Cafcass and grandparents rights

[Desperate Daniella]

Yes. Get there early and ask to see one.

 

They should give advice and may represent you at the Hearing. To a certain extent it depends on how many are on duty and what else they are doing.

[staci]

Ok well i will call them tomorrow and ask!

[sailor sam]

It states a further hearing for no longer than 30 minutes

 

Sounds like a directions hearing then. They will probably ask for statements and then list for a 'contested hearing' unless no agreement is made. A contested hearing will be around 4 hours and normally includes cross examination etc. That will no doubt be about 6 weeks away.

[sailor sam]

Would it be possible to take someone in the court room with me to speak for us as i get too emotional

 

Very much doubt it. Normally only your legal representative is allowed in and the parties themselves and of course, the CAFCASS reporter.

[sailor sam]

It is at a magistrates court and are there duty solicitors there? Do you have to pay?

 

Ah, magistrates court! The application would be far better being dealt with by the County Court as you deal with a qualified district judge rather than not-so qualified JP's. I doubt if a duty solicitor will deal with a non-criminal matter.

You should of sourced a family solicitor who would of givne you an initial free consultation. However, they would only tell you what i'm telling you.

[sailor sam]

What is the difference between this hearing and a full hearing?

 

A directions hearing is normally dealt with by a clerk who will decide what needs to be done next. This normally only lasts 20 minutes. For a CAFCASS to be involved, one of these would of taken place already. A full (or contested hearing) is when decisions/orders are made and when both parties get the opportunity to question each other (cross examination) and provide reasons why (or why not) the application should (or not) be granted. Normally you have barristers to represent you at a full hearing but that is unlikely these days due to legal funding being removed from such matters.

 

In my case(s), I was in and out of court over 20 times!

[sailor sam]

There are duty solicitors at Magistrates Courts. I think they will represent you on a first occasion without payment, but others will know more on that.

 

They normally only deal with criminal cases. If the OP wants a solicitor (which won't make much difference TBH), then he/she should try and speak to one tomorrow. First thing a solicitor new to the case will to ask for time to get acquainted with the case. BUT as I have mentioned before, the OP will not get any legal funding so a solicitor will be quite expensive.

 

I am going to be busy this afternoon but will come back later to advise further. But I have covered most of what will happen already!

[Desperate Daniella]

Ah, magistrates court! The application would be far better being dealt with by the County Court as you deal with a qualified district judge rather than not-so qualified JP's. I doubt if a duty solicitor will deal with a non-criminal matter.

You should of sourced a family solicitor who would of givne you an initial free consultation. However, they would only tell you what i'm telling you.

 

I wondered about this. Can staci ask for it to be dealt with at the County Court?

[Desperate Daniella]

Staci,

 

There is a charity called Law Works which might help you. It's for people who can't afford legal help and don't qualify for legal aid.

 

www.lawworks.co.uk

 

See if they can get someone to help you.

 

DD

[staci]

Could i ask for it to be transferred to county court? Am i in my rights to do this? Also, can decisions be made tomorrow just on what the cafcass report states? Or should we be able to have our say? I would rather prepare a written statement, can i ask to do one if they dont request? Im sorry if i sound silly asking this but i honestly havent got a clue what to expect or do on tuesday!

[Desperate Daniella]

Wait for Sam to come back on transferring to the County Court.

 

If it is a Directions Hearing, as we think, decisions should not be made on Tuesday unless you agree to the contact which you do not intend to do. Therefore you are going to oppose it and a full Hearing will be required.

 

A Directions Hearing is to decide how the case will be managed and usually both sides will be told to prepare statements and the dates will be set down.

 

Do contact Law Works first thing tomorrow. It is a charity so it depends on who might be available in your area, but it is totally free so worth a call.

 

Please ask as many questions as you like.

[sailor sam]

You can apply to have the matter transferred but it would need a hearing in front of the mags to get it moved. Normally such a request would be made due to the 'complexes' in a case. You can indicate that you would like to request for the transfer at the directions hearing. You can also ask to make a statement of response to the CAFCASS report which will no doubt be asked for by the court anyway.

 

That answers those questions but I have to say that the OP hasn't really given any real reason that the court will want to hear for objecting point blank to the application. I'm sorry to say that from where i'm sitting it sounds like that there is a lot of animosity between the parties concerned (I know how it feels because that was the problem in my cases). But you will need more than that to convince any court (mags or County) that they should reject the application. I have outlined this previously in the thread and the dangers of using the child as a weapon. No court will look favourably on this tactic... trust me, I know because I was on the receiving end and it simply assisted my position. I therefore see little reason in asking for the case to be transferred, you would be far better reaching some form of agreement which your partner has some control over. If you don't do this (assuming we know the whole story here and that the applicant poses absolutely no risk to the child), then it is inevitable a contact order (probably in interim supervised order) will be made.

