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Post work programme support - Your experiences?

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see if i was to take a voluntary job if it says only 2hours per week will that stop me from getting put on the job centre forced work scheme? or does it not matter how many hours it is u can take your own voluntary and stops u from going on there scheme?

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see if i was to take a voluntary job if it says only 2hours per week will that stop me from getting put on the job centre forced work scheme? or does it not matter how many hours it is u can take your own voluntary and stops u from going on there scheme?

I was told 12 to 18 hours per week would be acceptable and he recomended to try 12 hours over 2 days coz u are still expected to do jobsearch


TJR JNR

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a was thinking "for the benefit of the community" but how is packing bags at tesco a benefit of the community outside would be but i really dont see how in a massive store packing bags is a the benefit of the community". people might think it is but to me it is not.

 

If, worst comes to the worst, and JCP mandate you to go to an organisation arranging the placements, which will vary according to the Region where you are based (details from http://refuted.org.uk/author/securingyourrights/ ), then confirm that if at any time you want to do voluntary work, you make that voluntary decision yourself, but not under any threat of coercion. However, if they arrange an interview for a placement, simply attend, and make it clear from the outset at the interview that, if the company is not prepared to employ you to do the job, then whereas you will do what is expected of you, you will be taking the matter forward through an Industrial Tribunal and reporting the employer to HMRC for investigation into potential infringement of Tax Legislation.

 

This issue arises because if you are told to report to a business at set hours (say, Monday-Sat 0900-1700 hrs), told what to do, how to do it, when to do it, under the supervision of someone within the business, then you are subject to a Defacto Contract of Employment. Legally, you ate entitled to at least National Minimum Wage.

 

As highlighted through http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/work_w/work_rights_at_work_e/contracts_of_employment.htm

It is common for an employer to call someone self-employed, or a ‘casual worker’ or a ‘trainee’, when that person is really an employee. Employers do this in order to avoid having to pay tax and national insurance for their employees and to try to avoid them having employment rights. It is irrelevant what your employer calls you, whether you are known, for example, as self employed, an agency worker, or a casual worker

Additionally,

How to tell if someone is an employee or not

The following factors will all help you decide whether you are an employee or self-employed when you want to find out what your employment rights are:-

 

  • does your employer tell you what work to do and how to do it (even if you are left alone to actually carry out the work). Does your employer provide you with work, or do you have to go out and find your own work to do. If your employer controls the work to be done and provides the work, you will be an employee
  • how you are paid. If you are paid a regular amount of pay at regular intervals, rather than being paid per job done, this indicates you are an employee
  • who is responsible for getting the work done. If you have to find someone else, such as a sub-contractor or a friend, to do the work if you are unable to, this would indicate you are self-employed. If your employer finds someone else to do the work if, for example, you are off sick, this would indicate you are an employee
  • who provides tools and materials to do the work. If your employer is responsible for supplying main tools and machinery and materials, with you responsible for supplying only a few of your own tools, you are likely to be an employee.

If, after reading through the factors under the heading How to tell if you are an employee or not, you think you are an employee, you will have a contract of employment. This does not have to be written down. A contract of employment is agreed between the employer and the employee and can be a verbal contract. See below.

 

You will note from

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/prosecutions/crim-inv-policy.htm

that

HMRC Criminal Investigation Policy

HMRC's aim is to secure the highest level of compliance with the law and regulations governing direct and indirect taxes and other regimes for which they are responsible. Criminal investigation, with a view to prosecution by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) (Opens new Window) in England and Wales or the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service (COPFS) in Scotland and the Public Prosecution Service Northern Ireland (PPSNI) in Northern Ireland, is an important part of HMRC's overall enforcement strategy.

 

It is HMRC's policy to deal with fraud by use of the cost effective civil fraud investigation procedures under Code of Practice 9 (PDF 320K) wherever appropriate. Criminal Investigation will be reserved for cases where HMRC needs to send a strong deterrent message or where the conduct involved is such that only a criminal sanction is appropriate.

 

However, HMRC reserves complete discretion to conduct a criminal investigation in any case and to carry out these investigations across a range of offences and in all the areas for which the Commissioners of HMRC have responsibility.

