not enough Points for ESA and Benefits stopped for Mandatory reassesment by DWP DM ** TRIBUNAL WON **

[Storm in a T-cup]

Hi all I am new

 

As title says I went for my assessment on March 11th after waiting 8 months for it and got a Call from DWP today saying Atos have declared me "Fit to Work" and as such I am not entitled to any ESA payments I asked for a Mandatory reassessment and was told this can take up to if not more than 6 weeks for a decision and until then I cannot start the appeal process. I understand when that starts I can get put on the assessment rate of ESA while the appeal goes through the slow process of getting to the tribunal.

 

My problem is I cannot afford to have No money coming in for those 6 weeks and was told that my only access to benefits is to sign on and claim JSA while the Decision Maker takes another look at my case. I suffer with chronic back pain and suspected Spinal nerve Damage (Waiting on MRI scan at the Hospital needs to be done under anesthetic as I am claustrophobic and have a number of Medical phobias) and cannot walk for more than 50 yards cannot stand or sit for longer than 10-15 minutes without significant Pain.

 

I am worried about being able to convince Job Center that i am well enough to claim Job Seekers Allowance and also worried that by claiming I will hurt my appeal process I was told as soon as Tribunal has received my appeal that ESA would automatically be reinstated and I would not have to sign off job seekers allowance as the switch back to assessment rate would all be done automatically is it a Good idea first to sign on Job Seekers Allowance and second to trust what DWP have said? Won't signing on Job Seekers Allowance be like admitting they were right to say I'm fit and are there ANY other choices open to me? I have no Family or support network to help me through 6 weeks of no money for Food Electric

 

Sorry for the wall of Text but i just dont know what to do

[**Margaret**]

:Storm in a T-cup:

 

Hello, hope you don't mind but I've put some white space into your post to make it easier for us to read. And cos you've finished with the Atos bit of your assessment, I've moved your thread to the benefits forum where you may get more help to appeal an adverse benefit decision.

 

Assuming you're not a lone parent or a carer, some of the advice you've been given about claiming jobseekers is correct. As you've been found fit for work, your Jobcentre can't refuse a claim on the grounds of capability. Anecdotal evidence is that Jobcentre advisors are accepting such claims, then 'parking' the claimant until there's an outcome of mandatory reconsideration.

 

Unfortunately the advice about an automatic switch to assessment rate employment n support isn't correct. Should your case go to appeal, either state that you wish to claim assessment rate in Section 5 of the SSCS1 appeal form or once you've received the acknowledgement send a written request, accompanied by a Med 3 (unfit) note, to your benefit delivery centre.

 

Your request for mandatory reconsideration needs to be confirmed in writing cos Jobcentreplus 'lose' a lot of phone calls. From what you've written your grounds for appeal are; that you can't repeatedly mobilise 50 metres within a reasonable time and that you've problems with standing and sitting. If you've already got, or can get, some supportive evidence send it with your request. But don't let waiting for evidence cause you to miss the deadline. The criteria for an award of employment support allowance are in the booklet at;

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/esa214-a-guide-to-employment-and-support-allowance-the-work-capability-assessment

 

Exceptional/special circumstances at pages 10 - 12.

 

Descriptors of activities that are relevant to the workplace at pages 18 - 28.

 

Have you asked for a copy of the ESA85 report of your Atos assessment? If not, it should be available on request for the price of a phone call to the number on the last letter you received from Jobcentreplus. Probably be some bits you want to refute!

 

'I just don't know what to do'. If you can't beg/borrow from family/friends through the reconsideration period, you've no choice but to claim jobseekers until you can, if necessary, lodge an appeal with the Tribunals Service and claim assessment rate employment n support.

 

Sincerely, Margaret.

[estellyn]

I don't really have anything to add to Margaret's excellent advice, except to say that I'm really sad that it's come to this for claimants due to the 'mandatory reconsideration' rule.

 

 

An extra layer of torment for claimants (to have to claim JSA), and it undoubtedly costs the DWP more money in administration costs than just keeping a claimant on assessment rate ESA during the mandatory reconsideration. complete insanity.

[2ltr16valve]

I suspect it's to 'bolster' their figures of people coming off the sick and back to seeking work !!

Nothing to do with saving money, or the fact people are going to be put at risk and potentially made worse.

[Helen2264]

I suspect it's to 'bolster' their figures of people coming off the sick and back to seeking work !!

Nothing to do with saving money, or the fact people are going to be put at risk and potentially made worse.

 

 

I couldn't agree more it's a trend that is happening more and more and DWP is making it extremely hard for people to appeal and get people so low down that they will go for anything to survive ie claim job seekers.

