Roxburghe / NGP 'Fine' Advice

[jooshy87]

Hi guys, advice on a fine from the famous NGP / Roxburghe crew please.

 

I have had some dealings with these in the past,

 

NGP have tried to fine me 3/4 down the years which i have either ignored or complained about

- one of which was on a company private parking owned by my best friend!

 

He told me he had no idea who they were which i relayed back to them and it went away.

 

Another time i was parked somewhere for about 20 minutes and had a photo fine through,

 

i asked them to date stamp these and they again it went away.

 

And another occasion I knew i was playing away some 30 miles away in a football match!

 

The last correspondence for any of this was me writing them an email on 17/03/13

kicking off about all of the attempts above and asked for significant proof. I never had a reply.

 

However one of these has come back to me today via post.

 

Roxburghe have issued me a letter stating i owe a fine of £160 for an over exceeded stay.

 

They have not provided me with any other details than the PCN Number and date of offence - 07/09/13.

 

How do I move forward with this as i'm sick of these attempts to try and con me out of money?

 

Thanks guys!

[dx100uk]

are these PENALTY charge Notices

 

or PARKING charge notices

 

I suspect the latter?

 

dx

[jooshy87]

Yeah, its Parking Charge Notice

[havinastella]

Yeah, its Parking Charge Notice

 

It's NOT a fine then.

[jooshy87]

Thought as much, as previously id just ignore or challenge them. But other people not so savy have said to pay up they have a right to charge you etc. Even if they did the fee is not justifiable! so what do i do?

[havinastella]

As these are 'historic' I would continue to ignore everything except Court papers.

[jooshy87]

OK will do i have no record of the apparent fine being sent, and all paperwork sent to me has been sent standard post so everything would be deniable anyway.

[dx100uk]

fine?

 

theres that word again....

 

dx

[jooshy87]

Haha I said 'apparent'

[ericsbrother]

They are rentathreats and usually this is the end of the line for the company hoping you will pay up. As these probably date from pre-Oct 2012 then they can be ignored completely.

[jooshy87]

Received another letter whilst i was away on holidays threatening small courts action with a breakdown of charges. See attached, can any one advise if this is still to be ignored?

[dx100uk]

you need to convert to PDF

 

dx

[dx100uk]

and REMOVED THE POST BARCODE first!

 

dx

[jooshy87]

attached

[renegadeimp]

If, might, could, maybe etc etc

[havinastella]

I'd continue to ignore everything EXCEPT Court papers.

[dx100uk]

erm...you've left your name on it...

 

 

unapproved

 

dx

[jooshy87]

Just picked up on that, thanks!

Surely it won't go that far, they've not provided any proof i was at said location for said amount of time, or ever sent anything to me recorded delivery etc so is impossible to hold up in court any in my opinion.

[SabreSheep]

Just a question

 

Lots of "Charges" there

 

Is this your vehical or as someone cloaned your plate?

[jooshy87]

Well apparently it's my vehicle as it's up the road. However if I can remember rightly all I was ever sent was a screenshot of my car being parked there.

No way of proving it was ever there for over the said amount of time and I highly doubt I would of been as it's a couple of banks and a filco. Plus no evidence I've received the previous letters from them.

[ericsbrother]

you can ignore all debt collectors, whatever they may say they have no rights to do anything. As for NGP, well, if they want some money then they will have has to follow certain protocols and the burden of proof lies with them. Dont bother relpying to Roxburghe otherwise they think you are interested in paying up, whatever you say.

[Meldrew]

Jooshy,

You’ve probably spotted from elsewhere in these forums that Roxburghe’s payment demand is not a “fine” or anything like it; it’s just a request for payment, with no more legal status than a begging letter. However, current CAB advice is not to ignore it but instead write explaining that you will not pay the amount demanded as it is disproportionate, and, if appropriate, offer a “reasonable” amount as damages for breach of contract (i.e overstaying the paid period).

In law the amount claimed is meant to represent “liquidated and ascertained damages”, which should be a genuine pre-estimate of the likely costs incurred arising directly from a potential breach of contract. The pre-estimate should be sufficient to restore the car park owner to the same financial position as though the breach had not occurred. For overstaying, this would be the amount you should have paid for the excess period. If the amount claimed exceeds a reasonable pre-estimate of loss it is regarded as a penalty, which is unenforceable.

For instance, assuming the parking area had sufficiently legible & visible signage specifying the normal parking charge, and the charge was £2 per hour, then if you overstayed (say) 20 mins, then a reasonable offer would be £2.00 x 20/60 = 67p. If they disagree with your offer you can ask for full details - including bills & receipts - of all additional costs actually incurred by the land owner resulting directly from your car remaining beyond the paid time.

Gladstones’ (almost illegible) letter in post #11 seems to include a list of charges. These are all spurious. A “charge” or “fee” or “allowance” is not a cost. Such charges etc are usually unprovable and wildly disproportionate to any possible actual cost that could be incurred, so are regarded in common law as penalties and therefore unenforceable (Hadley v Baxendale, 1854 et seq); see also Judge Harris’s reasoning in “A Retailer v Ms B and Ms K”, Oxford County Court, 9 May 2012, relating to “apportioned charges” (that case dealt with a shop’s alleged “costs” demanded from shoplifters, but the principles are identical - the claimant must prove his loss).

They will probably ignore your offer, but you will have a good defence if the matter ever gets to court - which is most unlikely. Don’t get drawn into a correspondence war; if they do issue a county court claim just repeat the offer.

“Nil illegitimi carborundum”.

 

 

Good luck - tell us how you got on.