 

Examples of the kind of circumstances in which HMRC will generally consider commencing a criminal, rather than civil investigation are:

 

  • in cases of organised criminal gangs attacking the tax system or systematic frauds where losses represents a serious threat to the tax base, including conspiracy
  • where an individual holds a position of trust or responsibility
  • where deliberate concealment, deception, conspiracy or corruption is suspected

When considering whether a case should be investigated using the civil fraud investigation procedures under Code of Practice 9 or is the subject of a criminal investigation, one factor will be whether the taxpayer(s) has made a complete and unprompted disclosure of the offences committed.

 

 

Although you will not be sanctioned, any any sanction doubt would never be upheld, this approach may make the employer think again. Does the employer wish to continue with a course of action that may see them in court, facing a criminal investigation at their complicity in organised tax fraud, or do they want the easy way out. They will either offer you paid employment, or return you to the Job Centre. Additionally, there is nothing wrong with you citing the name of i) the Job Centre Plus Admin Officer sending to the Placement Contract Holder (this may be G4S, Learn Direct), ii) the named individual within the Placement Contract Holder, in addition to the organisation hosting the placement through any reports to HMRC

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No specific guidance has been published in respect to these new HtW and CWP schemes, so we need to look at existing WP guidance. This is what the DWP has said on the issue of NMW:

National Minimum Wage Act

 

54. It is the provider’s responsibility to ensure that all work experience and

community benefit work placements are in line with National Minimum

Wage regulations. As part of their considerations, providers should

consider the following points:

• As a general rule, persons participating in a relevant Government

Scheme – which includes the Work Programme – designed to

provide training, work experience or temporary work, or to assist in

seeking or obtaining work, do not qualify for the National Minimum

Wage (NMW) in respect of work done for an employer as part of

that scheme.

• However, there are some important exceptions:

• Participants will qualify for the NMW if they are regarded as

employees of the employer AND are paid for their work by the

employer. (Payment of expenses can be ignored for these

purposes.)

• Even if they are not paid by the employer, participants will

qualify for the NMW if they are regarded as employees of the

employer AND are participating in a trial period of work with that

employer, in which the employer has agreed to offer a job to the

participant if they successfully complete the trial, in cases where

the trial is in excess of six weeks.

• "Employment" has a wide meaning, and participants are likely to be

regarded as employees if they agree voluntarily to take up the

placement with a particular employer.

• The NMW is very unlikely to apply to participants mandated to

participate in unpaid work experience or an unpaid community

benefit work placement through the Work Programme, or to

Participants who volunteer to take part in an unpaid placement of

either type which is not a work trial exceeding 6 weeks. Where a

claimant’s expenses are paid, this still counts as unpaid work

experience or unpaid community work placement. There are no

minimum or maximum periods for unpaid work experience or

unpaid community benefit work placements; however, any activity

to which a claimant is mandated must be reasonable in their

circumstances.

 

Updated: 26/04/ 2013 12 V6.00

Chapter 3c Work Programme Provider Guidance

 

The above is extracted from the current guidance, and the way I read it, it would seem to suggest that the DWP acknowledge that some conscripts do qualify for NMW - Anyone being mandated on to the latest scheme(s) should be reading the documentation very carefully and insisting on written clarification of any questionable points.

 

If it were myself being "volunteered" for one of these placements, I'd be collecting evidence to support a claim of employee status and saving up for court fees.


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No specific guidance has been published in respect to these new HtW and CWP schemes, so we need to look at existing WP guidance. This is what the DWP has said on the issue of NMW:

 

Ye I was looking to but could not find any other guidance than the one u just put up.

 

I will put up any info I get from my JCP adviser today about the HTW scheme

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A response to a recent F.o.I. request: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/community_work_programme#incoming-494667

 

It is worth having a read of the tender document to be found here: https://online.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk/Common/View%20Notice.aspx?site=1000&lang=en&noticeid=1170725&fs=true

 

The DWP have specified the following:

Each work placement must be of benefit to the community over and above the benefit of providing a placement to the individual. The role can work directly or indirectly towards the community benefit goal of the host organisation and can also include working towards the profit of the host organisation provided the majority of the role is dedicated towards delivery of benefit to the community.
and:

Each claimant is expected to participate fully in a full-time work placement, which will last for up to 26 weeks (within the allotted time of 30 weeks) alongside provider-led jobsearch. During the claimant’s work placement participation period, on a weekly basis, the claimant must undertake:

  • 30 hours* on work placement provision; and,
  • A minimum of 4 hours and a maximum of 10 hours of provider-led jobsearch.

The phrase "community benefit" is repeated throughout the document - An attempt to suggest that packing bags in Tesco meets the requirements of the amended JSA regulations perhaps....