 

DWP like the local Authority would be taken over by Private companies, my local Authority has already been taken over by Capita a private companies hence! people cannot and will not get social housing.

[Storm in a T-cup]

:Storm in a T-cup:

 

Hello, hope you don't mind but I've put some white space into your post to make it easier for us to read. And cos you've finished with the Atos bit of your assessment, I've moved your thread to the benefits forum where you may get more help to appeal an adverse benefit decision.

 

Assuming you're not a lone parent or a carer, some of the advice you've been given about claiming jobseekers is correct. As you've been found fit for work, your Jobcentre can't refuse a claim on the grounds of capability. Anecdotal evidence is that Jobcentre advisors are accepting such claims, then 'parking' the claimant until there's an outcome of mandatory reconsideration.

 

Unfortunately the advice about an automatic switch to assessment rate employment n support isn't correct. Should your case go to appeal, either state that you wish to claim assessment rate in Section 5 of the SSCS1 appeal form or once you've received the acknowledgement send a written request, accompanied by a Med 3 (unfit) note, to your benefit delivery centre.

 

Your request for mandatory reconsideration needs to be confirmed in writing cos Jobcentreplus 'lose' a lot of phone calls. From what you've written your grounds for appeal are; that you can't repeatedly mobilise 50 metres within a reasonable time and that you've problems with standing and sitting. If you've already got, or can get, some supportive evidence send it with your request. But don't let waiting for evidence cause you to miss the deadline. The criteria for an award of employment support allowance are in the booklet at;

 

 

Exceptional/special circumstances at pages 10 - 12.

 

Descriptors of activities that are relevant to the workplace at pages 18 - 28.

 

Have you asked for a copy of the ESA85 report of your Atos assessment? If not, it should be available on request for the price of a phone call to the number on the last letter you received from Jobcentreplus. Probably be some bits you want to refute!

 

'I just don't know what to do'. If you can't beg/borrow from family/friends through the reconsideration period, you've no choice but to claim jobseekers until you can, if necessary, lodge an appeal with the Tribunals Service and claim assessment rate employment n support.

 

Sincerely, Margaret.

 

Hi Margaret.

 

I dont mind the move or the spacing but I do have a couple of Questions

 

 

1st you say my request for Mandatory reconsideration should be confirmed in writing do you mean I must write a letter to confirm I want this or DWP will confirm in writing my request as when I informed them I wanted a DM to look at it again I received a call back from DWP an hour or so after I requested it to confirm this is what I wanted so it could be put on their computer and sent to the DM.

 

 

2nd you say I must request to be put back on Assessment rate ESA on the form SSCS1 appeal with a Med 3 I have already provided a Med 3 that covers me well into this year are you saying that one is no good now and I must request another one from my GP to go with this form?

 

 

3rd No I have no one I can Beg/Borrow from for the waiting period so I will have to claim JSA as you say but you also say "Until you can if NECESSARY, lodge an appeal with the Tribunal" Are you saying DWP can say I have no right to an Appeal and can STOP me from doing one?

 

 

4th as you say I am not going to wait for further evidence for the DM as I am informed this will just drag out the process of getting to the point of an appeal and can be gathered to be given to Tribunal.

 

 

I have not yet requested a transcript of my ATOS assessment yet but will first thing Monday morning as the Letter i got from the DM today has me totaly misrepresented by the Nurse I saw, yes Nurse not even Doctor!

 

 

Sorry if you think these questions are silly but I get confused and have a little trouble understanding things

[antone]

 

3rd No I have no one I can Beg/Borrow from for the waiting period so I will have to claim JSA as you say but you also say "Until you can if NECESSARY, lodge an appeal with the Tribunal" Are you saying DWP can say I have no right to an Appeal and can STOP me from doing one?

 

 

 

No, the DWP can't stop you appealing. I think what Margaret meant was that if the reconsideration goes in your favour, an appeal won't be necessary.

[**Margaret**]

:Storm in a T-cup:

 

Your questions aren't silly. The new disputes process is far more complex than previously! At every stage!! Not helped by the call handlers getting it wrong cos they've had minimal training!!!

 

There's no form, or a set format, to request mandatory reconsideration. Claimants can phone the number on the disallowance notice, mention it during a conversion with a decision maker if there is one, or write a letter and preferably send it via recorded delivery. A letter is by far the best option cos Jobcentreplus have a unique talent for 'losing' phone calls.

