Arrow now got merged Midland bank debt from 1997!!

[wilbyhilby]

I received a letter two weeks ago from Arrow Global informing me that I owe them £3.950.39.

the original agreement being with HSBC dated 06/10/2007,

being transferred to Arrow Global on 13/5/2011

and telling me it has now been transferred to Rockwell who I should now direct all queries to.

 

Yesterday I received a letter from Rockwell telling me the full amount is now overdue

and must be paid within the next ten days or they will take "immediate action",

or if I cannot pay in full to telephone them immediately!.

 

Now the debt that Arrow quoted was indeed a debt I had way back in 1996 through Midland Bank

made up of two separate accounts,

a Midland Bank Account and

a Flexiloan account which the bank closed and transferred

to make up the total amount, after my life took a turn for the worse,

(lost my business, wife and kids, and home)

which left me in a lot of debt and misery and began the worst 8 years I have ever had.

 

Continual harassment and abuse from DCA's. Solicitors, etc, etc.

 

However eventually with the help of a lovely lady (now my wife), and a new son,

(I am by the way, now 74 and a pensioner)

 

we gradually turned it around and over the past few years life has been good,

having got rid of nearly all the debt, and managing our finances best we can.

 

So much so that I was recently offered a Free transfer credit card from Nationwide

who I have had a current account with for the last 14 years

and I accepted it to allow me to transfer a Capital One account

that I had never defaulted on, to get lower interest and reduce the payments.

 

We have been paying the debt quoted by Arrow every single month without fail since 1997

it started with Shakespeare solicitors

then DG Solicitors in 2005,

onto Phoenix

then Fredrickson 2007

 

then we were being sent paying in books which then changed somewhere along the line

to a card from MCS? that allows it to be paid at the post office

which we have been doing regularly every month since, right up to date.

I have all receipts dating back to 2004.

 

The last previous contact we had with anyone was an annual statement from Fredrickson International

on the 24th October 2009 that says phoenix Recoveries (UK) Limited

were the original creditor, and Phoenix Recoveries (UK) Limited S.a.r.l listed as Assignee.

 

Now I am terrified that all the hounding and threats are going to start again,

and I am not going to be able to cope.

 

Do I contact Rockwell if so, how, to my knowledge Arrow have not been involved at all,

never contacted me before and this is the first I have heard of them.

 

Do I keep paying with the card, because I'm now not sure where the money is going.

 

I have now also received a letter from a company called pace forward

entitled Important Address Confirmation saying they wish to discuss an “important personal matter”

and to ring them urgently. I certainly am not going to ring them,

but it seems strange that these letters have only started to arrive

since I recently got my Nationwide credit card!.

 

Could someone please give me some advice, as I want to try and fight these people,

I'm fed up of being made to feel like I do.

[oleg]

Hello Wilby and welcome on board.

 

I think you'll find that the letter of two weeks ago would be from Rockwell

but using Arrow letterhead.

 

That's the usual form with Arrow and the scoundrels who collect debts for them,

with subsequent junk coming from Rock or their other outfits,

eg the Pace thing you received - and which you MUST ignore.

 

I'm very sorry that you've been paying monthly all this time.

If you had stopped doing so, you would have been well in the clear long ago.

 

To summarise the matter . . .

 

Your HSBC debt was assigned to Phoenix.

They then reassigned it [along with a huge portfolio of other accounts, btw] to Arrow.

 

M C S are HSBC so you should have stopped paying with that card once Phoenix had bought the debt.

 

You can now either ignore all letters from Rockwell and their lackeys,

which would mean they eventually give up or pass the account back to Arrow,

who try again through another of their DCA or solicitors.

 

They could also attempt legal action but, given the history of the debt and your circumstances,

would likely get them nowhere.

 

The other option is to grab the bull by the horns and send Rockwell the "prove it" letter from the library.

 

As HSBC naughtily used your current account to pay off your Flexiloan, this could be fun.

 

You could ask Rockwell for a copy of the signed overdraft facility agreement which,

given the age of the account, is not very likely to be found.

 

Hope this helps for starters.

Do not let this matter unnerve you.

I am sure it can be sorted out painlessly.

What a shame you've let all these rogues cash-cow you for so long.

