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HPMum v hsbc'managed loan' - been paying a DCA for years on this - help

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Good day !

 

I have a very old debt with Hsbc and really need some help, please.

 

I had 2 accounts with hsbc - set up start 2003.

A business account - which was simply me trading as XXX. Had a healthy Turnover and with an agreed unsecured o/d of £3k.

And a personal account, again healthy with an agreed unsecured o/d of £500.

 

The Business Account was closed end 05. Owing nothing.

I continued to trade only using my Personal Acc.

Between my business and property rental I had enough healthy flow of income for Hsbc to increase my o/d to £25k by start 2005.

The o/d was an "On-demand Form"; Unsecured.

 

However, during 2005 I started to have financial problems and ended up owing the whole o/d amount of £25k.

By the end of 2005 Hsbc wanted to transfer my o/d into a Managed Loan Agreement.

They sent the papers, but I never signed.

 

So then Hsbc handed over the whole debt to a DCA, Metropolitan.

I paid them a nominal monthly amount for 3 years.

 

Then Hsbc wrote, start 09, saying they had assigned the total debt to CL Finance.

Again I have been paying a nominal monthly amount for almost 5 years.

 

In total I have paid back apx £4k to these DCAs.

 

I missed a couple payments this year.

CL have just written demanding immediate payment of the £20k and threatening Court Action.

 

What can I do ?

The debt is unsecured.

I do not have the ability to clear the outstanding o/d amount.

 

Would be most grateful for advice.

Many thanks

x

 

Anyone ??

 

Can I send a template letter to CL Finance ?

 

Like a SAR ?

What form do I send into CL to see if the unsecured overdraft is enforceable ?

 

Many thanks for advice

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Hello on a sunny Sunday,

 

 

I am trying to sort out an old unsecured hsbc personal account, now with a dca for 8 years.

 

I had 2 accounts:

1) A Business Account was set up start 2003 - a current account held in my name and with a trading/as business name.

hsbc gave me an o/d for 3k - an "on demand", unsecured o/d.

Business traded ok through this account until end 2005, when I closed this account.

 

2) A Personal Account was also set up start 2003 - a current account with no o/d.

Initially I used this account just for personal issues, but by end 2003 I started using it for another personal income source.

As the income was initially healthy in and out by mid 2004 hsbc offered an o/d for 10k.

It was a variable rate on-demand o/d.

By start 2005, hsbc agreed to increase the o/d to 25k unsecured.

 

By Autumn 2005 hsbc obviously got nervous with such a large unsecured o/d.

They wrote wanting to consolidate my pers & biz accounts - to create a Managed Loan Agreement - and sent large docs to sign.

I never responded to their paperwork. ie I never agreed to or signed their MLA.

I cleared and closed the business account (£0) but retained the personal account with 25k o/d.

 

But start 2006, hsbc cancelled the o/d facility.

My circumstances had changed and I was unable to repay the o/d.

hsbc passed the balance outstanding to their in-house dca for collection.

 

I paid token monthly amounts to this dca for 3 years, from start 06 to end 08.

Start 09, hsbc wrote - they had assigned "all of its rights, title and interest" to an independent dca, CL.

For the last 5 years I have continued paying the same token monthly payments.

At end 2013, I missed one monthly payment and CL immediately appointed a recovery agent for the balance outstanding.

The alleged balance outstanding is still high - £20k.

hsbc closed my personal account 8 years ago.

 

I have been reading lots of similar situations on here.

By all accounts - the alleged sum outstanding relates to an unsecured personal o/d.

Can the dca legally collect on such an unsecured debt?

 

Am now wondering if this alleged debt is enforceable at all ?????

What is the best course of action.

Should I send a SAR to the current dca ?

 

Would be good to have some feedback.

Thanks in advance.

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Sar to HSBC

Sar the DCA


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The SabreSheep, All information is offered on good faith and based on mine and others experiences. I am not a qualified legal professional and you should always seek legal advice if you are unsure of your position.

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You are also looking for PPI :)


PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 

 

 

 

The SabreSheep, All information is offered on good faith and based on mine and others experiences. I am not a qualified legal professional and you should always seek legal advice if you are unsure of your position.

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have you read the managed loans threads

 

pers this is dodgy from the word go.

 

citizenB is your siteteam member for these

 

pers I think you've been had.


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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HSBC and their Managed loans, they absolutely loved these. They would let you run up huge overdrafts/credit card bills then pull the rug out from underneath your feet.