 

Technically Med 3 (unfit) notes are valid until the expiry date. Realistically a new note can lead to quicker payment cos the processor doesn't have to hunt for the old one. But don't enclose a Med 3 with the SSCS1 appeal form. Once your appeal's been acknowledged, either enclose one with a letter to your benefit delivery centre to request you be paid assessment rate, or if you requested assessment rate on the SSCS1 form, wait for your benefit delivery centre to ask for a Med 3.

 

When a decision's revised at mandatory reconsideration, it isn't necessary to lodge an appeal. (Unless the claimant's unhappy with the revised decision.) But should a fit for work decision not be revised during mandatory reconsideration, Jobcentreplus can't stop the claimant's right of appeal to the Tribunals Service.

 

Many disallowed claimants, praps the majority, decline to supply supportive evidence for the reconsideration stage as a way of getting assessment rate employment n support back into payment as soon as possible. In my opinion, suspending payments during reconsideration has proved a bit of an own goal for Government.

 

Hope all that makes sense, but if not I'm happy to try and clarify it further. Believe it or not, this fracas was designed for earlier resolution of disputes.

 

Best wishes, Margaret.

[Storm in a T-cup]

Thanks for clearing up those questions for me Margaret I think I have a grasp of the situation now.

 

 

One other thing I wanted to know is I have an Appointment to see someone at JCP Monday afternoon regarding JSA can the person I see then confirm for me that my Mandatory Reconsideration request is in the Computer and going ahead?

 

 

Also I was advised by CAB that as soon as I got conformation from DWP DM that Atos assessment is upheld and I am still considered fit to work I should contact them as they will help me with the whole Appeal process and they have the forms required to do it. Can I go to them as soon as I get the phone call from the DM or do I need to wait for the following confirmation Letter?

[**Margaret**]

:Storm in a T-cup:

 

Lucky you. That you live in an area where Citizens Advice still have enough personnel and resources to help with appeals to the Tribunals Service. I think Citizens Advice will want you to be in receipt of two copies of the Mandatory Reconsideration Notice before they'll see you, but you can always check to make sure. An SSCS1 appeal form can't be lodged without a copy of the notice. Tribunals Service have to receive an appeal within a month of the date on the notice.

 

Sorry, I've no idea whether Jobcentre computer screens show requests for mandatory reconsiderations.

 

Margaret.

[Beatrice Bee]

I did 40 minutes in the MRI scan machine and did not panic.

 

The way to do it is close your eyes when they start moving you into the machine. You lying on a table and it slides into the MRI machine. Do not open your eyes while you are in there. You get ear plugs because it is a bit noisy. Through speakers two members of staff are in contact with you. They tell you how much long each scan is going to take: "The next one is 10 mins. Don't move now." From time to time they ask if you are all right in there. There is a panic button in your hand in case you want to get out.

 

My right hand went numb by the end of the 40 mins but I did it without freaking out. It is so tight in there that you are bound to panic if you see what a tight space you are moving into [a tube] so sliding in with open eyes or opening your eyes while you in the machine is a no no.

 

You can not realy move your head because it is padded in a way that there is not much space to move it so worry not about ruining the scan by moving around too much.

[Storm in a T-cup]

I did 40 minutes in the MRI scan machine and did not panic.

 

The way to do it is close your eyes when they start moving you into the machine. You lying on a table and it slides into the MRI machine. Do not open your eyes while you are in there. You get ear plugs because it is a bit noisy. Through speakers two members of staff are in contact with you. They tell you how much long each scan is going to take: "The next one is 10 mins. Don't move now." From time to time they ask if you are all right in there. There is a panic button in your hand in case you want to get out.

 

My right hand went numb by the end of the 40 mins but I did it without freaking out. It is so tight in there that you are bound to panic if you see what a tight space you are moving into [a tube] so sliding in with open eyes or opening your eyes while you in the machine is a no no.

 

You can not realy move your head because it is padded in a way that there is not much space to move it so worry not about ruining the scan by moving around too much.

 

 

Thanks for the reply

 

I have actually been to the Hospital for an MRI scan got put into the machine and within 2 mins had a Panic attack and pressed the panic button 50 times and had to be pulled out by the attendants and calmed down I was told after such a severe episode I would not be asked back for another one and was suggested to have an X-Ray or a CT scan.

 

When I say I have Medical phobias they are severe to the point of crippling for instance I would almost rather die than have an injection of any sort I also understand that I do myself no favors being this way and being sick.

 

 

When I returned to my Doctor she said she would not even consider an X-Ray or CT scan first I must have an MRI scan and this would be done under anesthetic I tried too explain to her I was worried about getting there and having another episode as I am terrified of this procedure and was dismissed with her saying they would "Manage me".

