Marston Bailiffs removed car illegally, now they're pursuing me again even though they have my car!!! Help please!!!?

[nikkikitch]

Hi

 

i had Marstons banging on the door this morning at 8.30am saying they were removing my car.

They put a clamp on it and said a removal van would be there in half an hour.

They then left and came back 30 minutes later.

 

Its for an old council tax bill of £217 for which they want to remove my vehicle which is worth around £2,500 retail or £1500 trade,

is this not classed as excess!?

 

He's been sat outside for two hours now and has told me he will charge me £60 per hour to wait for the tow truck.

 

I haven't signed anything so from what i can gather, he cant charge me anything other than the legal bailiff fees?

 

I cant afford to pay now,

i have no money coming in unfortunately and am in receipt of housing and council tax benefit.

My only other income right now is working tax and child credits.

 

I have of course offered to make a payment arrangement which he of course rejected!

I have phoned the council but they have refused to do anything and said i have to deal with the bailiff.

 

On the removal letter it says they'll also charge me £15 per day for storage.

 

This is insane for a £217 bill!

 

Any help appreciated?

[citizenB]

I will send out some S.O.S. for you, someone will be along as soon as they can.

[unclebulgaria67]

When did the bailiff make the levy ? I don't think they can make the levy on a vehicle and take it away on the same day. They need to allow you time to arrange payment. If you are on benefits, you may be able to make some form of arrangement with the council concerned.

 

If you find a phone number for a local councillor, they may be willing to intervene on your behalf and put a hold on matters while this is sorted out.

[nikkikitch]

So the situation escalated. He very sneakily brought a female police officer to the door and because at no point up until then had he tried to come in, i stupidly opened the door and of course he barged in!

 

He then told me my car still had finance on it so he couldnt take it, which it hasnt so i had to then confirm that it hasnt, the finance company faxed confirmation to his office. He then said the car would be sufficient. Then he asked me to sign the forms and i refused so he gathered all of my goods, my work laptop and my sons laptop, tv, hoover, my sons x box ,books, games, my mobile phone which i use for work, etc etc and said he would take the whole lot AND my car. He then put all of my belongings on the drive whilst he waited for a removal van. This has taken 5 hours! And hes charging me waiting time.

 

THEN he decides he's only going to take my vehicle after being on my property for 5 hours. I dont think he could get a removal van for another good while and couldn't be bothered waiting. So ive suffered through the upset and embarrassment of having all my possessions removed and left on the drive all morning for no reason and they kindly let me take them all back in to the house too!

 

He told me the reason for his sudden decision was that he'd spoken to the director of the council who had told him the car was enough. Funny that given we'd both spoken to the council about an hour before and they told me he was perfectly legal in doing what he was doing.

 

So now i need to get my car back but with all the charges, van, removal and storage, the final bill would be around £700 which i just havent got!

 

He also kept saying i wasnt willing to pay, which i was, i offered to pay next week and of course he wouldnt accept that.

I also offered to pay the council, but they said i have to deal with him directly.

 

How can our local governments expect people to get out of hardship by applying these ridiculous tactics to recover council tax!? Its disgusting!

[nikkikitch]

Just to add, i asked to see a copy of the liability and court order and he said he didnt have it but the council would have copies. At no point have i received any notification that they would attempt to take my car. He said he didnt have to notify me of that. He said he hand delivered a letter though but he said it didnt say they would be removing the car!

[unclebulgaria67]

I have asked someone more informed to look at this, as the bailiff does appear to have acted wrongly and you could well have legitimate grounds for complaint with both the bailiff company and council.

 

Can you please provide a little more history about this council tax debt and can you obtain the information I requested in an earlier post. You need to start gathering information, if you want to take this matter forward.

[tomtubby]

I do not like what I have read in your post and it is very worrying indeed not least because it is very rare for a bailiff to remove a vehicle for unpaid council tax.

 

Have you spoken to the council?

 

Did you receive a copy of the 14 day warning letter from the council?

 

Have you had confirmation from the council of the precise amount of the Liability Order?

 

When was this matter first brough to your attention?

[nikkikitch]

speak to someone at the Council and ask the following questions:

1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you- 1

2 - the dates they were obtained- January 2013

3 - the addresses they were for- my previous address

4 - the period of time each covers (not sure)

5 - how much each one was for- £217 outstanding

6 - how much is still outstanding as above

7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement- March 2013

8 - the dates & amounts of any payments.

 

From the bailiffs, I would ask to see a copy of the levy and details of previous visits they have made in regard to this council tax.

 

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee. 22nd March (i didnt catch the other date i gave but i have requested all of this info from his company)

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

 

Try to avoid the bailiff coming into your home, as that will lead to more fees to be charged.

 

In regard to your car.

 

1) Is this used for business ?- Im self employed so use it for work yes

2) Any issues of vulnerability that mean you need the use of a car - I need it to take my son to school if that counts!

