Jump to content


Penalty Fare for not having rail card when passing through barriers - appeal.


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 2612 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

I lost my rail card last Thursday, traveled yesterday using a ticket I had booked in advance in March, with a young persons rail card discount. Naively didn't realise that I would be committing an offence travelling since I do genuinely have a rail card and was in possession of a physical copy it when I purchased the tickets. Silly me, wont be something I will be doing again :sad:

 

I am appealing it, as I thought I may as well have a go. A £52 penalty fare over £1.70 just seems ridiculous - who would deliberately try and defraud the system out of £1.70?!:???:

 

Would anyone mind giving me some feedback on my appeal letter, I have never written anything like this before.

 

Please and thank you! :-D

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Reference: SR ######

 

I am writing in reference to the penalty fare I received on the 15/04/2014, at London Victoria train station for the sum of £51.60. Having travelled on the 15:49 service from Brighton to London Victoria.

 

I was issued with the aforementioned penalty fare upon completion of my journey from Brighton to London Victoria by a ticket inspector whilst passing through the barriers. Although I did have a ticket for the journey mentioned, I was unable to produce my Young Persons railcard which had allowed me to get a 1/3 discount off of the ticket which I had booked in advance; paying £3.30 instead of the full fare of £5. I was unable to produce my railcard as on 10/04/2014 I lost my purse – all my personal cards, rail card included. This was then reported to the police on 11/04/2014; reference number ########. This coincided with a very stressful time for me, the end of my University term, meaning that I had to balance the demands of University hand deadlines with the replacement of all my banking/identity/university cards which were lost in my purse. Unfortunately, I overlooked the fact that the train ticket which had been booked in advance on 23/03/2014 had to be used alongside a physical copy of my railcard. As this was my first experience of losing my railcard I, perhaps naively, did not realise that it would be an offence to travel without my rail card on my persons as I had purchased the rail card in January this year and had been in possession of it in March when I purchased the advanced ticket.

 

As a University student I have regular financial struggles and already face a high bill having lost my purse, having to replace my driving license, identity cards and University cards. Currently, my penalty fare has been paid at the station by my boyfriend, Mr ##### #####, as I was unable to do so. I now realise that I made a mistake in going ahead and using the ticket booked in advance, but at the time I was unaware. I fully understand that there is a need for the penalty fare system to punish and deter those who defraud the system; but this is not me. I have already ordered a replacement rail card ready to book my return journey back to Brighton when university commences again in May.

 

I have included as evidence copies of: the penalty fare notice; receipt for the payment of the penalty; police reference number card; screen shot of my rail card account; screen shot showing I have reported my rail card lost and ordered another; and finally, the receipt for the tickets I purchased on the 23/03 along with my boyfriend’s ticket, as my ticket was retained by the ticket inspector.

 

I ask that you take the information into consideration and reconsider the penalty fare.

 

Yours sincerely,

Link to post
Share on other sites

Reads well to me, and while no harm in asking them to reconsider PF, my understanding from looking into other PF situations is that the rule re having to actually have original RC in your possession is strictly enforced, so I doubt you will get anywhere. Often best to put PFs down to experience and try to forget.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been issued a couple of Penalty fares when Ive forgot to take my Annual Season ticket photo card but these were refunded by the TOC (C2C), maybe they are a bit more lenient as the annual pass was £3000 plus and perhaps if there were to not refund the penalty fare customers would be rather annoyed and perhaps even switch train lines (Greater Anglia) run a similar service to London.

 

No idea whether youll get a result with your letter, TOCs work in mysterious ways and are rather inconsistent.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you very much for your reply! Ah, I will have a look on the website you mentioned.

 

I am just so annoyed at myself, it didn't even cross my mind until the inspector asked me to present my rail card, as no one had ever asked before. But, thanks again! :)

Link to post
Share on other sites
I have been issued a couple of Penalty fares when Ive forgot to take my Annual Season ticket photo card but these were refunded by the TOC (C2C), maybe they are a bit more lenient as the annual pass was £3000 plus and perhaps if there were to not refund the penalty fare customers would be rather annoyed and perhaps even switch train lines (Greater Anglia) run a similar service to London.

 

No idea whether youll get a result with your letter, TOCs work in mysterious ways and are rather inconsistent.

