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Wil Vs. the world! (or Halifax at least....best to start small!)


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Due to advice after i posted in another thread, here is my own!

 

After reading in newspapers etc, and coming onto this site, I requested my statements (for all those having issues with this, I just requested them in a conversation with a phone banking man, and was only charged £5 for 4yrs worth! unfortunately the details of the charges are sparce, just date and amount) I have realised Halifax Plc owes me £2994. After sending the preliminary letter, I received a standard response from my branch, and then at the zero hour (day 14) i received an offer of 1200 as a 'goodwill' gesture (Expensive 'goodwill'. considering the charges are 'legal and justified' *ahem*) The 14 days has now elapsed, and, following advice on another thread (cheers aardvark...) I am going to amend the LBA with a rejection/partial payment acceptance paragraph, and send this off ASAP. Will keep you posted!

 

Quick question for someone about 'contractual interest'. Is this the interest I have been charged by the bank on any amount over my O/D limit (I understand that I can only claim the interest pertaining to the charges themselves). I didn't calculate this, due to the complexity, and I understood I could claim 8% once I got to the moneyclaim stage, and thought I would wait for this. Is it too late to claim contractual interest? and would it really be worth it, if I am right in th8inking I can claim 8% once i have registered a claim?

 

Many thnks for any help, I will post my ammended letter on this thread for any criticisms etc before sending it, and keep one and all posted about any progress!!

 

Cheers. Wil.

BANK: Halifax

CHARGES: 2994

CONTRACTUAL INTEREST: (29.8%)

PRELIM SENT: 4/10/06

ACKNOWLEDGED: 18/10/06

PULTERY OFFER RECEIVED: 26/10/06

NEW & IMPROVED PRELIM SENT: 7/11/06

FINAL LBA : 17/11/06

N1 SUBMITTED: 18/12/06 (deemed served 20/12)

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I didn't claim the interest already charged to my accounts (based on default/penalty charges applied) either, as to be honest my brain tried to escape when I attempted to work it out!

 

You are correct, the 8% interest is only applied after you lodge a claim at court (it's allowed under the County Courts Act).

 

Contractual interest is used INSTEAD of the 8%, if you argue that under mutuality of contract conditions (do unto them, as they have....) you should be entitle to EARN interest at the same rate as they apply to your borrowing, for ALL funds that they have taken in relation to disputed charges.

 

As it is not a standard provision inder the CCA, you do not have to wait to file at court to claim this, and in fact it becomes part of your claim. Therefore also part of your schedule's etc and requests for repayment which should be identified from the onset of your complaint (i.e. prelim letter).

 

Yes, it makes a huge differrence to the claim as you would be adding a daily compounded interest rate equivalent to their unauthorised borrowing rate (if it's unlawful then it must be unauthorised) of some 29.9%.

 

You must however understand the argument and principles involved as it is not thouroughly tested and likely to receive additional attention from them (i.e. not giving up as soon as cases are filed at court and so having to submit AQ's etc. and being pushed much harder into giving up).

 

If you were to chose this route you could either resend a prelim letter to adapt the claim allowing a further 14 days before LBA, or just include it in your LBA. There are some who have done this but they're mostly ongoing still.

 

You should be aware that their are no real template letters for this, but plenty of threads where people post ideas and letters.

 

The other factor to consider is that it may well push your claim over the £5000 small claims track marker.

 

Try using the spreadsheet that Mindzai provides a link to in her signature here, and see what it does to the numbers.

 

Good luck!

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Thanks for that.

 

Been trying to read on other's threads about the compound interest, and think I understand it. Am i right in thinking it works on a kind of 'tit for tat' basis? I.e that they charge me that for unauthorised borrowing of money, so I can charge them the same for unauthorised 'borrowing' from my account? What I am not too sure about is the court side of claiming. If I go through moneyclaim, i can claim up to 5,000. If, because i claim the higher interest, the bank decides to challenge and defend, can this still all be done via the internet court, or will this push it to county court, where I am then called upon to respond, in person in a court?