 

By offering/insisting on a Managed loan, they would roll up all their OWN lending, irrespective of your income/expenditure and how much other debt you might have. By rolling up your other debt, they removed from you, the protection that you had on those accounts under the Consumer credit act (many HSBC credit cards had not been set up properly) and enrolled you in a water tight ML.

 

Did you have Payment Protection Insurance on the Managed loan ?

 

When they encouraged the Managed Loan, did they go through a Means and Needs procedure with you ?

 

As DX has already advised, you need to send a Subject Access Request to HSBC as soon as you can, when you receive the data, you need to look for the Means and Needs sheet and see how the loan was actually approved.

 

What would happen is that they would look at your "accounts" and the automated/computer application would reject because there would be insufficient funds or you had too much debt. So it would a manual application and htat is where things started to go wrong for the debtor. HSBC would ignore all but their own debt and provide a loan for that amount only.. in fact what htey were doing was setting you up to default and as it was a new loan and contract perfect, you wouldnt have a leg to stand on :(


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Thank You to whoever joined the dots between my old thread and this thread !!

 

 

CitizenB - Hsbc offered me - without ever asking me - a MLA. They sent an Agreement to sign. I took one look at it and realised consolidation was not in my best interest. They had grouped together my 2 unsecured accounts and, in hindsight looking at the figures, maybe my credit card as well - to present a huge sum that bore no relevance to my needs.

As I said, I cleared the biz account by end 2005 anyway and eventually cleared the cc.

I never signed the MLA docs.

So in essence - my personal account remained as an o/d.

I do have correspondence from them asking me to sign the docs.

Then I have correspondence asking for immediate repayment of the sums owing. Clearly my debt was still an o/d not a MLA.

 

So should I SAR just the current dca ?

hsbc wote saying they had sold the debt - so why would I send them a SAR ?

 

 

Are you saying that they sold the debt to the dca as if it was a MLA ? Which is why it is important to ask for a Means & Needs sheet ?

There was no PPI involved.

I always opted out on PPI with every financial institution (fortunately )

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I just checked with CRA - and there is nothing on my file for this hsbc account.

 

 

Interestingly there is a default listed on my hsbc cc. Which is surprising as I have been paying monthly and was unaware it was considered defaulted. This is a separate issue obviously - but will have to get on to that too ..

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How long has the DCA had the account ? They will have very little information - your personal details, the account reference and how much is outstanding to be collected.

 

If you didnt sign the paperwork for a Managed Loan, then that is good. It would appear that both dx and myself missed the part where you say that you didnt sign this in your first post :)


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2: Take back control of your finances -

Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors?

Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt

Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated -

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2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

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Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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hi

Start 06 hsbc passed my o/d to their inhouse dca - Metropolitan, with DG solicitors pushing.

End 08/Start 09 hsbc sold o/d to CL.

 

I paid monthly payments for 3 years to Metropolitan.

Then same amount monthly to CL.

So 5.5 years with CL.

But no mention of this o/d debt on my CRA file.

 

So should i draft a SAR to CL ? Or hsbc ?

Should I stop paying ?

 

Guess it depends how you look at the situation:

hsbc took my o/d off their books at the start of 2006 - 8 years ago.

And CL took over the o/d 5.5 years ago.

 

I have checked the templates.

 

Is it a "full" SAR I need to adapt and send ?

or a "debt/dca" SAR that I need to adapt and send ?

 

And to CL or hsbc ?

 

I just checked my post: Robinson Way have now been appointed to chase this debt....

Despite me paying these monthly payments....

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A sar goes to the original creditor.


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http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?387306-Full-Subject-Access-Request

 

I would send the full SAR - you are entitled to everything for your £10.00 and it saves them messing you around if you dont get something because you didnt specifically request it.

 

:)

 

Have you been advised of the changes of DCA and in what capacity they are acting.. ? Either has the new owner of hte debt or simply acting on behalf of another company ?

 

If the debt has been sold, then either HSBC or the new owner should have sent you a Notice of Assignment. If they are simply acting on behalf of say, HSBC.. then you should have been made aware that you needed to make payments elsewhere.

 

I have attached a letter that you can send to Robinson Way so that you can at least establish who you are legitimately supposed to be paying.

 

 

Have you been receiving statements ?


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3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors?

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4: Staying Calm About Debt

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2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

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Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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HI

 

I have never received statements - ever.

Only when I missed the monthly payments do they - CL - or in this instance RWay - advise me of a balance outstanding.

 

Lewis now RW appear to be acting on behalf of CL. I will check the exact wording on their letters and revert back later...

 

I am not going to open a can of worms with hsbc am i ? It has been 5.5 years since they assigned it all to CL !!

