What are YOUR opinions on 'shopping' someone?

[martindn]

Live and let live as far as im concerned, people in power do a lot worse for a lot more, look at the torys they are selling off the future off our children to there business chums and/or to benefit stocks they own. You would end up potentially ruining someones life, and for what? How does it benefit you and your family to save the state a bit of money? Im more concerned about Tax dodgers than benefit cheats.

[Marianne7]

No, I would never "shop" someone. I think I could say that with 99.9% certainly. The other 0.1% would be a very rare case.

 

When I was on benefits and really struggling, I was helped out with the odd £5 or £10 from friends/family ~ I know how much difference it made.

[kcspurs]

if you cant do good for someone then why do bad for them.

just let them get on with it.

[fletch70]

To be honest I do not think it is really about the odd £5 or £10.

 

At what point does it stop being acceptable, If someone is earning £100 pw cash in hand is that acceptable or if they have multiple benefit claims going on . Then there are a few who make very good livings and use benefits money as "pin" money. IMO the vast majority of benefit abusers hurt the entire system and make it harder for the people who should be getting benefits to actually get them.

[Marianne7]

The extreme cases would be my 0.1% that I would have to think about very hard and be absolutely sure that I knew for certain what was going on. In all other cases I would think of it along these lines: those with plenty of money are able to cheat the system in a variety of ways, people who don't have the strain of being on a low income, unemployed or living in unpleasant accommodation, and who have been given "responsible" positions in our society. And when they are found out, well, just employ a good lawyer, or simply pay back what you have taken ~ that's supposed to make it all OK.

 

£100 pw, cash in hand? Less than some people spend on lunch.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Marianne7
Mistake

[Jmulv]

Not a big deal if it is small amounts and if it is for essentials.

 

For example I couldn't heat my house in winter. Literally just could not afford it outright. It was horrible.... especially because my new house is not as well insulated.

 

If I could do a little cash work in winter like 30-40 a month just to pay for my heating? yeah I would and I don't blame anyone else if they would either. JSA just does not fully cover living costs.

 

But if you are earning too much then yeah that is a little wrong.

[Lilly_Monroe]

I cannot heat my house and unless I light the fire hot water is a no no.

How the heck do they arrive at such a pathetic figure to live on prices for everything have gone through the roof and yet there is NO allowance for that in benefit.

 

I am not saying benefits should be spread thickly, but there comes a point when genuine people are pushed to earn some cash under the counter, so to speak.

Not those who run numerous houses, and cheat the system at every angle, just those who need to put some food on the table and keep paying the bills.

[jackieandwayne]

"What goes around comes around". Everytime, in all cases, eventually.

[jackieandwayne]

No, I don't believe I would shop someone on merely my suspicion, or someone else's, not for this anyway. It is not my business, I do not know the full circumstances, and I am not prepared to be responsible for the misery that someone might have to go through because I have a "suspicion". Like I said, what goes around comes around.

 

 

I heard a line on a TV programme the other night - rep point for the first person to say which programme!

 

 

"That's not dormitory behaviour is it? Nobody likes a sneak."

 

 

Well, sneaks aren't nice are they?

[nicolee2931]

This in my opinion is a very difficult question to answer, but my thoughts are;

 

I wouldn't go out of my way to report someone for earning just a few quid who are only doing what they are doing just to make ends meet. For a start it's none of my business and secondly I don't think I could deal with the possible repercussions if that someone found out it was me who reported them.

 

I certainly wouldn't report someone who is disabled as not all disabilities are easily noticeable and the facts of the matter are not always known.

 

Its not my job to hunt, find and report benefit fraud. The DWP have the resources to dig into peoples private lives and check to see if folk are living beyond their current financial means. My life is complicated enough without having to deal with and become a DWP informant, like as I said earlier all I want is a peaceful life and I couldn't deal with the fallout and repercussions.

Edited May 6, 2014 by nicolee2931
Spelling mistake, third paragraph.

[jadeybags]

Ok, here's my opinion. I wouldn't judge someone shopping a person personally. If they have morals like that, who am I to criticise.

On the other hand I see no harm in someone claiming JSA for example, looking for full time work & getting a tenner a week scrubbing some toffs bog in the meantime.

I grew up with a family member that did it, cleaned a doctors house once a week, so yes, I guess I had a bad influence in my life. But people do what they can. Back in those days single mums couldn't work full time minimum wage & have children, working tax credit didn't exist to top up wages. You worked, or you didn't, I don't think there was any inbetween.. top up stuff you could claim?

So you did what you could to get by!

And I think the way the government is strangling the life out of the poor lately, they should do what they have to do as well.

[Katelyn25]

I would never be able to shop someone. Having being falsely reported myself and was able to prove the reporter wrong, I know how nasty it can be.

 

However, having problems myself with waiting for pip results and going thro mand recon for my esa with NO income at the mo (I have amazing kids who are helping us at the mo)...and knowing that someone in the next street who I known very well for years, bragging how she duped the dla and esa assessments with help from her kids, claims all housing benefits etc and doesnt declare her partner living with her who is on full pay.....leaves me feeling sick!