Apologies if these are dumb questions, but I am not usually an assertive consumer, and have never considered taking anyone to court before! And although I am prepared to learn and defend myself, I have no experience and very little knowledge of the laws pertaining to this. Above all, I want my money back, but don't want to get in over my depth and ruin my chances of getting anything.

 

As soon as i feel confident enough, i will send the LBA, with provisions to decline their half (arsed) offer, and add in the compound interest. After posting it here for proofreading!!

 

Thanks to anyone who reads this, and especially to those who advise, any help much appreciated. keep up the good work dudes!

 

Wil.

BANK: Halifax

CHARGES: 2994

CONTRACTUAL INTEREST: (29.8%)

PRELIM SENT: 4/10/06

ACKNOWLEDGED: 18/10/06

PULTERY OFFER RECEIVED: 26/10/06

NEW & IMPROVED PRELIM SENT: 7/11/06

FINAL LBA : 17/11/06

N1 SUBMITTED: 18/12/06 (deemed served 20/12)

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In answer to the first part of your post, yes, it is a bit like 'tit for tat'...

 

What I am not too sure about is the court side of claiming. If I go through moneyclaim, i can claim up to 5,000. If, because i claim the higher interest, the bank decides to challenge and defend, can this still all be done via the internet court, or will this push it to county court, where I am then called upon to respond, in person in a court?

 

MCOL (Money Claim On Line) allows you to file a case into the courts system without having to go to a court or to faf araound sending letters and N1 forms by post to a court.

It allows you to see the progress of your case on-line and perform basic functions e.g. apply for judgement if the other party does not acknowledge in the required 14 days.

All cases filed on MCOL or via an N1 form given/posted in to your local court are then issued to the defendants who have set time frames in which to declare whether or not they disagree with the case brought against them, and if they intend to defend against them.

 

If a defendant (bank) says they will defend, AND the actually provides a defense to the court, you are sent an Allocation Questionaire (AQ).

Now this basically does what it says on the tin, it's a questionaire that is designed to allow a judge to allocate time and resources to any hearings.

 

ONLY AT THIS POINT are any claims then awarded either small claims, multi or fast track. None of these options provides you with an on-line court case though. If a bank defends it doesn't matter how much, what track, N1 or MCOL...... you will be seeing the in a courtroom.

 

Of course that's not actually happenning at the moment as they are not going all the way to a court hearing, they are simply abusing the court system to place pressure on claiments in the hope that most will either go away or settle for a pittance of an offer out of fear of having to go to a court. IMO

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Cheers for the info and clearing a few things up!

 

Have been researching contractual rates, and through reading other people's threads, am fired up for claiming that i reckon! Just so long as it doesn't take me too far over the magic 5,000 figure!

 

Once again, apologes for my ignorance, but in the spreadsheet mindzai provides, do you have to enter the interest charged, or can i just concentrate on the left hand side of the daily calculated interest tab?

BANK: Halifax

CHARGES: 2994

CONTRACTUAL INTEREST: (29.8%)

PRELIM SENT: 4/10/06

ACKNOWLEDGED: 18/10/06

PULTERY OFFER RECEIVED: 26/10/06

NEW & IMPROVED PRELIM SENT: 7/11/06

FINAL LBA : 17/11/06

N1 SUBMITTED: 18/12/06 (deemed served 20/12)

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Sorry, another quickie, thats probably answered else where, but can i add charges to my LBA schedule, which have been removed since the prelim? or would this require another prelim/claim?

BANK: Halifax

CHARGES: 2994

CONTRACTUAL INTEREST: (29.8%)

PRELIM SENT: 4/10/06

ACKNOWLEDGED: 18/10/06

PULTERY OFFER RECEIVED: 26/10/06

NEW & IMPROVED PRELIM SENT: 7/11/06

FINAL LBA : 17/11/06

N1 SUBMITTED: 18/12/06 (deemed served 20/12)

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Ok, have just revised the LBA, accounting for the refusal of offer, and the contractual interest. Since I have revised my claim to include interest, I have reworded the letter, conbining sme of the prelim stuff, and giving another 14 days.