 

My Doctor also told me when I was talking about my disability and needing help from my Son who is 18 and a virtual unpaid carer that "I was being ridiculous and am only 43 and should not be expecting anyone to care for me at all"

 

This is a New Doctor when my old Doctor retired after I had been with him for 11 years My medical notes along with 70% of all the other patients were apparently "Lost" so am starting from scratch with no Medical Notes to review and my Mental problems are being treated like I am just a silly person who needs to stop being so "Silly and Childish about such things"

[Storm in a T-cup]

Double post sorry

[mkb]

Have you applied for DLA ? If not, it sounds as though you should. You have met the qualifying period so if I were you, I'd get the form in & start the ball rolling. The extra money each month makes a huge difference.

[abc123def]

It's PIP now though. It does sound as if you may be entitled to lower rate mobility at the very least given your anxiety.

[**Margaret**]

:Storm in a T-cup:

 

Yes, all new claims for help with care or mobility have to be for a personal independence payment.

 

http://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/personal-independence-payment-pip

 

Margaret.

[Storm in a T-cup]

Hey guys thanks for your replys I went to JCP today to sign on for JSA while waiting for Mandatory Review from DM the Lady I saw was very understanding and we made a Job plan with the lightest requirements she could put on there she also made the comment that JCP was more like a GPs waiting room than a Benefits Office for the last few months and she would not be surprised to see someone on "Life Support" being wheeled in there to be signed on for JSA.

 

Now I just have to wait for DM to refuse me ESA again so I can go to Appeal!

Am exhausted and in significant pain and dreading next week as I will have to sign on Monday then Tuesday have to go in to see an adviser and possibly be given the mandate to go round and sign up with recruitment Agencys either that day or another day Dont know how I will cope with that as 1-2 hours activity usually leaves me in such pain that i need a day or two to recover from it.

 

Also the Money situation is not good having stopped all my benefits and no likelihood of any money coming in till a week thursday I will not have the 7 pounds it will take to get me to the JCP for signing on and Adviser the next day going to see if my local CAB could either help there or recommend a charity to help as one missed appointment means Sanction and 4 weeks loss of benefit.

 

 

Yes I have applied for PiP but I understand the requirements are the same as the WCA and if I was passed Fit for Work I will not even Qualify for Low Rate mobility as these assessments are also made by Atos.

 

The PiP claim was made early December and can apparently like the WCA take up to 6-9 months to be dealt with. I will keep you posted as to how things go and what if any, Help I find.

[antone]

The requirements for PIP are not the same as those for the ESA WCA, and the fact that you've been found fit for work at an ESA assessment does not mean you won't get PIP. The WCA is based on your ability to work - PIP has nothing to do with whether or not you can work.

 

I'm not saying you will get PIP, just that the rules and requirements are different.

[**Margaret**]

:Storm in a T-cup:

 

Pleased to hear that your trip to the Jobcentre went as well as could be expected. Have you tried googling for credit unions in your area?

 

http://www.findyourcreditunion.co.uk

 

There's some overlap between the descriptors for employment n support and personal independence but a knockback for one doesn't preclude the other. Have a look at the descriptors for personal independence. If you've problems with caring/cooking for yourself, or getting from A to B cos of mental health issues or your spinal problems, it's worth keeping a diary of every time you need help as supportive evidence for your application.

 

Best wishes, Margaret.

[Storm in a T-cup]

:Storm in a T-cup:

 

Pleased to hear that your trip to the Jobcentre went as well as could be expected. Have you tried googling for credit unions in your area?

 

 

 

There's some overlap between the descriptors for employment n support and personal independence but a knockback for one doesn't preclude the other. Have a look at the descriptors for personal independence. If you've problems with caring/cooking for yourself, or getting from A to B cos of mental health issues or your spinal problems, it's worth keeping a diary of every time you need help as supportive evidence for your application.

 

Best wishes, Margaret.

 

 

Many thanks for the further comments I do appreciate them it is good to know there are somewhat different requirements for PiP but I won't hold my breath if someone as obviously disabled as me can be passed Fit to Work I cant see Atos who are responsible for the PiP assessment passing me for even the Lowest rate of Mobility.

 

 

I will of course keep a diary of my day to day care requirements but the Mobility cant really be put into a diary because apart from Doctors, Food shopping done once every two weeks and now the JCP appointments for JSA while awaiting mandatory reconsideration I really never leave my house Living on top of a hill I can only go anywhere on Public transport (that itself has its own difficulties ie Can I get someone to come with me. is there room to sit and having to rely sometimes on the kindness of strangers/Bus driver for help) and simply cannot afford the little I do so any diary would possibly only contain me leaving my house 3-4 times in any 2 week period.

