East Coast - Counterfeit Gumtree Ticket - sentenced

[worried person]

Posting under a Pseudo, hope firstclassx, Old-CodJA and others are able to help.

 

Partner has foolishly bought a counterfeit season ticket for not much less than the real price,

 

he was stopped last Friday by a eagle eyed ticket inspector and turns out that it is fake.

 

BTP were called but before they arrested him on fraud

the ticket man said he would like it dealt with by way of going on by himself and not being arrested there and then

as they would like to conduct further internal investigations and as long as BTP confirmed the identity he was happy with that.

 

Partner told me about this last night and I am mortified,

he is currently on a suspended sentence for an altercation earlier this year

and I fear he will now activate that and as the only bread winner

leave us with nothing losing his job as he will be sent to prison.

I fear we will lose our house, our world, what a absolute idiot.

 

He confirmed whilst on the phone that the ticket was not on the internal system

but did relate to a valid ticket machine but none were sold at that exact time.

 

Can you tell me what would be expected here?

 

Would they pass it to BTP or would they contact me with what they have found?

 

Would the charge be a byelaw or criminal?

 

Would this be activated?

 

I am in tears here.

Edited May 23, 2014 by worried person

[rebel11]

Hi worried person

 

Welcome to CAG

 

Try not to worry, it's not the end of your world. The guys will advise as soon as they are available.

 

What's the name of the train operator?

 

Will your OH co-operate as to whom or where the ticket was purchased?

[worried person]

Hi rebel, been a while since I been on didnt realise you have been made up to site team, congrats.

 

The TOC is EC and yes would be dying here to settle out of court but I fear this is somewhat a bit more serious than borrowing someone elses ticket or altering it. The ticket I am told was bought via gumtree by him and his mate and had to be paid for in bitcoins, which I have since googled.

[rebel11]

Hi worried person

 

Many Thanks.

 

It might be an idea to track down the Gumtree Advertisement, so what he is saying stacks up. Are season tickets readily sold on Gumtree? It's not the most reliable place to buy stuff.

 

Hi rebel, been a while since I been on didnt realise you have been made up to site team, congrats.

 

The TOC is EC and yes would be dying here to settle out of court but I fear this is somewhat a bit more serious than borrowing someone elses ticket or altering it. The ticket I am told was bought via gumtree by him and his mate and had to be paid for in bitcoins, which I have since googled.

[worried person]

I have googled the hell out of it and cannot find any matches, I have used all connotations and the partner no longer has the link. Even tried wayback machine and cached but to no avail.. Yep am au fait with giumtree, wouldnt buy a 1p piece off of there

[rebel11]

O.K. lets see what the guys advise. Do something to take your mind off this.

 

I have googled the hell out of it and cannot find any matches, I have used all connotations and the partner no longer has the link. Even tried wayback machine and cached but to no avail.. Yep am au fait with giumtree, wouldnt buy a 1p piece off of there

[BankFodder]

He definitely needs to go and see a solicitor immediately. I'm afraid that it is highly likely to end up in court and the matter of his suspended sentence might well come up.

 

How long ago was the suspended sentence? does he have any other criminal record - especially for offences of dishonesty. I must say that a suspended sentence for a fight seems to be pretty harsh. Was it a particularly violent fight? or was there some previous there as well?

 

If he really does have no other form, then it may be possible to persuade the court not to activate the suspended on the basis that the ticket fraud is not at all the same type of offence

I think that a good criminal solicitor and lots of character references should be high your list. Also, not to cause any fuss but to plead guilty and to express unreserved contrition

[worried person]

Hey bankfodder, Suspeneded was imposed last year in Sept with 150 hours unpaid and compensation order £1200, both completed. When I say colourful it is like a who's who of offences and many are dishonest. Do not hink this will end well, all knotted up inside.

[BankFodder]

I'm very sorry but you are right to be very concerned about the outcome.

 

There is nothing we can advise here.

 

Go and see a solicitor immediately.

 

I think that the very best you can do is to put your hands up completely.

 

Use letters to express as much remorse as possible.

 

I don't see anything wrong with writing to the transport company and explaining exactly what has happened

and how you admit completely to having made a stupid mistake

- and telling them that if they decide to take you to court, that you will cooperate completely

and not cause them or the court any more trouble or expense than you have already put them to.