Any criticism much appreciated.

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

I am writing in Response to your settlement offer, dated 26/10/2006. I am disappointed with this, being a little under half of the amount your institution has removed form my account over the duration of my banking with you. I would only accept this offer as a part payment, and therefore will not be signing the acceptance form, and will be continuing the claim for my money.

 

I now understand that the regime of 'fees' which you have been applying to my account in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent Consumer regulations.

 

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary.

 

My calculations show that you have taken £2994 plus £996.02 which is interest taken at the compounded contractual rate you apply for unauthorised borrowing (29.8%EAR). Total £3990.02. I feel this rate is justified under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity.

 

Please find enclosed a copy of the schedule of the charges which I am claiming. I have already sent you a copy of this, without this interest included, in my original letter of the 4/10/2006.

 

 

I require repayment in full of this money. Due to the revision of my calculations since my previous letter, I shall give you a further 14 days to respond.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

 

 

Whadya reckon?

BANK: Halifax

CHARGES: 2994

CONTRACTUAL INTEREST: (29.8%)

PRELIM SENT: 4/10/06

ACKNOWLEDGED: 18/10/06

PULTERY OFFER RECEIVED: 26/10/06

NEW & IMPROVED PRELIM SENT: 7/11/06

FINAL LBA : 17/11/06

N1 SUBMITTED: 18/12/06 (deemed served 20/12)

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Personally if you have already sent an LBA, only give them another 7 days to reconsider, 14 days is very generous, you MAY have your money back by christmas if you keep to 7 days...."may" not "will" ;)

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Cheers Olliebear,

 

I've not sent the LBA yet, just the prelim. About two days before the deadline they sent me the standard response, and then the day of the deadline, an offer of just under half (as full and unconditional settlement blahblahblah....) and then I found out about the contractual interest thing......

 

I had seen on another thread someone saying about a similar a

situation, that as the offer has been ammended, a new prelim should be sent...?

BANK: Halifax

CHARGES: 2994

CONTRACTUAL INTEREST: (29.8%)

PRELIM SENT: 4/10/06

ACKNOWLEDGED: 18/10/06

PULTERY OFFER RECEIVED: 26/10/06

NEW & IMPROVED PRELIM SENT: 7/11/06

FINAL LBA : 17/11/06

N1 SUBMITTED: 18/12/06 (deemed served 20/12)

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Having re-read some other threads, I think I'm gonna send this letter to them on Monday, giving 7 days until the LBA. unless anyone has significant reservations about this?

BANK: Halifax

CHARGES: 2994

CONTRACTUAL INTEREST: (29.8%)

PRELIM SENT: 4/10/06

ACKNOWLEDGED: 18/10/06

PULTERY OFFER RECEIVED: 26/10/06

NEW & IMPROVED PRELIM SENT: 7/11/06

FINAL LBA : 17/11/06

N1 SUBMITTED: 18/12/06 (deemed served 20/12)

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Hi wil,

been offline for a couple of days, sorry I missed your questions.

 

in the spreadsheet mindzai provides, do you have to enter the interest charged, or can i just concentrate on the left hand side of the daily calculated interest tab?

 

Yes thats fine, I'm doing that too.

 

I think I'm gonna send this letter to them on Monday, giving 7 days until the LBA. unless anyone has significant reservations about this?

 

Sounds spot on to me Wil.

 

Go get 'em!

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Well, posted the new & improved prelim, with the contractual rate of interest, along with Vamp's spreadsheet, today. Since it was just a refusal of offer, and revision of prelim, I gave them 7 days to respond. now, we wait!

 

roll on 15th i guess!

 

cheers for advice aardvark...good luck with urs too.

