly those living a mainstream life that appear to be living a half-life like a slave.

[JacobsLadder]

 

I don't quite see why I should consider myself defeated. Why should it be a negative just because I've living a different lifestyle to you?

... it's mostly those living a mainstream life that appear to be living a half-life like a slave.

 

Well hell, I don't know??? Maybe because those in mainstream life don't need tax-payers money to validate their choices? Ho-hum, guess I'll need to bow out disgracefully now

[Unforgiven]

I did not choose to be Agoraphobic, but I do choose to live as well as I can within those parameters.

[**Margaret**]

::

 

Please, which for this thread is possible changes, as yet unverified, to the assessment criteria for an award of a personal independence payment.

 

CAG's a forum for consumer issues. We don't offer advice or assumptions about medical conditions, physical or psychiatric, cos we've no way to check the expertise or qualifications of our contributors.

 

Thank you for your co-operation, Margaret.

[worried33]

Yet, most of us with long term medical conditions are completely untreatable and there's a serious lack of support.

 

I am not talking about been treatable or not, but rather getting any diagnosis/treatment in the first place.

 

Some people have a problem getting GPs to focus on their problems as all too often GPs are too overwhelmed, have NHS budget issues etc. and some people even have a hard time seeing on GP continuously due to locums. These sort of people are unlikely to have existing support in place, proper medication, might not even have a diaignosis and the DWP shouldn't be assuming these people are not legitametly in need.

[morgandlin]

Just to clarify that it has been established that this report was wrong/hoax, and information in it was incorrect.

 

The only changes to PIP are in the official release, on a May 27th, which merely confirms that there are to be more 'paper assessments' and less face-to-face ones (assuming a lot of claimant supplied evidence), of physical and proven conditions that will not improve, given current medical treatments (those such as MS type thing)

 

This is to try and clear some of the backlog, as the original plan to start mass DLA-PIP migrations from October 2015, now looks unlikely to happen that quickly.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/315970/pip-assessment-guide-mw-020614.pd

 

Lin