[wilbyhilby]

Thank you oleg, I feel a little better already. I really don't know anything about these things but what I cannot understand is how can Arrow/Rockwell/Phoenix chase this debt when it is being paid to hsbc via mcs and they are obviously accepting the payments.

 

I think maybe I will take your advice and ignore them for a while and see what happens.

 

Surely it would complicate matters if it got to court and I can show that I am still paying it and hsbc are still accepting payments, or doesn't it make any difference.

 

Whatever, I am now in a better frame of mind and think I might take them on with the help from this brilliant forum.

 

Thanks so much for your reply.

[oleg]

Arrow or their solicitors would probably convince a court that your payments to HSBC are nothing to do with them.

 

You really MUST stop those payments immediately.

 

I would demand that HSBC refund every payment since they assigned your account

unless they can give a legitimate explanation of what they have been doing with your money.

 

Unless there's something else you haven't mentioned here,

you don't owe them a single bean since the assignment to Phoenix.

 

Ensure that all communication be in writing.

 

One exception: you could, if you prefer, sort out the HSBC thing at a branch . .

. stay seated even and refuse to leave til they refund what they've taken off you.

 

Arrow's DCAs and solicitors are invariably nasty and threaten court at the drop of a hat.

Don't let them upset you.

 

I think you can get them off your back by the prove-it letter

or demanding a copy of your overdraft agreement

but, as you say, for the time being, yes, just see what effluent they produce.

 

It gives me pleasure to let them waste their resources.

 

What have you been paying HSBC each month

and do you know how much you've paid altogether?

[wilbyhilby]

The first letter I have still got that mentions Phoenix is from Fredrickson in 2007 saying they now act on behalf of them.

So if that is when they first took over the debt I think the amount we have paid could be about 900 to 1000 pounds but I will have to check the receipts.

[oleg]

I thought from your first post you meant you had been paying M C S, owned by HSBC,

and were continuing to do so even after the they had sold the account to Phoenix.

 

However, from your latest post, it seems you may have been paying Phoenix / Arrow

with a payment book from Fredrickson.

 

In that case, disregard all I said earlier about finding out where your payments to M C S

were actually ending up.

 

If you have a payment card and have been paying since 2004

surely you can tell who issued the card and, if different, who the payee is?

[wilbyhilby]

Sorry, I'm obviously not making it very clear, (I'm confused myself),

 

The payment books started in 1997 sent to us by Shakespeare Solicitors,

 

BUT the payment slips state MCS re HSBC collections.

 

The books were replaced with the card that says MCS in 2001

and that is what we have paid with since then.

 

Hope this clarifies it a bit.

[oleg]

Thanks wilby. Yes that does make things clearer but, in relation to what has happened to your payments, clear as mud!

 

Ignore my last post and revert to as I had written previously.

 

If you can't get sense out of HSBC by way of a branch visit or letter, you could send them a SAR, but that would set you back £10.

 

However, let's not lose sight of the fact that your most immediate concern is Rockwell. And I still suggest that your best tactic right now may be to sit and watch what the tides wash ashore.

 

ps I thought Shakespeare was a playwright not a solicitor.

[citizenB]

Have you not received any statements from Metropolitan Collections ?

 

That would be my first step. Write to them and ask why they are continuing to accept monies paid by you if the account has been sold to Arrow Global ?

 

Then a short note to Rockwell advising that there would now appear to be a dispute on the account as you have been making payments to Metropolitan Collections.

[oleg]

C B : It was assigned to Phoenix first and later to Arrow. HSBC need to explain what has happened with these payments.

Arrow - and hence Rockwell - will almost certainly be unaware of these payments but I doubt that will render the account in dispute as such since it is nothing to do with them. Or do you disagree, C B ?

[wilbyhilby]

C B, the answer to your question is No. I have never received a statement from MCS all the time we have dealt with them!

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

C B, the answer to your question is No. I have never received a statement from MCS all the time we have dealt with them!

Make a Formal Complaint to MCS demanding a full and up to date statement.

[renegadeimp]

If rockies are involved then the debt is almost certainly UE

[wilbyhilby]

Great advice thanks, I think I will just hang on for now and see if it escalates then start with a prove it letter to Rockwell as suggested earlier.

 

I do feel a lot better now thanks to the advice, it's at least done away with the "panic" factor, for which I am truly grateful.