BANK: Halifax

CHARGES: 2994

CONTRACTUAL INTEREST: (29.8%)

PRELIM SENT: 4/10/06

ACKNOWLEDGED: 18/10/06

PULTERY OFFER RECEIVED: 26/10/06

NEW & IMPROVED PRELIM SENT: 7/11/06

FINAL LBA : 17/11/06

N1 SUBMITTED: 18/12/06 (deemed served 20/12)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, received a standrad reply yesterday, saying they will be making no further offer etc etc. Seen it a thousand times on other people's forums, so i'll be following with LBA today!! Gonna leave it as is I think, was tempted to cut the deadline short to 7 days, as i alredy gave them 7 extra with the last letter. Decided against this, as i don't want any excuse or arguement that I've done something wrong. Here we go!!

BANK: Halifax

CHARGES: 2994

CONTRACTUAL INTEREST: (29.8%)

PRELIM SENT: 4/10/06

ACKNOWLEDGED: 18/10/06

PULTERY OFFER RECEIVED: 26/10/06

NEW & IMPROVED PRELIM SENT: 7/11/06

FINAL LBA : 17/11/06

N1 SUBMITTED: 18/12/06 (deemed served 20/12)

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello everyone!

 

Been away on holiday and busy with life recently, so have been a little lax and not quite stuck to my timetable, hoping this won't affect my chances. Been reading mindzai's claim, and it seems the bank are trying to stall until they and the OFT can agree that the charges are legal. Anyone else having this problem, or is it because of the size of their claim? Mine is slightly more than theirs, and I'm also asking for contractual interest (29.8%), and wondering whether this could be greedy, and the reason for the delay in setlement.

 

Has anyone been paid their contractual interest? tried looking on the successes thread, and can't see anyone. Are they actually defending these cclaims?

 

Also trying to write the particulars of claim, and wondering about copying Mindzai's idea of giving the court the option of 29.8% or 8%. Anyone got any thoughts on this? Just nervous that something small i do here could cause me to lose the claim.

 

thanks in advance for replies!

 

Wil

BANK: Halifax

CHARGES: 2994

CONTRACTUAL INTEREST: (29.8%)

PRELIM SENT: 4/10/06

ACKNOWLEDGED: 18/10/06

PULTERY OFFER RECEIVED: 26/10/06

NEW & IMPROVED PRELIM SENT: 7/11/06

FINAL LBA : 17/11/06

N1 SUBMITTED: 18/12/06 (deemed served 20/12)

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Been reading other threads, trying to get my head around the PoC. Think I'm there now, but in one thread here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclaycard/22690-contractual-interest-11.html?highlight=contractual+interest%3F

A paragraph is used aout the OFT ruling on CC charges. They further released a statement saying they were going to look at current accounts. can anyone think of a way to word this for a current account, or is it better to leave it out?

BANK: Halifax

CHARGES: 2994

CONTRACTUAL INTEREST: (29.8%)

PRELIM SENT: 4/10/06

ACKNOWLEDGED: 18/10/06

PULTERY OFFER RECEIVED: 26/10/06

NEW & IMPROVED PRELIM SENT: 7/11/06

FINAL LBA : 17/11/06

N1 SUBMITTED: 18/12/06 (deemed served 20/12)

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**EDITED**

 

Hey all, have edited this as have substantially changed particulars, so here's the new one. unless anyone can see any major omissions/mistakes, i reckon i'm ready to take it along to court.

 

 

1. The Claimant has an account XXXXX, bank sort code XX-XX-XX, ("the Account") with the Defendant, governed by the Defendant’s personal banking Terms and Conditions (“the Contract”) which was opened in 2002.

2. During the period in which the Account has been operating the Defendant debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant.

3. A list of the charges applied has previously been provided to the Defendant, and is also attached to these particulars of claim.

4. The Defendant has declined written requests for information regarding any manual intervention necessitated by, and/or any administrative costs incurred as a result of said breaches.

5. The Claimant will rely on a report from the Competition Commission entitled “Northern Irish Personal Banking”, published 20/10/2006, as evidence that the Defendant is aware that the income derived from these default charges is calculated to obtain material profits, and is not merely a means of recouping losses in relation to account defaults.

