Littlewoods refund issue on television ***Resolved***

[chrissmeuk]

Hi,

 

 

My wife purchased a television on her Littlewoods account in November 2013. Was only turned on for the first time at the start of Jan. The thing has been terribly unreliable so far as it stands with constant crashing playing media. A couple of days ago the DVD transport failed as well. I did some googling and it turns out this Toshiba unit is substandard and this is a common problem. I'm a qualified electronics engineer and it's a combination of unresolvable software problems (this has the latest firmware) and low grade hardware (the transport). The software problem gets no attention from the manufacturer and the hardware problem is likely to occur again if it has failed in that short window.

 

 

So she phoned littlewoods and asked for a refund. They said no, we have a policy of repair, replace, refund in that order. I was passed the phone and got some narky individual on the end of it who clearly doesn't understand the difference between an unresolvable fault in the design versus a simple repair and is employed to lie to people to get them to go away. They forwarded me by phone to their repair company who have subcontracted it out to a company which from experience has been near criminal (I know someone who worked for them) so I've told them to shove it with the repair.

 

 

I am aware of SOGA. AFAIK under section 14, these goods are defective and not of merchantable quality and any repair and replacement will exhibit the same problems and she's entitled to a refund.

 

 

What's the best approach to deal with this?

 

 

I've raised a complaint on her behalf. Do I need to go the legal route i.e. threaten small claims etc via recorded delivery or do you think they'll respond to this?

 

 

Big question as well. As she's already paying for this, should we withhold payment from the company until resolved (as per credit cards when you dispute transactions, they are held for a period of time).

 

 

I personally won't poke the company with a stick, preferring amazon who actually have a returns policy and deal with this sort of stuff instantly. Unfortunately this was actually cheaper than Amazon for once as it was on a "get rid of our crappy products quick" day.

[porkyp1g]

I don't see how you can be sure another of the same set will have the same issues. Just because it's a common fault, doesn't mean it will be the same with another set. You might have to take a repair or replacement before you get to invoke that clause.

 

I am not sure on withholding payment. I wouldn't personally as it could slow getting this matter resolved.

[chrissmeuk]

Well considering other people have reported feedback on Amazon (and littlewoods) reviews/feedback with the same issue, the primary issue is a software fault, the software version will be the same on both units ergo the units will behave the same. This is a typical low quality engineering job.

 

 

The DVD transport failure is a mechanical failure. The MTBF of a DVD transport is in the order of thousands of hours. It's been used for less than 10 hours in total. That suggests either:

 

 

1. I have a statistically early failure on the bell curve of failure probability. Unlikely - the probability of this is in the order of the 1 in 10000 mark. The amount of negative feedback regarding the units suggests this is not the case as well even if they shipped 1 million units (which is unlikely)

 

 

2. The unit is faulty by design and the MTBF is considerably lower. The transport SKU will be replaced with the same unit which will exhibit the same problem. These products aren't designed with fungible parts so they'll be step-locked into a certain transport and firmware level.

 

 

I'm considering the case where they think that repair is the best solution, it fails after 4 months again, they repair it again, it fails 5 months later which is outside the standard warranty (1 year) which means I have to get the big guns out to enforce the EU 2 year statutory or the 6 years fit for purpose. In that time I've had no television for approximately 4 months which means it's not fit for purpose and not of merchantable quality. Hypothetical but likely and observable in low end consumer electronics.

 

 

Note: I spent a good number of years designing and prototyping electronic equipment for the defence industry so this is an engineering assessment, not a naïve consumer one (no offense intended).

 

 

Agree with withholding payment. I will ensure she does not do that.

[renegadeimp]

Soga is to be used here. However they can give a repair or replace here. If you can prove its a manufacturer fault then you are more likely to get a full refund. Although you may have to issue a formal complaint or get trading standards involved.

[chrissmeuk]

Soga is to be used here. However they can give a repair or replace here. If you can prove its a manufacturer fault then you are more likely to get a full refund. Although you may have to issue a formal complaint or get trading standards involved.

 

Thanks. I'm going to try and force a refund first as I really don't want to deal with the hassle at the moment over the space of a year or so.

 

 

In this circumstance, the catalogue company buyers imported some substandard junk which isn't fit for purpose so I'm not willing to take a repair option.

[silverfox1961]

Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

I do agree with not withholding payment as this can cause a myriad of problems down the line.

 

As you are acting for your wife, did you get her written permission first? This needs to be sent to Litlewoods at the same time as the FORMAL REJECTION. Once you have formally rejected the goods, this protects your interest if you decide to go to court.

 

In the meantime, why not let the CEO know what their minions are up to.

 

[email protected]

[chrissmeuk]

Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

I do agree with not withholding payment as this can cause a myriad of problems down the line.