 

If anyone is unfortunate enough to be conscripted in to one of these placements, maintain your own personal timesheets and get them signed off each day by a manager. Keep notes as to what you are required to do, and get written conformation (from a manager). Also keep bus/train tickets - The placement provider (not the "employer") is required to refund all travel expenses (it is in the contract).

 

If your placement is for the benefit of a retail chain's profit margin and of zero value to the community, consider an employment tribunal or small claims court action to receive backdated pay - That is where timesheets and job requirements will come in handy.

 

With Christmas coming - I know, too damned early - A number of major employers will be looking at staffing levels and ways to cut costs. I predict a re-run of the Homebase & Argos sc ams from 2011/12 where overtime was cut and hours made up by conscripts on MWA.


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'..and can also include working towards the profit of the host organisation

 

Sums it all up perfectly doesn't it. Carte blanche to exploit everyone.

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A response to a recent F.o.I. request: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/community_work_programme#incoming-494667

 

It is worth having a read of the tender document to be found here: https://online.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk/Common/View%20Notice.aspx?site=1000&lang=en&noticeid=1170725&fs=true

 

The DWP have specified the following:

and:

The phrase "community benefit" is repeated throughout the document - An attempt to suggest that packing bags in Tesco meets the requirements of the amended JSA regulations perhaps....

 

If anyone is unfortunate enough to be conscripted in to one of these placements, maintain your own personal timesheets and get them signed off each day by a manager. Keep notes as to what you are required to do, and get written conformation (from a manager). Also keep bus/train tickets - The placement provider (not the "employer") is required to refund all travel expenses (it is in the contract).

 

If your placement is for the benefit of a retail chain's profit margin and of zero value to the community, consider an employment tribunal or small claims court action to receive backdated pay - That is where timesheets and job requirements will come in handy.

 

With Christmas coming - I know, too damned early - A number of major employers will be looking at staffing levels and ways to cut costs. I predict a re-run of the Homebase & Argos sc ams from 2011/12 where overtime was cut and hours made up by conscripts on MWA.

 

i dont really see how "bag packing at tesco" is a benefit to the community am sure people in the community would probz agree that there is more things to help the community than standing in a big supermarket packing bags.

 

but i guess the dwp etc know better than anyone (NOT)

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i dont really see how "bag packing at tesco" is a benefit to the community am sure people in the community would probz agree that there is more things to help the community than standing in a big supermarket packing bags.

 

but i guess the dwp etc know better than anyone (NOT)

 

Mine was to be in a shop that help communities in Pakistan so a little bit further then here or the UK but I think paying the community back is a lie they tell

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i dont really see how "bag packing at tesco" is a benefit to the community

 

Quite simply, it is not.

 

If you get a placement in Tesco, Poundland, or any other retail store, keep note of anything/everything that would give weight to the claim of being an employee - Discounted goods, token payments for meals (or free meals in a staff canteen), requests to put in additional hours or cover absences. Any/all of the above could be used to support a claim of "employee" and therefore the entitlement to a fair wage.


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i had my jcp adviser appointment today and i have been put on to "my claimant commitment! instead of jsa .

 

been giving a big booklet called "my work plan"

 

got to go through a booklet ticking things off that they ask if i have did this or have this etc.

am not sure if anyone has this new booklet?

 

I HAVE to job search after breakfast and after tea everyday!

 

they have actions in plan.

i will use jobsites and employer websites to find and apply for jobs i can do (daily)

i will log in to my UJM account to find and apply for i can do (daily)

i will contact employers directly ask about any apply for jobs i can do (weekly)

i will check newspaper job vacancy sections and apply to those i can do (weekly)

i will respond promptly to contacts and notifications from employers and jobsites (daily)

i will consider what i need to do to make effective applications to the jobs i find (ongoing)

i will ensure i have an up to date CV that i can tailor tfor jobs i apply for (ongoing)

 

and another things i have to write down what i am going to do including how when and where.

for my next appointment like this week i have to send cvs away on tuesday and fridays and got other things to do.

 

but all this just for a stupid £114 every 2 weeks!

 

i have a few weeks before they pick what is best for me on the HTW scheme

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Was in the jobcentre for the PWP review and saw at least 3 work plan books in people's hands

Also over heard stuff like a non-English speaking person told to do warehouse work and learn English plussmc a girl getting told she's doing too much volunteering and she has to spend more time job searching plus she has to note how long it takes to do stuff plus what she does

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been giving a big booklet called "my work plan"

 

they have actions in plan.