6. The Claimant will further rely on the statement from the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) concerning default charges in credit card contracts, published 5/4/2006, to demonstrate that:

a) The OFT’s recommendations regarding standard default terms in credit card contracts have wider implications, as regards bank current account agreements.

b) In a consumer contract, where parties are not of equal bargaining power, any estimate that included costs which could not be claimed legitimately as damages from an individual consumer in a case brought at common law, and which made a material difference to the overall charge, is likely to constitute a penalty at law.

c) The interest ordinarily charged on an overdrawn balance would of itself be deemed sufficient compensation to the Defendant in a claim for damages arising from account breaches of the said nature.

7. Accordingly, the Claimant contends that the Defendant’s default charges debited to the Account, as outlined in the attached schedule are:

a) A penalty and therefore unenforceable as they are an unreasonable pre-estimate of the loss to the Defendant; exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant; and are not intended to represent, or related to, any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit, and they are therefore contrary to common law – Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co. Ltd v New Garage and Motor Co. Ltd, 1915 AC 79.

b) Invalid under S.4 Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977, and the contractual provision that permits the defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999, paragraph 8 and schedule 2(1)(e).

c) In the event the court finds the charges are not a penalty, then they are unreasonable within the meaning of S.15 Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982.

8. Accordingly the Claimant claims:

a) The return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £XXXX;

b) Court costs;

c) The Claimant further claims contractual interest at an annual rate of 29.8%, compounded daily, from the date of each transaction to 15 December 2006, which is £X,XXX, as set out in the attached list of charges. The Claimant further claims interest, compounded, at the same rate up to the date of judgement or earlier payment.

9. The account’s Terms and Conditions specify the interest payable on unauthorised drawings from the account. The Claimant holds that this applies to unauthorised drawings by the Defendant as well as to unauthorised drawings by the Claimant. Should the court deem this incorrect, the Claimant claims the rate to be justified under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity, and is based on the Defendant’s unauthorised overdraft interest rate that would be applied under the terms of the above mentioned account.

Should the court find that this interest rate is not applicable, then in the alternative the Claimant claims interest under Section 69 of the County Court Act 1984 at the rate of 8% per annum calculated from 31/07/2002 to 15/12/2006, which is £XXX and continuing until payment or the date of judgement at a daily rate of £0.XX.

 

I believe that the contents of these particulars of claim are true.

 

 

 

Muchos thanks and clicky what-nots to bong and mindzai for posting their PoC so i could plagiarise them shamelessly!!

BANK: Halifax

CHARGES: 2994

CONTRACTUAL INTEREST: (29.8%)

PRELIM SENT: 4/10/06

ACKNOWLEDGED: 18/10/06

PULTERY OFFER RECEIVED: 26/10/06

NEW & IMPROVED PRELIM SENT: 7/11/06

FINAL LBA : 17/11/06

N1 SUBMITTED: 18/12/06 (deemed served 20/12)

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Wadaya reckon?

 

any opinions/criticism greatly recieved!!

BANK: Halifax

CHARGES: 2994

CONTRACTUAL INTEREST: (29.8%)

PRELIM SENT: 4/10/06

ACKNOWLEDGED: 18/10/06

PULTERY OFFER RECEIVED: 26/10/06

NEW & IMPROVED PRELIM SENT: 7/11/06

FINAL LBA : 17/11/06

N1 SUBMITTED: 18/12/06 (deemed served 20/12)

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at the moment the only thing that springs to mind is that you have only claimed unauthorised overdraft rate or sec 69 interest. Was that an informed decision not to put in a third alternative for the authorised o/d rate?

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no it wasn't!!

 

cheers for that, will draft up a paragraph now!!