[Storm in a T-cup]

Hey all

 

So I am trying to keep a diary of my need for help does anyone know of a Guide to help me as in what to put down and what PiP will want to see?

 

Also do I take this diary with me to the Assessment, will it even be looked at because when I went to Atos for my WCA the nurse only wanted Yes/No answers and every time I tried to give an explanation on the background to them she kept cutting me off saying we will get back to that or I will ask about that in a minute but never did. Then she wrote a complete fabrication of what happened and what she "Observed" at the Assessment for DWP.

[**Margaret**]

:Storm in a T-cup:

 

Criteria for an award of personal independence at;

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/pip-assessment-criteria

 

From the factsheet, you can note that points are scored for what you need aids and help with, rather than how often you need help. Writing a diary is good preparation for what to say to the assessor. And a copy sent to the address on the covering letter that came with your PIP2 form is supportive evidence for your claim. Helps to discredit fabrications.

 

Margaret.

[Storm in a T-cup]

:Storm in a T-cup:

 

Criteria for an award of personal independence at;

 

 

From the factsheet, you can note that points are scored for what you need aids and help with, rather than how often you need help. Writing a diary is good preparation for what to say to the assessor. And a copy sent to the address on the covering letter that came with your PIP2 form is supportive evidence for your claim. Helps to discredit fabrications.

 

Margaret.

 

Hey Margaret many thanks for the reply.

 

Reading through the Link you provided it would seem that I not only should definitely qualify for Standard rate Mobility I should also qualify for Standard rate Care too as by the requirements on the Link i score 10 (possibly 12) on the Mobility and 12 (possibly 14) on the Care.

 

I cannot tell you just how much this would go toward affecting my Quality of Life for the better.

 

I will be sending a copy of 4 weeks worth of Dairy to the PiP people assuming I dont get given an Appointment before that time I will take it along to the Assessment if that happens.

 

I would also like to take a minute to Thank the People of this site I wish I had found you months ago The advice is great the people are just lovely its so nice to be treated like a human being instead of "One of those ****** benefit Scroungers" My heartfelt thanks to you all I will keep you posted on my progress as it happens.

[Katelyn25]

Hello everyone, I am new here and I am being cheeky and tagging along with this post. I am in a similar situation as Storm.

 

Had my esa medical "phone call" to say I had failed. I said I would be requesting the Mandatory Reconsideration and have asked for the paperwork to do so.

 

Also told, like Storm, that I would have to claim Jsa for any incone as we dont have anything else coming in. (Applied for pip, still awaiting results, no doubt for a while yet).

 

However, like most people, we are unsure what to do now. The nice lady (not) at the jobcentre was very brutal and insisted we look for work, despite the long list of my medical problems in the back of the form. My hubby is my full time carer and had medical problems of his own.

 

My doctor has given me a (un)fit for work certificate and will keep giving them to me as long as Dwp need them. He doesnt understand how I was disallowed the medical. I read you cannot be put on Jsa whilst on a sick note? Perhaps I read wrong.

 

we really dont know what to do. Can anyone give any other help apart from jsa, whilst waiting the mandatory time?

apologies to Storm for jumping in on your thread.

[Storm in a T-cup]

So after having No other choice I signed on JSA while waiting for Mandatory review.

 

Had an Adviser interview today I tried to explain my situation to her and the fact I was on JSA ONLY till I can get my appeal lodged at Tribunal

 

she said she was only concerned about Work related details So off to a good start there "Long story short" she has placed me on a course where I have to turn up to the JCP Monday Tuesday and Wednesday at 9AM till 11.30AM with the National carreas service to teach me confidence and other related Work advice.

 

When I told her my disability could well prevent me from turning up 3 Days in a row as 1 day of activity could take 2-3 days for me to recover from She said well if you don't turn up you will be sanctioned, you have been passed Fit to Work so I can't see any reason why you can't attend and its a Mandatory Requirement.

 

So it looks like I am going to get a sanction as my state of health just wont stand up to 3 consecutive days of strenuous activity and by that I mean just getting to JCP which is a 40 min journey by Bus and a considerable distance to walk between getting to the bus and from where the bus stops to JCP let alone having to sit in a classroom environment for 2-3 hours.

 

I was wondering if I would qualify for Hardship Benefit when that happens as having No money at all would have a serious affect on my health and well being?