 

Ah, yeah see they wouldn't really be losing out much on me - I pay £6.60 in total for trips home from university once every couple of months. Hopefully they appreciate that I wasn't intending to commit an offence, though they probably wont :(.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Was your entire journey Brighton to Vic? If so my calculation is that the correct penalty fare is £49.40, the standard anytime single Brighton to Vic being £24.70.

 

PFs for the wrong amount are automatically invalid and appeals against them should succeed. Therefore you might have more luck if in your appeal you simply say that PF is for the wrong amount, and therefore is not valid.

Link to post
Share on other sites
You can tell I am new to this can't you :roll: - sorry for the repeated posts!

 

Hi Rebecca. I've just removed another one. If you can't see what you just posted, try hitting the Refresh button on your browser. :)

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The rules about lost/forgotten season tickets are different to lost/forgotten railcards. PFs for lost seasons are refunded twice in any 12m period, but rule is that PF for no RC is valid even if RC subsequently produced. Still think appeal on basis PF was invalid as for wrong amount is your best bet

Link to post
Share on other sites
The rules about lost/forgotten season tickets are different to lost/forgotten railcards. PFs for lost seasons are refunded twice in any 12m period, but rule is that PF for no RC is valid even if RC subsequently produced. Still think appeal on basis PF was invalid as for wrong amount is your best bet

 

Sorry I meant that I had my Season ticket but not the accompanying Photo card. I recall it happened twice and on both occasions they refunded the PF I was charged but bear in mind Id forked out £3k+ for a number of years.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Was your entire journey Brighton to Vic? If so my calculation is that the correct penalty fare is £49.40, the standard anytime single Brighton to Vic being £24.70.

 

PFs for the wrong amount are automatically invalid and appeals against them should succeed. Therefore you might have more luck if in your appeal you simply say that PF is for the wrong amount, and therefore is not valid.

 

Yes that was my entire journey, I didn't know that/hadn't thought to look into it. Thank you! I will change my appeal then, as you are probably correct about me having more luck basing it on that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
The rules about lost/forgotten season tickets are different to lost/forgotten railcards. PFs for lost seasons are refunded twice in any 12m period, but rule is that PF for no RC is valid even if RC subsequently produced. Still think appeal on basis PF was invalid as for wrong amount is your best bet

 

Just called national rail to double check and it appears an any time day single does cost £25.60 not the £24.70 which is advertised online. I will just have to have a go with my original appeal and try for a few extra hours at work. Thank goodness for interest free student over drafts eh?! :-(

Link to post
Share on other sites

That's odd, I checked on brfares.com which us usually very reliable but does seem an odd mistake so perhaps they did get it right.

 

You can of course appeal on both grounds, but doesn't look too hopeful. Good luck anyway

Link to post
Share on other sites
That's odd, I checked on brfares.com which us usually very reliable but does seem an odd mistake so perhaps they did get it right.

 

You can of course appeal on both grounds, but doesn't look too hopeful. Good luck anyway

 

Appeal will be declined by the assessor as it is mandatory to carry your railcard for all journeys made. The independent assessor has to refuse the appeal purely to remain consistent when dealing with the many other thousands of appeals for similar breaches.

 

The correct Penalty Fare amount should be £51.60 (2 x £25.80)

brfares.com correctly shows that fare.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to agree with firstclassx on this matter. The terms & conditions relating to the 16-25 Young Person Railcard are accepted when applying to purchase that Railcard.

 

Condition 6 is unequivocal and reads as follows:

 

You must carry your Railcard with you on your journey and when asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard. If you fail to do so, you will be required to pay the full price Standard Single fare for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting the journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare.

 

Your appeal is most likely to be declined and the penalty fare will be upheld.

The purpose of the PF system is not to punish deliberate acts of travelling without valid tickets, that is dealt with by prosecution, the PF is designed to deal with mistakes such as this and to deter opportunism. The appeals service can only look at what actually happened. You held a discounted ticket, you knew that you must present the Railcard with that ticket, but having lost the Railcard you still went ahead and used the ticket without taking any action to validate it beforehand.