3) Any outstanding finance on the car ?

- No

 

Just to add, my car is currently offf the road with no tax or MOT as it needs some repairs which i havent had the money to complete. The bailiff argued well in that case, i couldnt need it for work or to drive my son!

[nikkikitch]

Sorry, just realised its not clear i have answered your questions within your question!

[unclebulgaria67]

Anyone suggest the next step that the OP should follow ? Taking a car valued at least £1500 for a £217 council tax debt and dubious fees.

[josephbloggs]

A vehicle when sold at auction will typically sell for approx 25% of the average resale value

Even less if sold without keys logbook mot tax etc

Going off a previous post it was said about a work laptop so im assuming the op is either working or self employed, so i guess there isnt a vulnerbility issue

It doesnt get to the stage of removal without having the initial 1st and 2nd visits as well so there will be pre enforcement letters

 

I would not class this removal as excessive, unfair maybe and of course not nice for anybody to have to go through, but not excessive.

 

I think the only way to get the car back at this stage would be to pay marstons.

[unclebulgaria67]

A vehicle when sold at auction will typically sell for approx 25% of the average resale value

Even less if sold without keys logbook mot tax etc

Going off a previous post it was said about a work laptop so im assuming the op is either working or self employed, so i guess there isnt a vulnerbility issue

It doesnt get to the stage of removal without having the initial 1st and 2nd visits as well so there will be pre enforcement letters

 

I would not class this removal as excessive, unfair maybe and of course not nice for anybody to have to go through, but not excessive.

 

I think the only way to get the car back at this stage would be to pay marstons.

 

I think there is a case that the bailffs actions have led to excessive fees being charged. If the bailiff and council were made aware that nikkikitch did not have the means to pay the £217 but would do so a week later, then charging £700+ to collect the tax is excessive.

 

I am sure I have seen previous complaints where the bailiffs have been made to refund charges in these situations.

 

 

nikkikitch, I would suggest that you ask the bailiff for documentation to confirm all of their actions to date and what they are charging for. Armed with the information, I would suggest a complaint to the bailiff and also a formal complaint to the council.

[brassnecked]

Do as UB suggests, send in the Formal Complaint, copy it to CEO, Elected leader and your MP with the annotation that you are disappointed with the councils heavy handed attitude when you had engaged fully, and made a firm offer of payment, which was ignored, and they sent in bailiffs to increase the debt.

[outlawla]

If it is for a Council Tax Liability Order I don't think the bailiff can charge diddly squat for "Waiting Time" as it is not laid down in the regulations.

 

I agree!

 

The council involved should take legal advice concerning the £60 per hour it allows Marstons to charge as waiting time, especially if its bailiff contractor has influenced its decision to allow this fee.

 

If regarded as a separate charge, (as already stated) there is no provision for this in schedule 5 to the Council Tax regulations 1992 and would therefore be unlawful. Alternatively, if by sleight of hand, the cost is incorporated in Head C of schedule 5, the "waiting" element relates solely to a bailiff's hourly rate which at £60 is not reasonable and therefore equally unlawful.

 

Definition of schedule 5 Head C

"

© For one attendance with a vehicle with a view to the removal of goods (where following the levy goods are not removed)

Reasonable

costs and fees incurred

.

Edited June 5, 2013 by outlawla

[nikkikitch]

hi there

 

thanks for your responses.

 

Just to clarify, yes i am self employed and use the car for work.

 

I have checked the register of certificated bailiffs and the chap who took the car is not on it! Apparently for council tax arrears, you have you be certificated?

 

I will write to the council and complain, in the meantime is there anything i can do as my car will be sold in 6 days apparently and i cannot afford £700 right now.

 

It might be worth less without mot and tax, but its certainly worth a lot more than £217! He had it valued whilst he was there and the lowest end was £1300! They surely cant be allowed to get away with selling it? He took the logbook and keys with it....

 

Thanks

[nikkikitch]

Also, he told me that he had posted a hand delivered letter but did not inform me that they intended to take the car. He said they didnt have to! Surely they cant take a car without warning?

[unclebulgaria67]

Can I suggest that you phone National Debtline to explain what has happened and ask what you can do to stop the car being sold, while you pursue a complaint with bailiff and council.

 

http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/

 

Apparently National Debtline can be very helpful in these situations and given the time constraints, you might wish to see if they can help you.

 

Please can you post back once you have done this.

 

Getting your local MP and councillors involved can also help, as I think what the bailiff has done here, is very dubious.

[nikkikitch]

Thank you, I'll try them and report back.

[nikkikitch]

I spoke to national debt line who advised me to complain to the CEO of the council, the police for their lack of protection and misconduct and also the bailiff company.