 

Tell that you are happy that this letter containing your admission of guilt is read out in court.

 

Make sure that he stays in his job and works as well as he can.

I am sure that he will need employers references to the effect that he works well

and that they depend upon him etc

- but also that they may not be able to hold the job open from him if he is obliged to be absent for a while.

 

Of course this may be tough because he will have to tell his employers

and they may be worried about keeping him on in the circumstances.

 

This is a judgment you will have to make - but it will be much better of he can bring his employers on-side.

 

I think that the thing will turn on voluntary expressions of remorse, character references - especially from work

- and also the fact that he is the sole bread-winner and that there will be a serious impact on his family,

both economically and socially if he receives a custodial sentence.

 

Do you have any social workers working with you?

If so, then you need to talk to them about the problem and see if they are prepared to say that he is a good parent etc

- and the effect on the child.

 

He might scrape by with a second suspended sentence if he can satisfy my suggestions above

- plus the fact that the courts are not every willing to put small-time offenders into an overcrowded prison system.

 

If he has received a suspended sentence for dishonesty in the past then it will be more tricky.

I'm so sorry. It must be heartbreaking.

[BankFodder]

By the way, a letter of admission and remorse could also contain an unconditional offer to provide them any information they might require to discover the source of the forged ticket.

[Old-CodJA]

Posting under a Pseudo, hope firstclassx, Old-CodJA and others are able to help.

 

Partner has foolishly bought a counterfeit season ticket for not much less than the real price, he was stopped last Friday by a eagle eyed ticket inspector and turns out that it is fake. BTP were called but before they arrested him on fraud the ticket man said he would like it dealt with by way of going on by himself adn not being arrested there and then as they would like to conduct further internal investigations and as long as BTP confirmed the identity he was happy with that.

 

Partner told me about this last night and I am mortified, he is currently on a suspended sentence for an altercation earlier this year and I fear he will now activate that and as the only bread winner leave us with nothing losing his job as he will be sent to prison. I fear we will lose our house, our world, what a absolute idiot.

He confirmed whilst on the phone that the ticket was not on the internal system but did relate to a valid ticket machine but none were sold at that exact time.

 

Can you tell me what would be expected here? Would they pass it to BTP or would they contact me with what they have found? Would the charge be a byelaw or criminal? Would this be activated? I am in tears here.

 

 

 

 

Firstly I am certainly not going to condemn, it is clear that you realise the seriousness of this matter,

but it is vitally important that your partner also recognises how damaging this can be

and that he is totally honest about all of this if he is to have any chance of a reasonable outcome for him.

 

By the way, I notice that you have also posted this on another forum and I do not intend to respond on that thread.

 

Many posters will immediately advise that your partner must go to a 'specialist' railway offences solicitor.

It does make absolute sense to seek qualified legal advice of a solicitor, but it is not necessary to pay the very high fees

that many of those claiming to be specialists in the field will expect.

 

I note from your post that you ask whether EC will pass the information to you.

Unless you are a qualified lawyer who is formally acting on behalf of your partner the answer to that is NO.

 

I strongly suggest that your partner, along with you, make an appointment for an initial consultation with a solicitor

who is local to you and who specialises in criminal matters.

 

It may be that if he was represented during the public order case,

perhaps he can use the same firm who acted for him then.

If he's not happy with that then check and see who is recommended in this line of work in your area.

 

Those of us working in revenue protection and prosecutions within the industry have been aware of some fairly convincing forgeries

in circulation over several months now and RPI teams are briefed to be extra vigilant in looking for them all the time.

 

Your partner needs to be totally honest about EVERY aspect of this case from now on.

If he bought the ticket from an unauthorised source as he has said,

he needs to provide every bit of help that he can in order to assist the rail company

to detect & apprehend the offenders who made & sold it.

 

I am not saying that this is what happened in this case, but the classic excuse

"I bought it from a chap in the pub guv..." or "My mate got it from a bloke on the internet"

are claims that have been done to death and in a very high percentage of cases we find the reality is much different.

 

In due course your partner will receive a letter from EC or their agents and he should answer that immediately.

I don't usually advise contacting the TOC directly before they contact the alleged offender,

but in this case, if he can help and is willing to talk to a solicitor quickly, this case might be expedited.