[Desperate Daniella]

It's clear that staci has no intention of allowing this woman to have any contact with her little boy even it means that they have to move many miles away.

 

I would think then that it would be best if staci's partner strongly opposed this application in a written statement and verbally on the basis that as a child he was abused by his mother who threw him out of the family home when he was just 13 years of age.

 

I personally would argue that there was no contact for many years and there will never be any relationship between staci's partner and his mother and therefore forcing contact will cause distress to staci, her partner and the little boy.

 

I can understand and appreciate the point that the child should not be used as a weapon but think this applies more to children who actually know the parties involved. This little boy doesn't know her, and his father who has been abused by her doesn't ever want him to know her.

 

This woman sounds like a nightmare and I would question her motives for trying to force contact with a child where she has no amicable relationship with either parent.

 

I'd also argue that as she was able to throw out her 13 year old son without a second thought she may well decide on a whim to end any relationship she may attempt to build with this little boy and this would be distressing.

 

Those are just my personal opinions of course and I'm not saying those arguments would work.

[sailor sam]

I understand what you are saying DD but the arguments about the break down of the relationship between the applicant and the Father of the child concerned will mostly be irrelevant to the court unless they can be convinced the applicant poses a potential threat to the child. There is no historical record of any physical abuse to put forward for a start. Also, as the section 7 report has already been published, that suggests that the process is already at an advanced stage. No doubt the Father (and possibly the OP) has already expressed their reasons to be against the application to CAFCASS. If CAFCASS were concerned, then the report would not favour the application.

 

We also have to consider the child's age. Yes, there has been no contact with the applicant as yet thus the child dosn't know her. BUT the child is only young so the court will no doubt be likely to order a restricted contact such as a supervised one on an interim basis. As I've already said; I doubt the applicant will get anything like what she is asking and from the information provided, the Father would be far better proposing (to the applicant's solicitor) an interim arrangement of supervised contact (via Spurgeons) on a once a week basis.

 

The only possible argument to put forward as an objection under the circumstances would be to suggest that the applicant may impose a negative attitude in respect of the Father to the child if the contact were to be unsupervised.The problem with that however, is that the child would be regarded too young to understand such comments I think.

 

I'm sorry to say that I havn't seen anything here (so far) that makes me think that the applicant should not achieve some form of contact order. So the Father may just as well as grit his teeth and say that he will agree to supervised contact at a frequency of an hour a week to be reviewed after 3 months.

[Desperate Daniella]

I know that is the likely outcome because that is what the courts do nowadays because of grandparents' human rights, but it's absolutely appalling that an abusive parent, now grandparent, can waltz into a young family's life after no contact for 13 years and disrupt it. Anyway, we don't know (and don't need to know on this forum) the extent of the abuse staci's partner suffered at the hands of his mother.

 

As far as I can see from what staci has said so far there was no attempt by this woman to build bridges and mend her relationship with her son prior to the birth of the baby or for two years afterwards.

 

There is clearly huge animosity between the grandparent and staci and her partner and why any court would think it's in the best interests of the child to be passed between these people who loathe each other is beyond me.

 

And I do think there is a difference between this situation and one where the parents of a child have split up because in most of those cases it's probably better for the child to have contact with both parents even if they do hate each other.

[staci]

I understand both your sides but like ss said i really doubt there is anything we can do. Its causing my bf major distress as he cannot imagine our son having any form of contact with her due to what she did to him and us as a family. I honestly dont see how it would work as we will not be encouraging any contact outside of what ever she gets... therefore if we agree to taking him to a contact centre etc and he does get to know her then sees her while were out etc we will not allow him to see her. This is then going to cause upset as a family between us all.

I lived with my parents when my son was first born but had to move out as his mum kept pestering us. She pushed letters through the door,shouted abuse and demanded to see her grandson. Not once has she tried to make ammense with us. If we see her out and about she cant even look at us. She has followed me around town too. None of this was mentioned in the cafcass report.

[Desperate Daniella]

I think she is doing this precisely because she wants to cause distress.

 

Please contact Law Works this morning.

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

staci,

 

You do not have to agree to contact tomorrow. You can insist that it goes to a full hearing and all the details of the abuse can go in your Witness Statement.

[staci]

Ok,i will do that. I know this sounds silly but when do we ask for this? Will they ask us our views on the report?