 

As you are acting for your wife, did you get her written permission first? This needs to be sent to Litlewoods at the same time as the FORMAL REJECTION. Once you have formally rejected the goods, this protects your interest if you decide to go to court.

 

In the meantime, why not let the CEO know what their minions are up to.

 

 

 

 

I'm doing the written correspondence on her behalf. On the phone she's handed over to me on agreement of the call centre monkey. All conversations have been recorded in and out of our house and the person notified (SIP hub FTW). Is there a template for a formal rejection anywhere - never written one of them (plenty of other letters)?

 

 

Thanks for the CEO's address. Will drop an email about that if I don't get anything back from the aforementioned minions.

 

 

I'm going to post the whole thing on my web site with correspondence as well in due course.

[rebel11]

Hi chrissmeuk

 

How did she pay for it?

 

If she paid by Credit Card and you can prove there is an inherent fault with the TV, contact your card provider to ask to do a Section 75. The card provider won't be thrilled and you will need to push them. You will need to show that there is an inherent fault with the tv, take snapshot of posts by other consumers on the same fault. Also any emails from Littlewoods once you've asked for a refund and put the inherent fault to them.

 

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act

[chrissmeuk]

Hi chrissmeuk

 

How did she pay for it?

 

If she paid by Credit Card and you can prove there is an inherent fault with the TV, contact your card provider to ask to do a Section 75. The card provider won't be thrilled and you will need to push them. You will need to show that there is an inherent fault with the tv, take snapshot of posts by other consumers on the same fault. Also any emails from Littlewoods once you've asked for a refund and put the inherent fault to them.

 

 

 

 

It's a credit account i.e. spread payments, interest up front (in the up front price that is). It is paid off monthly. Not sure where she stands there.

 

 

Not sure if this is covered under the CCA though

[rebel11]

Second paragraph down. Remember Littlewoods probably won't know what your talking about, it's finding someone in Littlewoods who does. There templates in the Which? link.

 

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/section75-protect-your-purchases#when

 

It's a credit account i.e. spread payments, interest up front (in the up front price that is). It is paid off monthly. Not sure where she stands there.

 

 

Not sure if this is covered under the CCA though

[chrissmeuk]

So update. Not a sausage so far.

 

Decided to do this in writing only as as far as I can tell the call centre staff are trained to be as evasive as possible. If this was the US, I'd expect them to be on commission for how many people they get to go away.

 

Have forwarded the complaint to:

 

Alex Baldock - Shop Direct CEO

Tony Druce - Shop Direct Head of Electrical Buying

 

Will see where I get. I've given them to 21st of May and will send out a 14 day summons warning after that.

 

If silence after that, small claims. Won a couple of small claims cases before so know the ropes

[rebel11]

Let us know what happens.

[chrissmeuk]

Interesting. Someone just turned up at my door to collect the television to take it for "repair". I've turned them away with an instruction that the account is in dispute and that I don't want it repaired but refunded as it's not fit for purpose.

 

I've purchased another unit (Sony this time!) at the cost of £319 from Amazon.

 

Worst case this is a £207 write-off for me so not a big deal but very irritating.

[chrissmeuk]

Got boilerplate reply from "Executive Complaints" saying they'll look into it.

[chrissmeuk]

More junk back from them. Outline:

 

1. Supposedly tried to contact by telephone (no missed calls). I requested that they keep everything in writing.

 

2. Agreed to fulfil their statutory obligations under SOGA (a statement!!!)

 

3. They will contact the supplier for a collection then will replace or repair or refund in that order. (here we go again - obviously not familiar with 2 above).

 

4. If there is nothing wrong they will charge a 45.00 inspection fee.

 

Cretinous!

 

My reply is basically: No chance. Refund now. Formal rejection of goods. Quotation of SOGA S18 (fit for purpose) and 48B (6 month return window) with sarcastic comment about point 2 above. Still going to small claims if not resolved within the correct time window. Will recover any issued fees via small claims too.

 

Now they don't know my history. My nickname in the office is "the grinder". I made people at Microsoft support cry and they're not even half as helpful

[rebel11]

Hi chrissmeuk

 

You also have the option to go to the FOS when you've received a Final Response from Littlewoods.

[chrissmeuk]

Tried them before - was a waste of time. Big guns or no guns. It's worth it for the principles and the fact that you can publish the outcome legally on the Internet for everyone to see.

[chrissmeuk]

Victory. Cash refunded and they picked it up themselves rather than the distributor. Persistent badgering and reminding of the law does the trick. Also I set a deadline after which I was going to small claims and reminded them of that every couple of days.

[rebel11]

Well Done.

[silverfox1961]

Agreed, well done. Lots of people would give in when they see the amount of work that needs to be put into matters such as yours.

 

Perseverance pays.

[citizenB]

Pleased to hear this was finally resolved