 

Watch this space

[dx100uk]

oh dear, looks like you might have been cash cowed for years here.

 

as with ALL your debts

look at send anyone you are paying a CCA request

 

and

 

get and sar off to each original creditor

 

I bet you've PPI lurking

and heeps of penalty charges to reclaim as well.

 

a 1997 debt still being paid rings serious alarm bells here.

 

dx

[citizenB]

C B : It was assigned to Phoenix first and later to Arrow. HSBC need to explain what has happened with these payments.

Arrow - and hence Rockwell - will almost certainly be unaware of these payments but I doubt that will render the account in dispute as such since it is nothing to do with them. Or do you disagree, C B ?

 

Hmm, if the OP is paying to one company and has not been informed the accoutn has been assigned and should be paying another, then I think there is cause for dispute.

 

On top of which, it would appear no statements have been provided by Met Collect. Even if they were to send them say 4 - 6 times a year, it is a legal requirement that they are sent. Again reason to dispute.

[fletch70]

The payments going on for so long could just be because the debt was high and the payments low. I certainly was paying debts off from the mid 90's up until 2 years ago.

 

Is it possible that the payment arrangements were to stay the same after the assignments hence no NOA needed to be sent . I would certainly agree that you need to get onto MCS and find out what is going on , where your money is going etc.

 

A question is, has the balance you owe been going down in the various letters you have received or has it stayed the same

 

Has there ever been a CCJ on this?

[wilbyhilby]

The payments were low due to my circumstances, I got them down to £5 per month and that's what we are still paying. The assignment letter totals bear no resemblance to what we calculate we have paid using the receipts we have, in fact they are very near the same totals as the original debt, (give or take a few pounds).

 

There has never been a CCJ on this.

 

What I don't understand is how can HSBC/MCS still take money from me when allegedly they sold/assigned the debt to someone else.

 

Surely somewhere along the line one of the many DCAs/Solicitors involved should have some sort of proof that I need to pay them instead of HSBC.

[fletch70]

I have to say a formal complaint to MCS is needed followed by a SAR request if needed. You also need to be probably sar both phoenix and arrow .

[wilbyhilby]

I'm now totally confused, it looks as though the title of my thread has changed as I'm getting replies to "Arrow now got merged Midland bank debt from 1997" whereas I posted " Arrow Global and Rockwell Threat Letters - Need Help Please" are these the same or am I getting muddled with two threads.

[dx100uk]

it was changed to better reflect your issue

 

dx

[wilbyhilby]

Oh, thank you.

[fletch70]

Did you post two different threads ?

My guess is that one of the helpful mods have jumped in and changed something.

[fletch70]

Edit

[citizenB]

If this were me, I would be writing to HSBC with copies being sent to Met Collect and the "alleged" new owner of the debt.

 

Your letter needs to be a Formal Complaint and headed as such - it should be sent to HSBC's head/registered office and you should use a tracked post - either Recorded or Special Delivery for the HSBC letter, and obtain free proof of postings for the Met Collect and "alleged" new owner of the debt.

 

You should bullet point your letter and insist that they respond to each point. Which would appear to be....

 

On DATE - you defaulted on Account reference 12345678

On DATE - you entered into a Payment arrangement for the sum of £X.00 - the balance at that time was £XXXX.00

On DATE - you started to make payments to Met Collect and have continued to make payments to date.

 

On DATE - you received a letter from Arrow Global to say they have owned the account since 13/5/2011 by way of assignment.

You have never been advised of this previously.

 

The amount being requested has not reduced, despite your maintaining the payments to Met Collect since DATE, and Arrow Global are demanding that you pay the full amount that was due at the time of default and the start of your payment arrangement to Met Collect.

 

At no time have you received a statement from Met Collect to show how the balance of your accoutn has reduced. This is in breach of the regulations.

You can provide proof of all the payments you have made.

 

You would now like someone to advise the true balance of the account and to provide statements identifying the payments you have made and how they have been applied to the account.

 

You are confirming that this is a Formal Complaint, and if you have not received a satisfactory response within 4 weeks, then you will be escalating your complaint to the Ombudsman with copies to the Financial Conduct Authority.

 

Chances are, they wont respond for up to 8 weeks, which is industry standard and will be backed up by the FOS.. but it will put HSBC and supporting actors on notice that you are not prepared to sit back and let them mess you around.