 

He said its one of the worst cases he's heard of and how ive been treated is completely inappropriate and illegal, especially on the police womans part. She should have protected me when he made threats to forcefully take my phone off me and she shouldve also knows that he was wrong when he told me if i attempted to keep any items (including my housemates laptop) it would be classed as theft and she could arrest me. She said this was true!

 

The upshot is, my car probably will be sold as the process of complaining and hopefully getting some money back will be a long one. But i could actually claim the loss of my car back given the way ive been treated apparently.

 

The other thing is, the bailiff isnt certificated so had no right taking any of my goods in the first place!

 

How these cretins continue to operate above the law like this is unbelievable. Surely after so many complaints from people in similar situations something has to be done to regulate these people!?

[unclebulgaria67]

I spoke to national debt line who advised me to complain to the CEO of the council, the police for their lack of protection and misconduct and also the bailiff company.

 

He said its one of the worst cases he's heard of and how ive been treated is completely inappropriate and illegal, especially on the police womans part. She should have protected me when he made threats to forcefully take my phone off me and she shouldve also knows that he was wrong when he told me if i attempted to keep any items (including my housemates laptop) it would be classed as theft and she could arrest me. She said this was true!

 

The upshot is, my car probably will be sold as the process of complaining and hopefully getting some money back will be a long one. But i could actually claim the loss of my car back given the way ive been treated apparently.

 

The other thing is, the bailiff isnt certificated so had no right taking any of my goods in the first place!

 

How these cretins continue to operate above the law like this is unbelievable. Surely after so many complaints from people in similar situations something has to be done to regulate these people!?

 

Make a formal complaint to the Police at your nearest Police station. Ask to speak to an Inspector and advise them what National Debtline have told you. Report the car as being stolen, as the bailiff was not certified and therefore could not action any liability order obtained by the council from the Magistrates courts. Request that the Police insist on the bailiff returning the car to you.

 

I believe that a bailiff who is uncertified would be committing theft, if they took away goods from a debtor, as the bailiff would not have the authority of the Magistrates via a liability order.

 

Have a read of this link, which you will need to copy and paste into the address bar on your browser to access.

 

www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn04103.pdf‎

[nikkikitch]

Do i actually have grounds to report him to the police? I'm just a little nervous given ive had both the council and police officer who attended tell me that these guys were completely within the law! :/

 

Just to double check, the guy who was in charge and ordered all of the actions that were taken AND signed the papers that were left with me, is not on the register however the bailiff company will not give me the full name of the other chap, only his surname. I've checked the register and there is someone with his surname on it that works for Marstons but not in the same area. It might not be him but either way this chap didnt sign any paperwork so i presume my case is against the guy that did and who is not certificated?

[ploddertom]

A Bailiff may obtain his Certificate at any County Court within England or Wales which then empowers him to distrain on goods anywhere again in England or Wales. The fact he is registered elsewhere to your locality is of no concern.

 

The fact that one name does not appear on the Register may solely be down to the fact the Register is never 100% correct. You should ask which Court he purports to be Certificated at and check with that Court directly.

[ploddertom]

Did you get any answers to the questions posed in Post 10?

 

Did the Bailiff ever give you a Notice of Seizure? What other paperwork were you left?

[unclebulgaria67]

Do i actually have grounds to report him to the police? I'm just a little nervous given ive had both the council and police officer who attended tell me that these guys were completely within the law! :/

 

Just to double check, the guy who was in charge and ordered all of the actions that were taken AND signed the papers that were left with me, is not on the register however the bailiff company will not give me the full name of the other chap, only his surname. I've checked the register and there is someone with his surname on it that works for Marstons but not in the same area. It might not be him but either way this chap didnt sign any paperwork so i presume my case is against the guy that did and who is not certificated?

 

As has been said you are entitled to be given the details of the certificated bailiff responsible who attended your property. If they don't supply this, then make a complaint to the Police and report the car as stolen. They cannot take property if they are not certificated, as to do so would be theft.

 

Don't be fooled by what you were told. Police officers have little knowledge of bailiffs and they would not have checked whether they were certificated by a magistrates court.

 

If I put this politely. You have been given advice by National Debtline and on CAG. It is entirely up to you whether you follow any advice but if you choose not to do so, you will have to accept the consequences of not following this up. What happened with the bailiff visit as you explained it was not acceptable and if you don't do anything you will be letting them get away with it.

[nikkikitch]

Oh i absolutely will be following this up dont worry! i just want to get my facts straight before i go to the police and write a formal complaint to the council.

 

In answer to the other questions, no i have had no letter of intention to seize my vehicle. The bailiff told me he hand delivered a letter but did not mention seizure of the car in it ''because he didnt have to''.

 

The only paperwork i have been left with is the goods inventory for my car, signed by him. He very cleverly took the only other document which was a notice of distress with the original amount on of £217, plus charges for two visits and a van. I didnt sign it obviously but he's taken it with him.