 

So even tho I cannot bring myself to report someone, there are instances when I wish someone else would !!

[45002]

Sadly I agree. There is a thread from a couple of weeks ago which stretched to multiple pages of advice for someone who from the info they gave away is quite obviously committing fraud. I wasn't the first or only person to notice this, but my response to the thread was deleted!

 

At a time when the press are quite happy to push the "all claimants are thieving sc um & scroungers" angle, to see a board that I have always thought was meant to help genuine claimants then help someone to continue committing fraud was very disappointing.

 

 

If you are referring to threads on this forum, please will you link me to them. Thanks

 

Yes.

 

Problem was there was clearly Evidence that just a few people where quite obviously committing fraud and links where posted showing the evidence.

 

But sadly site team members Deleted this overwhelming evidence

 

 

and before you ask I don't know which site team member it was.

 

PM's where also sent to at least 8 site team member with all the evidence and links showing the fraud, but sadly Not one of the site team members replied to the PM's sent !

[BankFodder]

The site team would have removed any links or other material which appears to encourage or to facilitate fraud.

 

I do hope that this thread is something different - which is basically about people's own feelings about the issues involved - whether it is breaking the rules oneself or about giving information about others who may be breaking the law.

 

I think that the thread is a very useful discussion and importantly, so far it has been conducted in a very decent and reasonable - non-judgmental way.

[45002]

The site team would have removed any links or other material which appears to encourage or to facilitate fraud.

 

I do hope that this thread is something different - which is basically about people's own feelings about the issues involved - whether it is breaking the rules oneself or about giving information about others who may be breaking the law.

 

I think that the thread is a very useful discussion and importantly, so far it has been conducted in a very decent and reasonable - non-judgmental way.

 

The links that where removed, Clearly showed that the people who where posting where Not post the truth, saying one thing on one forum and posting some else on CAG

 

They slipped up because they where All using the same user name on different forums and in some cases just copy and paste onto different forums.

 

Google is a wonderfully search tool and im glad I took screenshots before the threads locked/posts/threads/links where deleted,including this thread !

[jabba jones]

The links that where removed, Clearly showed that the people who where posting where Not post the truth, saying one thing on one forum and posting some else on CAG

 

My deleted comment was a reply to 45002 stating that he/she should become an investigator. I'm still not sure why it was deleted.

 

To move on, I have had the (mis)fortune of attending several meetings regarding daily signing over the last 6 months. Interestingly one of the reasons mentioned for introducing it is to make it harder for people to work undeclared, cash in hand, whilst claiming benefit.

 

I know many on here would prefer to think its all to do with sanctions (that's what Universal Credit is for), however I find it ironic that some of the of the posters moaning about daily signing on this thread - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?423291-More-fun-for-us-JSA-Job-Seekers(1-Viewing)-nbsp are the very same people saying they don't see anything wrong with earning a bit on the side on this thread!

[tfp]

Would I 'shop' someone to the DWP? Well, If a friend, neighbour or relative, I'd have a word in their ear. Simply to warn them for their own protection. I would NOT inform the DWP. Why? Well, the DWP under Smith are perfectly happy to allow fraud within the WP, Univ. Jobmatch and tens of £million already written off due to the shambles that is the embryonic Univ. Credit.

 

 

And then we see Justice Secretary Grayling shedding crocodile tears over fraud committed by Serco and G4s over their tagging of offenders. They tagged prisoners who were deceased and in some instances, charging the government continued for a period of many months and even years after active monitoring had ceased. G4s and Serco made financial reparations. However, the government still hands both these firms lucrative contracts.

 

 

So whilst few hear would actively condone fraud, it's telling that we have a government (and indeed previous administrations) that condones and even encourages fraudulent behaviour within its departments and the contracts it signs up to.

[antone]

With regard to deletion of posts, there is a standard procedure to follow if you believe that CAG's decision is wrong. Firstly, you must send a PM to the moderators, asking for a "Mandatory Reconsideration" of the decision to delete your post. If we agree that the decision was wrong, your post will be reinstated. If we do not agree, you will be sent form SSC1 explaining our reasons. You must then contact the independent tribunal with a copy of that form and a letter stating "I wish to appeal your decision of dd/mm/yyyy to delete my post, because..." and then give at least basic reasons why you think your post should be reinstated.

 

Ah, OK, sorry about that - I couldn't resist. If one of your posts is deleted on the Benefits Forum, there's at least a reasonable chance that it was me who did so. I'm human, I make mistakes, occasionally miss something important and I have no problem correcting those mistakes. So if you feel that something was wrong, just PM me. I will look at it. Feel free to copy in the other BF regular mods as well, but don't scattergun your PM to every mod whose name springs to mind.

 

So, the topic. Well, to me there's a difference between saying something like "I think it's morally OK for people to earn a few quid on the side" and "Here's how to earn a few quid on the side without the DWP finding out about it." There first is simply expressing a personal view, the second is advising people on how to do something illegal.

 

Personally, I don't think it's OK to earn a few quid on the side, but I can't think of many circumstances where I'd actually shop someone for it. If anyone came to me and told me they were doing it, I suppose I'd advise them to stop immediately and declare what they've done to the DWP/LA/HMRC since it's likely they will get caught eventually and their life will be a lot easier if they deal with the matter sooner rather than later.