[Desperate Daniella]

At a Directions Hearing, which as ss says may well be heard by the Clerk, you will probably be asked if you agree to contact and you can say you oppose it. You may be asked for brief reasons why. Then both parties will be asked to provide Witness Statements prior to a later full hearing. When you go to that hearing the judge will speak directly to you about the statements you have made and he'll ask her too about the abuse your bf suffered at her hands, and the subsequent abuse to you both as a couple.

 

Yes, he may grant the contact at that hearing, but in light of the continuing abuse he may not. If he does, then your bf can ask for the one hour at a contact centre for a three month initial period as ss suggests above.

[staci]

What happens if it isnt a directions hearing?

[Desperate Daniella]

I was just thinking the same. What exactly does it say on the papers you received from the Court.

 

As it's been set down for just 30 minutes this would indicate it's a Directions Hearing but let's be certain.

 

You could always phone the Court and check with them.

[staci]

It states:

The court directs:

Cafcass to file and serve a s7 report addressing the issue of contact between the grandmother and the child by no later than...

 

The matter is listed for a further hearing on..... with a time estimate of 30 minutes at .....

The parties and their representitives to attend court no later than 30 minutes before the time of the appointment for the purpose of negociation.

[Desperate Daniella]

I'd like to hear what ss says, but I'm surprised there is no mention of you/your bf being asked to give any witness statements if this is a full hearing.

 

What I think is that they want you to come to an agreement before you go into court, then if you do agree the court will just rubber stamp it, so to speak.

 

If you don't agree you will go into court and be asked why you oppose contact, you will say why, and that is probably when it will be set down for another hearing with Witness Statements to be provided by both parties beforehand.

 

How much time did Cafcass spend with you and your bf and son? Clearly your bf is extremely distressed by the thought of contact with her and I'm surprised there is little about this in the report.

[sailor sam]

Ok, I need to step in here. DD, I really appreciate that your intentions are really sincere but i'm afraid you should be careful how you formulate your advice here. IMHO you are inadvertently giving the OP false hope. If there was an Olympic sport in these matters, I would be a gold medal winner! I have been through it many times and it seems, very similar circumstances but the other way round (meaning I was the applicant).

 

In my case, I have been accused of everything from child abuse to domestic violence (non of it was true) in an attempt to prevent contact. In my first case involving my eldest son, the process lasted 2 years with 2 dozen hearings during which, my ex-partner took my son out of school in an attempt to make sure I could not see him there. At that point, I changed my application from contact to residence which was a bold move as courts tend to favour the Mother as being the resident parent. In the end and after going through a long, stressful legal process costing thousands of pounds, I was granted residence of my son (who was only 8 at the time).

 

So you see, without any evidence to back up alleged abuse or the likelihood of the applicant posing any kind of threat to the child, it is almost certain some form of contact order will be made. Challenging the application will simply prolong the inevitable and thus causing further stress and inconvenience to all concerned, not to mention loosing favour of the court. Lets look at the facts (as we know them;

 

• The Father has no legal representation and cannot afford any (not that that will make much difference at this stage)
  
• The applicant has legal representation so will (or should) be well aquainted in the options open to her.
  
• The process is already at an advanced stage as the section 7 report has already been filed
  
• We do not know the other side of the story or the history of the case
  
• We don't know whether the OP is being entirely truthful or is giving all the relevant facts
  

 

My advice is based on what the OP has told us and from my own vast experience of what the court will consider, how the process works and what the likely out come will be. I said (i think) in my very first post that the OP will most likely not like what I am going to say but I think it is better to be realistic rather than give false hope.

 

Tomorrows' hearing will be of a directions nature most likely in front of a clerk to establish whether any agreement can be reached following the recommendations in the CAFCASS report. No doubt the applicant's solicitor will make some kind of suggestion of contact which the applicant wants and will best be acquainted on how to move the case forward. If the Father continues to resist any form of contact then no doubt the clerk will list for a contested hearing when statements will be requested by both parties. I would guess that this will be listed in about 6 to 8 weeks time and again, all parties will be required to attend. A full contested hearing will no doubt be the point where the applicant's solicitor may well employ the services of a barrister who will cross-examine the Father and any other witnesses either side may want to call. On the other hand, the applicant's solicitor may ask for the case to be transferred to the county court which is better suited to deal with complex cases as it is dealt with in front of a district judge.

 

Now does the OP really want all the above to happen on the strength of their argument and the lack of evidence to back up their case? My advice stands (with the information given); reach an agreement of restricted and supervised contact which is what the court is likely to order anyway.