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I dont quite understand what you mean by "opening a can of worms" with HSBC ?

 

Are you saying that account has been assigned/sold to CL and you know about this - they have sent you a Notice of Assignment ? It would seem as though RW are acting on behalf of CL finance, but to be honest, I dont understand what is actually happening ? If you have been making the payments to CL finance, what is the issue ?

 

The fact that you have been making the payments means this account is not statute barred. It will no longer be showing on your CR file simply because the default date is probably older than 6 years. How much of the debt is still outstanding? If it is a lot, then you might be opening a can of worms with CL if you were to cease payments.

 

You must ask CL Finance to provide statements showing how the balance has reduced.


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Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt

Read Here

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BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Righto, I have reread the first post.. there is approximately £20,000 outstanding. They have threatened court action if you dont pay the whole amount. Are you a property owner ?

 

It seems as though you might have missed a couple of payments and they might be looking to formalise the repayment arrangement by taking court action. If you then miss payments you could find yourself with some trouble.

 

If you are a property owner, they might look to put a charge on your property.


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Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

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1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy -

HERE

2: Take back control of your finances -

Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors?

Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt

Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated -

Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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hi

 

Not sure if I am confusing you.

The overdraft with hsbc was unsecured. Which I kind of assume was unenforceable, given that hsbc never took me to court ?

Maybe I am wrong - but they never took it to court.

Instead they accepted monthly payments via their in house Metropolitan, with a little DG solicitor push to make me nervous and ensure I made these token £50 payments.

Then after 3 years they assigned the debt in total to CL. (end 08/start 09)

 

I have been making payments regularly.

No statements from CL ever.

But I am now questioning why I paid and didn't question the debt ????

 

If hsbc sold an unsecured unenforceable debt - why I am still paying ?

 

I don't know why I need to SAR hsbc if I know they sold the debt. Or is there a reason to SAR hsbc ?? is it cos they were the original bank giving the £s ??

 

What will I achieve if I send a SAR to CL ??

Can I question the debt ?

Can I push them to prove there is a debt ?

 

I am not sure how statute barred works. If I have been paying CL, does this mean that my payments have prolonged the contact and it can't be statute barred from hsbc ? Or if I SAR hsbc now, I can push to get it statute barred from 2009 when it was sold ? I don't understand this...

 

Yes, I do own a property.

And I am trying to improve my CAR file !!

So do not want to "open can of worms" if I start to complain against hsbc, CL or Robinson Way and create a problem with my CRA file.

I am up to date with my monthly payments. I just was late sometimes.

What I have noticed is that if I am late by a few days I immediately get a threatening letter from RW.

So it seems that my 20k debt is now at the top of their list to chase.

This frightens me - as I don't have this kind of money.

And I can not afford to have a charging order on the property.

Especially as I am now questioning if this o/d is enforceable anyway.

 

Hope this clarifies things a bit better....

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Because a debt is unsecured does not mean it's unenforceable.

The debt will not be statute barred if ANY payment to any company has been made in the last 6 year, there is no way to "back date" this in simple terms every payment resets the 6 year clock.

Making a lawful request for information i.e. a SAR has no effect on the status of a debt, it goes to the original creditor in your case HSBC and simply requires the bank tp provide all personal data that it holds on you, and should show the "true" conduct of the account up to the date it was sold.

 

 

The SAR will not in most cases provide a copy of any CCA 1974 (as amended) credit agreement, this is covered by CCA request which should be made to the assignee of the debt (DCA).

 

 

We need to be absolutely clear as to why you think this debt is unenforceable, you have been making payments which is clearly an admission of liability for the debt and is a relevant acknowledgment of the debt.

 

 

An overdraft is a "facility to borrow" only partially regulated by CCA 1974, there is no credit agreement as such, but a letter of acceptance will have been signed for the facility.

 

 

citizen B has explained this already, it is normal procedure for the debt purchaser to demand repayment in full.


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Who is Hoist Portfolio Holding Ltd ????

 

Updated info:

It seems my account has been passed from CL to HPH.

I just received a letter from RW advising they are collecting £s due to HPH ltd (ex hsbc).

At the end of their letter they add in small print:

"Notice of Assignment

Please note that by an agreement dated XX end 2013, your account has been assigned from CL (part of Lewis Group) to HPH. You do not need to take any action as RW will continue to manage your account and correspond with you; payments should continue to be made to RW".

 

I have never made payments to RW !!

Only to CL.

 

So who should I now send the SAR too ??

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robbersway/lewis/cl finance

 

all owned by hoist [DCA]

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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Brigadier - the debt (overdraft) was sold by hsbc more than 5 years ago. And it now seems that it was sold again at the end of 2013.