 

If the list of items lost and reported to Police specifically included the Railcard and if you can get a copy of that schedule with the Log reference there is a very remote chance that they might allow you to pay the full single fare, but I do think that is pretty unlikely though would be happy to be proved wrong.

Link to post
Share on other sites

On the right fare, the difference is that Brighton to London Terminals (i.e. valid also to London Bridge, Cannon Street etc as well as Victoria) is £25.80, while Brighton to Victoria has the slightly lower fare.

 

I think they are entitled to base PF on the higher one, but will check that

Link to post
Share on other sites

Tricky one this, seems opinions differ as to whether they can validly charge the London Terminals fare. Seems that fact the RC tic u held was valid only for a journey to Vic supports argument that PF should be calculated on basis of fare to Vic.

 

If it were me I would say something like

 

'i am appealing this penalty fare as, per my railcard discounted advance ticket that I held when I received the PF, my journey was Brighton to London Victoria. The single fare for this journey is £24.70 and the correct PF is therefore £49.40. The penalty fare I received was for the wrong amount as is therefore invalid'

 

There are arguments to suggest London Terminals fare can be charged, and I suspect appeal will be rejected, but no harm in appealing on this basis

Link to post
Share on other sites
Tricky one this, seems opinions differ as to whether they can validly charge the London Terminals fare. Seems that fact the RC tic u held was valid only for a journey to Vic supports argument that PF should be calculated on basis of fare to Vic.

 

If it were me I would say something like

 

'i am appealing this penalty fare as, per my railcard discounted advance ticket that I held when I received the PF, my journey was Brighton to London Victoria. The single fare for this journey is £24.70 and the correct PF is therefore £49.40. The penalty fare I received was for the wrong amount as is therefore invalid'

 

There are arguments to suggest London Terminals fare can be charged, and I suspect appeal will be rejected, but no harm in appealing on this basis

 

Hello there. I would be interested to know what our rail guys think about your suggestion. I may be reading too much into what you've said and the words 'wrong' and 'correct'. The approach normally suggested is not to suggest that the rail company or its employee is in the wrong, as in the past it seems to have produced an inclination not to agree, if you see what I mean.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

It is permitted for the higher of these two fares to be used as the basis for calculating a penalty fare

 

National Rail Conditions of Carriage defines the term "full single fare " as "the highest priced single fare for the journey you are making".

 

To go back to the extract from the T&Cs relating to a failure to produce a valid Railcard with your ticket "...you will be required to pay the full price Standard Single fare for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting the journey."

Where the journey may be made using more than one TOC services or different routes, the full standard single fare is that allowing travel by either route or company.

 

Where a Penalty Fare is appropriate the company may therefore use that single fare as the basis.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, that is the argument as to why the higher fare is applicable. Here though we are not talking about different route or train cos. The original tic was valid Brighton to Victoria only not any other London Terminal, also as PF was issued at Vic was no opportunity to travel to any other London Terminal.

 

As to how you pitch this, agree it is a matter of taste, personally I think best to be brief and direct.

 

Btw overall I doubt this appeal will be successful, but as I say if was me I would appeal on the amount based on the Vic/London Terminals fare difference

Link to post
Share on other sites

To elaborate slightly the reason why strict application of highest single fare rule may not be appropriate in all cases is that it can give rise to perverse outcomes which cannot be intended. E.g. allowing PF based on the HS1 fare for journeys from Kent not on HS1, or charging via London fares for journeys not being made via London, or allowing charging an Any Permitted fare with no train company restriction, where an Anytime single on TOC concerned would work fine to have the deterrent effect PF is intended to, e.g. on London Midland / Virgin London to West Mids

 

So in my view this point is not necessarily fully addressed by the Conds of Carriage wording

Link to post
Share on other sites
Btw overall I doubt this appeal will be successful, but as I say if was me I would appeal on the amount based on the Vic/London Terminals fare difference

 

 

 

 

The starting point for the assessor is going to be that pertaining to the failure to show a valid Railcard, this will be treated as if no ticket were held as per R/C condition 6. Thence the assessment will likely be that the higher fare applies.

 

Having been involved since 'day one' of BR Penalty Fares (1989) I have seen similar cases previously, it is possible that they will amend the fare, but unlikely in my view

 

I agree, the appeal is unlikely to succeed, but that should not stop the OP from trying.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...