 

keep on rockin'

BANK: Halifax

CHARGES: 2994

CONTRACTUAL INTEREST: (29.8%)

PRELIM SENT: 4/10/06

ACKNOWLEDGED: 18/10/06

PULTERY OFFER RECEIVED: 26/10/06

NEW & IMPROVED PRELIM SENT: 7/11/06

FINAL LBA : 17/11/06

N1 SUBMITTED: 18/12/06 (deemed served 20/12)

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2. During the period in which the Account has been operating the Defendant debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant.

 

also not sure if you need the bit in blue above since you are not claiming back the interest charged on the charges.

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Ok...have removed the offending phrase (good job someone here can see!!) and added in the auth. rate paragraph, worded identically to the unauth para., and slotted it in as 9 a), moving the sec. 69 paragraph to 9 b).....

 

Reckon thats it really, wanna be sure i've got it right, from the outset, but keen to get the N1 in!!

 

Thankyou Bong!!:)

BANK: Halifax

CHARGES: 2994

CONTRACTUAL INTEREST: (29.8%)

PRELIM SENT: 4/10/06

ACKNOWLEDGED: 18/10/06

PULTERY OFFER RECEIVED: 26/10/06

NEW & IMPROVED PRELIM SENT: 7/11/06

FINAL LBA : 17/11/06

N1 SUBMITTED: 18/12/06 (deemed served 20/12)

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can you post up the amended section with the authorised rate - not sure it should have identical wording and want to see if it reads ok.

 

also have you got your new spreadsheet ready for the authorised rate?

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Sure.....

 

c) The Claimant further claims contractual interest at an annual rate of 29.8%, compounded daily, from the date of each transaction to 15 December 2006, which is £1,111.84, as set out in the attached list of charges. The Claimant further claims interest, compounded, at the same rate up to the date of judgement or earlier payment.

 

9. The account’s Terms and Conditions specify the interest payable on unauthorised drawings from the account. The Claimant holds that this applies to unauthorised drawings by the Defendant as well as to unauthorised drawings by the Claimant. Should the court deem this incorrect, the Claimant claims the rate to be justified under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity, and is based on the Defendant’s unauthorised overdraft interest rate that would be applied under the terms of the above mentioned account.

 

a) Should the court find that this interest rate is not applicable, then in the alternative the Claimant claims interest at an annual rate of 18.9%, compounded daily from the date of each transaction to 15 December 2006, which is £674.90, as set out in the attached list of charges. The claimant further claims interest, compounded at the same rate up until the day of judgement or earlier payment. This rate is based upon the Defendants own Authorised Borrowing rate.

 

b) Should the court find that this interest rate is not applicable, then in the alternative the Claimant claims interest under Section 69 of the County Court Act 1984 at the rate of 8% per annum calculated from 31/07/2002 to 15/12/2006, which is £267.19 and continuing until payment or the date of judgement at a daily rate of £0.66.

 

I believe that the contents of these particulars of claim are true.

 

 

 

Was also thinking of adding a new paragraPH 7. to the effect of:

 

The Claimant will also be relying on a statement from Walter Merricks, chief ombudsman, in Ombudsman News 57, October/November 2006, to show that, pertaining to certain charges, the law on contract variations and penalties demands a reasonable relation between cost and price, and requires those who seek to justify the price to produce evidence of their actual costs.

 

Not sure of exact wording though??

 

I changed the interest rate in Mindzai's spreaddie to the Auth rate to get my figure from para. 9 a), will need to print 3 copies of each schedule, 8%, authorised, and unauthorised rate though won't I? Will just labelling them as such on top of each be sufficient, or do you think i should refer in PoC to defined appendicies??

 

Cheers so much for taking time to help!

BANK: Halifax

CHARGES: 2994

CONTRACTUAL INTEREST: (29.8%)

PRELIM SENT: 4/10/06

ACKNOWLEDGED: 18/10/06

PULTERY OFFER RECEIVED: 26/10/06

NEW & IMPROVED PRELIM SENT: 7/11/06

FINAL LBA : 17/11/06

N1 SUBMITTED: 18/12/06 (deemed served 20/12)

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