 

Now for the serious bit:

Once their investigations are complete and if they are convinced that your partner knowingly participated in the distribution

& use of a faked ticket, he could be charged with a serious offence under the Fraud Act [2006],

which may result in charges being brought before a Crown Court.

 

If they believe that he simply knew he didn't have a valid ticket and intended to avoid a fare

they might charge a collection of offences contrary to S.5 of The Regulation of Railways Act [1889]

covering the dates that he had used it and these would be put before a Magistrates Court.

 

Even if the TOC decide that he had nothing to do with the production and knew nothing of the distribution of fake tickets,

they can bring a Byelaw charge of 'buying a ticket from an unauthorised source'

so you can see this isn't something that is taken lightly.

 

Get your partner to write down absolutely everything that he knows about how he obtained the ticket

and ensure that he is as helpful as possible with the solicitor,

who should contact EC and attempt to mitigate the offence as soon as possible.

 

It may be quite likely that, even after hearing or reading the solicitors' appeal on behalf of your partner,

EC may decide to prosecute anyway and that will be their call.

 

If they do so, having a solicitor to put his mitigation to a Court in relation to his action

and financial circumstances etc. will be very important in this instance.

 

Let us know what happens and if he remembers anything that can significantly help in this case.

[worried person]

Thanks Old-CodJA,

 

unfortunately it was a case it was bought of the internet,

 

the advert was on gumtree of which I cannot find now

and they spoke to the guy who was polish

and met him at liverpool street stn and gave him the money

 

when he could see to an unormal trained eye that it looked fine as the same as the ones he was purchasing before.

 

he has the email address of the person but he has not emailed him as yet about this.

[rebel11]

Hi Worried Person

 

You could send a SAR request to TFL for a copy of the security tape for that time, date and location, that will at least add weight and support your story as to how the season ticket was obtained. You would have to send £10, they have 40 days to respond.

 

http://ico.org.uk/for_the_public/topic_specific_guides/cctv

 

Here's a template, send it Recorded Delivery:-

 

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/subject-access-request-form.pdf

 

Keep strong.

[worried person]

Thanks Rebel thats a great shout but if the police get involved wont they do that anyway? I also fear if they wait the 40 days for a response the investigation would be complete already by then and wont be worth it

[rebel11]

Hi worried person

 

40 days is the max that it would take, I personally would be pro-active, you can't find the Gumtree ad. That's if the police get involved, I just think it would be helpful.

 

Thanks Rebel thats a great shout but if the police get involved wont they do that anyway? I also fear if they wait the 40 days for a response the investigation would be complete already by then and wont be worth it

[worried person]

Yeah will get onto it, nothing to lose

[firstclassx]

I would hesitate before consulting a solicitor,

although to be perfectly blunt,

I would say it is almost certain this will proceed to trial in a criminal court,

and I wouldn't be surprised if the suspended sentence was activated.

 

Wait for East Coast to contact your partner

- whilst they can go straight for a summons,

they will normally offer an opportunity to provide mitigation

- and the correspondence will normally indicate what offence(s) they are investigating.

A solicitor will be able to offer more constructive advice at this point.

 

It is very unlikely East Coast will use an offence within the Fraud Act 2006 as there are some complicated administrative issues associated with this.

 

The other problem is that, ideally, East Coast would ideally want this case listed for the Magistrates' Court - not the Crown.

 

The case is severe enough that a Byelaw offence would not really be appropriate, unless being used to supplement the main offence(s).

 

My expectations would be a prosecution for one of the following offences:

 

Section 3 - Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981

The offence of using a false instrument.

 

It is an offence for a person to use an instrument which is, and which he knows or believes to be, false,

with the intention of inducing somebody to accept it as genuine, and by reason of so accepting it to do

or not to do some act to his own or any other person’s prejudice.

 

Penalties

 

(1)A person guilty of an offence under this Part of this Act shall be liable on summary conviction—

(a)to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum; or

(b)to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months; or

©to both.

 

Section 3 of the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981 can only be tried at the Magistrates' Court.

 

Section 5 - Regulation of Railways Act 1889

 

(3)If any person—

(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof;

 

[...]he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding (£1000)

 

A conviction for either of these offences could activate the suspended sentence.

 

On top of any criminal action taken, East Coast could also make a civil claim for compensation amounting to the ticket value.