[LifeIsAMess]

I say leave it up to DWP/LA with all their fancy data matching tools, hidden cameras and special powers etc to find the fraudsters!

 

You never really know the true circumstances of someone. Some people may not like to admit they are on benefits so might say they are working in passing conversation etc. I'm sure we've all came across this before and more.

 

False accusations ruin lives. I won my appeal for alleged fraud nearly a year ago now and I'm still not over it and never will be!

[fletch70]

Hi before going back on topic I would say that I have , at times received PM's from site team explaining why a post was edited or removed . Much of that I suspect is down to the personal views of the particular site team member but also just pure time restrictions on such a large site.

 

On the subject of daily signing, isn't this only aimed at long term unemployed which in a number of cases are the hard core won't work brigade . I do not agree with making all long term unemployed working for what is effectively 1/3rd of the minimum wage however there will be some people who would benefit from the structure and discipline of a regular routine .

 

Overall I am of the opinion that it is unacceptable to regularly work on the side and those that do it actually make it harder for everyone because it is good politics to go after the benefit cheats regardless of political persuasion. I get rather tired of people saying it is only rich Tories who talk like this. many many died in the wool socialists also find it morally wrong. When and if I would actually shop someone however is open to question . An example I know someone who on a good day you could easily say doesn't deserve benefits and then you don't see him for a few days because he can hardly stand let alone walk.

[*RainbowTears*]

I have never actually "shopped" anyone, as I always looked at it this way; It doesn't involve me, nor does it affect me & it's simply not my business!!

 

As none of us truly knows what exactly goes on behind a neighbours/friends etc closed doors!

 

Over the years I've heard "gossip" about "this & that" so & so claiming benefits fraudently, as I'm sure we all have to some degree!

 

I've also (through a friend who got caught few years ago) seen the effect it had on her & her family, as my friend went through the fraud investigation & subsequent Court action.

 

And which reaffirmed my "not shopping anyone"...

 

Then a few months ago, this came to light;

 

Mrs X whose on ESA & who also claims HB, CT for their 2 bed Council flat as a single person.

 

Nothing wrong with this so far!

 

BUT this Mrs X is not single (as she got back with her Ex husband & he moved in with her 5 years ago) & they have been living together in the Council flat since then. So the Council are NOT aware he is there or that he works full time & has done so for years.

 

A few months ago, they both moved from the 2 bed flat into Mrs X, MIL (mother in law) 3 bed Council house. As she is ill.

 

And she has NOT given up the 2 bed council flat as her top up rent isn't much, so the 2 bed flat lies empty (well its got bare essentials in case the Council call round) & HB & CT benefits continue to pay for it!

 

Mrs X has no intentions of telling the Council anything, so she continues to get all her benefits paid, as though she's a single person living in a 2 bed council flat.....

 

*So what would you do? Where is the line between fraud cases you wouldn't report to those you would report be drawn?

[Marianne7]

No, I still wouldn't. Doesn't the same apply here as many have been saying all the way through this thread? We don't know exactly what is going on in any situation. Do you know precisely each benefit that Mrs X gets?

 

If Mrs X talks openly to all about her "spare" council flat, her husband having been back with her for 5 years and all the benefit she's been receiving, it won't belong I'm sure before the council get to hear something.

 

But it wouldn't be from me.

[essexmat]

I have purposely stayed away from this thread as I have my own opinions but do not want to inflate anything but glad it has stayed civil so please do carry on, interesting reading!

[fletch70]

Just a few questions to ponder on

 

a) You see a shoplifter stealing from a shop, do you do anything?

b) You see someone breaking into a house that you know is not theirs, what do you do?

c) You see a frail elderly person being mugged, do you intervene or do anything

d) You witness a murder, do you come forward as an eye witness?

 

For someone who says benefit cheats are non of their business then surely the answer to all of the above should be no or are they setting themselves up as judge and jury?

To be perfectly honest for me a depends the rest are yes.

The situation described above about the empty flat and the fraud, yes I think I would as not only is it money from the public purse but also someone else is being deprived of a home

[essexmat]

a) You see a shoplifter stealing from a shop, do you do anything?

Nothing to do with me, wouldn't want the hassle of being a witness, police involvement, court as a witness etc

b) You see someone breaking into a house that you know is not theirs, what do you do?

Call the police and if possible from a safe distance use camera on phone to get proof but again may involve court etc

c) You see a frail elderly person being mugged, do you intervene or do anything

Yes, attacks against person are far worse than against property or stock items - this attack could kill and my instinct as someone who is trained in martial arts would be to apprehend the person and if they went for me physically or with a weapon I would probably end up on an assault charge myself for protecting myself

d) You witness a murder, do you come forward as an eye witness?

Again, it would involve court as a witness and as the crime was so serious and is someones mum, dad, son, daughter etc then I would want justice served so probably would come forwardLike most things though, until a person is in a situation they don't know how they will react. The only reaction I know I would have is if someone attacked my family - I would probably do time for that