I know how much I have paid since 2006.

 

For some reason the debt has been sold to a company who is starting to threaten me at a late stage in the debt's history.

 

So - do I SAR this new owner ? To see exactly what personal data, details of the account, and the level of the debt they bought at end 2013 ??

 

OH

 

So CL haven't really sold the debt then ???

It is just an internal shift - for whatever tax reasons ???

 

Late night reading. So Hoist bought the Lewis Group, who own CL. And RW is also now part of Hoist....

So nothing much has changed.

 

So I think the course of action is

a) SAR to Hoist or hsbc or both...

b) Letter to prove the Assignment to Rob Way.

 

Is that right ?

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sure

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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Thank You to whoever joined the dots between my old thread and this thread !!

 

 

CitizenB - Hsbc offered me - without ever asking me - a MLA. They sent an Agreement to sign. I took one look at it and realised consolidation was not in my best interest. They had grouped together my 2 unsecured accounts and, in hindsight looking at the figures, maybe my credit card as well - to present a huge sum that bore no relevance to my needs.

As I said, I cleared the biz account by end 2005 anyway and eventually cleared the cc.

I never signed the MLA docs.

So in essence - my personal account remained as an o/d.

I do have correspondence from them asking me to sign the docs.

Then I have correspondence asking for immediate repayment of the sums owing. Clearly my debt was still an o/d not a MLA.

 

So should I SAR just the current dca ?

hsbc wote saying they had sold the debt - so why would I send them a SAR ?

 

 

Are you saying that they sold the debt to the dca as if it was a MLA ? Which is why it is important to ask for a Means & Needs sheet ?

There was no PPI involved.

I always opted out on PPI with every financial institution (fortunately )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SARs go to the original creditor as said previously because when a debt is sold there is the absolute minimum of data provided to the debt purchaser, as you are not sure if the credit card balance was included in the consolidation of the various debts.

 

 

The data from the SAR should show exactly what the bank has done.


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They would have to have a reason to issue a claim - you have entered into a payment arrangement and sticking to it, so they cannot claim that you are not making payments you are.

 

Perhaps a short note suggesting if they want you to make payments to anotheer company then they should provide the bank details in order for you to do so.


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Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy -

HERE

2: Take back control of your finances -

Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors?

Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt

Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated -

Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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I received another letter from RW at the w/e.

Telling me to keep to my payment schedule - or else.....

Also re-advising the ownership has changed to HPH...

 

My plan of action is to send:

1. SAR (£10 fee, I believe) to hsbc. Can someone clarify the current correct address for hsbc current accounts.

2. And proof of Assignment to RW. Is there a fee needed for this ?

 

If hsbc sold the debt to CL - can someone advise if the SAR will show how much hsbc sold the debt for ?

And is there an additional letter to write to find out how much CL sold the debt (end 2013) to HPH for ??

Or can I add that request in to the Proof of Assignment letter to RW ??

 

Surely if HPH bought an old debt for "pennies in the £" the amount they say is owing, isn't really the amount owed ???

If one offers a settlement I understand dcas have the ability to write only partially settled on your CRA file. But if the debt was sold at a really low level and I clear (evenutally when I get more £s) it at that level, then surely the debt would be settled in full, not partially ???

To be clear - there is nothing on my CRA file about this hsbc debt at the moment. And I don't want RW to add it now...

 

Advice welcomed. Many thanks.

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I received another letter from RW at the w/e.

Telling me to keep to my payment schedule - or else.....

Also re-advising the ownership has changed to HPH...

 

My plan of action is to send:

1. SAR (£10 fee, I believe) to hsbc. Can someone clarify the current correct address for hsbc current accounts.- look in the address sticky of this forum

2. And proof of Assignment to RW. Is there a fee needed for this ? - nope

If hsbc sold the debt to CL - can someone advise if the SAR will show how much hsbc sold the debt for ? -doubt it

And is there an additional letter to write to find out how much CL sold the debt (end 2013) to HPH for ?? -nope

Or can I add that request in to the Proof of Assignment letter to RW ?? - nope

Surely if HPH bought an old debt for "pennies in the £" the amount they say is owing, isn't really the amount owed ???

 

If one offers a settlement I understand dcas have the ability to write only partially settled on your CRA file.

But if the debt was sold at a really low level and I clear (evenutally when I get more £s) it at that level, then surely the debt would be settled in full, not partially ???

 

To be clear - there is nothing on my CRA file about this hsbc debt at the moment. And I don't want RW to add it now...

 

Advice welcomed. Many thanks.

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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