However, depending on the value, during the criminal proceedings, the court will normally order that such amount

is paid in addition to court costs and fine(s) etc.

 

The Sentencing Guidelines for such an offence says the court should impose the following standards:

 

1) Article(s) intended for

use in a less extensive

and less skilfully

planned fraud

 

POSSESSION OF ARTICLE

 

Starting point:

Community order (MEDIUM)

Range:

Community order (LOW)- 26 weeks custody

 

2) Article(s) intended for

use in an extensive and

skilfully planned fraud

 

POSSESSION OF ARTICLE

 

Starting point:

36 weeks custody

Range:

6 weeks-2 years custody

 

Mitigation

 

The only way I can see any sort of mitigation being accepted is if you can identify the person who sold him the ticket,

and assist in the resulting prosecution. If you have no details etc. of that person, I can't see you have any leverage.

 

1) What is the value of the false ticket?

2) Exactly how long was it used for?

3) How much did your partner pay for the false ticket?

[Old-CodJA]

Whilst I do not normally advocate pre-empting the TOC contact and do not usually advise going to see a solicitor so early, there are very good reasons for doing so in this case, not least your partners' previous history.

 

I don't disagree with firstclassx in that charges could be brought under the Forgery & Counterfeiting Act, I also agree that the TOC will prefer to deal with this under the Regulation of Railways Act in order to keep it with the in-house prosecutor as it were, but it may well be that prompt investigation might lead to detection of the source of these tickets and a much more effective action. If they go for a Forgery & Counterfeiting Act charge this becomes likely to go before the Crown Court because the Magistrates sentencing powers are limited.

 

As an example on 9th May five persons associated with similar criminal activities were jailed for a total of 10 years for producing and selling fake tickets. These serious cases will not be dealt with by TOC prosecutors and as in the instance reported here, were investigated by BTP Fraud Squad and prosecuted by CPS.

 

In order to have any chance of a successful outcome of investigation involving the ticket held by your partner, time really is of the essence. You must remember that it is he who must deal with this and promptly. Unless you were directly involved in something to do with the ticket, you cannot deal with it for him, but I do fully understand your wish to help and support him.

 

I could have gone into lengthy explanations of a great many possible charges and legislations that might be considered by prosecutors, but made my post deliberately focus on the need for your partner to be as pro-active as possible in helping the enquiry, so as to stand a chance of catching the fraudsters and give him the best chance of credit for that, which will ultimately give him the best possible outcome personally.

[worried person]

I would hesitate before consulting a solicitor,

although to be perfectly blunt,

I would say it is almost certain this will proceed to trial in a criminal court,

and I wouldn't be surprised if the suspended sentence was activated.

 

Wait for East Coast to contact your partner

- whilst they can go straight for a summons,

they will normally offer an opportunity to provide mitigation

- and the correspondence will normally indicate what offence(s) they are investigating.

A solicitor will be able to offer more constructive advice at this point.

 

It is very unlikely East Coast will use an offence within the Fraud Act 2006 as there are some complicated administrative issues associated with this.

 

The other problem is that, ideally, East Coast would ideally want this case listed for the Magistrates' Court - not the Crown.

 

The case is severe enough that a Byelaw offence would not really be appropriate, unless being used to supplement the main offence(s).

 

My expectations would be a prosecution for one of the following offences:

 

 

 

 

 

A conviction for either of these offences could activate the suspended sentence.

 

On top of any criminal action taken, East Coast could also make a civil claim for compensation amounting to the ticket value.

However, depending on the value, during the criminal proceedings, the court will normally order that such amount

is paid in addition to court costs and fine(s) etc.

 

The Sentencing Guidelines for such an offence says the court should impose the following standards:

 

1) Article(s) intended for

use in a less extensive

and less skilfully

planned fraud

 

POSSESSION OF ARTICLE

 

Starting point:

Community order (MEDIUM)

Range:

Community order (LOW)- 26 weeks custody

 

2) Article(s) intended for

use in an extensive and

skilfully planned fraud

 

POSSESSION OF ARTICLE

 

Starting point:

36 weeks custody

Range:

6 weeks-2 years custody

 

Mitigation

 

The only way I can see any sort of mitigation being accepted is if you can identify the person who sold him the ticket,

and assist in the resulting prosecution. If you have no details etc. of that person, I can't see you have any leverage.

 

1) What is the value of the false ticket?

2) Exactly how long was it used for?

3) How much did your partner pay for the false ticket?

Hi firstclassx, in answer to your questions:

 

1. £approx 600 dont want to say exactly as it might be identifiable on a public board

2. In this case 7 working days

3. approx 12% less than face value basically got about £80 off.

 

Thing is we cannot provide much information on the source because of the way it was obtained, all we have is an email address for any further discounted tickets. I think they might involve BTP purely like you and Old_CodJA have said they will want to get to the source and explore all avenues and wont have the resources to deal with doing that.

 

Whilst I do not normally advocate pre-empting the TOC contact and do not usually advise going to see a solicitor so early, there are very good reasons for doing so in this case, not least your partners' previous history.

 

I don't disagree with firstclassx in that charges could be brought under the Forgery & Counterfeiting Act, I also agree that the TOC will prefer to deal with this under the Regulation of Railways Act in order to keep it with the in-house prosecutor as it were, but it may well be that prompt investigation might lead to detection of the source of these tickets and a much more effective action. If they go for a Forgery & Counterfeiting Act charge this becomes likely to go before the Crown Court because the Magistrates sentencing powers are limited.

 

As an example on 9th May five persons associated with similar criminal activities were jailed for a total of 10 years for producing and selling fake tickets. These serious cases will not be dealt with by TOC prosecutors and as in the instance reported here, were investigated by BTP Fraud Squad and prosecuted by CPS.

 

In order to have any chance of a successful outcome of investigation involving the ticket held by your partner, time really is of the essence. You must remember that it is he who must deal with this and promptly. Unless you were directly involved in something to do with the ticket, you cannot deal with it for him, but I do fully understand your wish to help and support him.

 

I could have gone into lengthy explanations of a great many possible charges and legislations that might be considered by prosecutors, but made my post deliberately focus on the need for your partner to be as pro-active as possible in helping the enquiry, so as to stand a chance of catching the fraudsters and give him the best chance of credit for that, which will ultimately give him the best possible outcome personally.

So you are advocating that he get in touch with the TOC?

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

I'm sending you a PM, please check your inbox.

 

HB

[Old-CodJA]

In this instance, YES, but it is definitely best done via a solicitor in my view.

 

He could contact the Customer Relations department, explain that he has an urgent need to speak to someone about an incident with a ticket inspector and a season ticket, but it is unlikely that they will give much assistance over the phone, unless they are prepared to put him through to the revenue protection department. I will not give their direct number on here and I strongly suggest that it is far better that he gets a legally trained representative to make that approach for him.

 

Sadly, it is all too easy to make matters worse without qualified advice in serious cases.

 

East Coast Customer Relations can be contacted on 03457 225 333 and they are open Monday to Sunday 07.00- 22.00

[worried person]

Thanks HB and thanks also with regards to the contents, I will await the further contact details. I do have a normal account on here and have contributed to the forums many times in the past but using this pseudo name due tot his issue at hand.

 

In this instance, YES, but it is definitely best done via a solicitor in my view.

 

He could contact the Customer Relations department, explain that he has an urgent need to speak to someone about an incident with a ticket inspector and a season ticket, but it is unlikely that they will give much assistance over the phone, unless they are prepared to put him through to the revenue protection department. I will not give their direct number on here and I strongly suggest that it is far better that he gets a legally trained representative to make that approach for him.

 

Sadly, it is all too easy to make matters worse without qualified advice in serious cases.

 

East Coast Customer Relations can be contacted on 03457 225 333 and they are open Monday to Sunday 07.00- 22.00

Thanks Old-CodJA for this and the other.

[honeybee13]

Hi WP, how are you getting on?

 

HB

[worried person]

Just waiting now HB

[Old-CodJA]

I know that it is worrying and will inevitably give concern, but I would try very hard not to let this overshadow everything else if you can.

 

These investigations can move quite slowly at times, and provided that your partner has been wholly truthful now, there is perhaps a chance that the TOC may see him as foolish and opportunistic rather than setting out to deliberately deceive, in which case there may also be a chance that they might allow an opportunity that otherwise would not occur.

 

There are no guarantees, all you can do now is continue to wait, but try to live as normally as possible.