I will [...] (daily)

 

When they say "daily", this will include Saturday and Sunday along with any/all public holidays - Watch your step and make sure you stick to this or risk another sanction.


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When they say "daily", this will include Saturday and Sunday along with any/all public holidays - Watch your step and make sure you stick to this or risk another sanction.

 

does it mean i have to put a job down on my UJM morning and night ?

 

and can u put updated cv etc on your UJM?

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see on UJM if u apply for a job through there UJM would it come up in application history that i had applied for as i click a job and i signed in to my account and i never put any info in and submitted it. as i never use the ujm to apply for jobs

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i had my jcp adviser appointment today and i have been put on to "my claimant commitment! instead of jsa .

 

been giving a big booklet called "my work plan"

 

got to go through a booklet ticking things off that they ask if i have did this or have this etc.

am not sure if anyone has this new booklet?

 

I HAVE to job search after breakfast and after tea everyday!

 

they have actions in plan.

i will use jobsites and employer websites to find and apply for jobs i can do (daily)

i will log in to my UJM account to find and apply for i can do (daily)

i will contact employers directly ask about any apply for jobs i can do (weekly)

i will check newspaper job vacancy sections and apply to those i can do (weekly)

i will respond promptly to contacts and notifications from employers and jobsites (daily)

i will consider what i need to do to make effective applications to the jobs i find (ongoing)

i will ensure i have an up to date CV that i can tailor tfor jobs i apply for (ongoing)

 

and another things i have to write down what i am going to do including how when and where.

for my next appointment like this week i have to send cvs away on tuesday and fridays and got other things to do.

 

but all this just for a stupid £114 every 2 weeks!

 

i have a few weeks before they pick what is best for me on the HTW scheme

 

Someone made a Freedom of Information Request about "My Work Plan" last year, and the DWP responded that it's not mandatory and you can't be sanctioned for not filling it in. This information is available on the Refuted website. I tried posting a direct link to it but apparently I'm not allowed to post links because I'm a new member on this forum with less than 10 posts. But here's a quote from the article. If you copy and paste this sentence into Google and search, it should lead you to the article. QUOTE :-

 

Completion of the My Work Plan booklet is not a condition of Jobseekers Allowance or Universal Credit. Completion can be refused without sanctions. This is confirmed in the attached [Jobcentre] guidance.

 

Print that out and show it to your Advisor.

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Is there a point to them booklets as they only seem to serve to over-complicate it? Maybe the only point is yet another easy tool for sanctioner's to keep being happy?

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see on UJM if u apply for a job through there UJM would it come up in application history that i had applied for as i click a job and i signed in to my account and i never put any info in and submitted it. as i never use the ujm to apply for jobs

 

It's supposed to log everything, especially job applications but I've read stories that it often doesn't do this and leaves you with no hard evidence to show the JC. I never use it this way. I'd do all your applications from other sites where it's definitely logged and you can just screen print it . Reed and CV-Library are great for this, they show all the details which the JC are looking for.

 

Nothing to stop you applying for stuff via UJ, just don't let it be your main source of proof. As Mr P says, always apply for something on weekends too, don't give them any excuse to find fault.

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This "check web site daily and apply for X jobs online" is all well and good if you have 24/7 access to the internet - I have had system failures that have prevented access to the internet and it took the ISP two weeks to partially fix it. Sure, I could trek the two miles over to my local library, but it is only open five days a week - Sundays, public holidays, and Thursday, it is closed.

 

A bit late for the OP, but my advice is never to admit to having broadband or a computer - If presented with a requirement to access the internet seven days a week, point out library time is restricted during opening hours.

 

For anyone with 24/7 internet and running Chrome, there is always: http://automation.strikenow.org.uk/


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It's supposed to log everything, especially job applications but I've read stories that it often doesn't do this and leaves you with no hard evidence to show the JC. I never use it this way. I'd do all your applications from other sites where it's definitely logged and you can just screen print it . Reed and CV-Library are great for this, they show all the details which the JC are looking for.

 

Nothing to stop you applying for stuff via UJ, just don't let it be your main source of proof. As Mr P says, always apply for something on weekends too, don't give them any excuse to find fault.

 

yeh never used it to apply for jobs i always use indeed etc.

 

yeh i apply for stuff at the weekend to. but am not sure with this "I HAVE to job search after breakfast and after tea everyday!" do i need to put down a job in the morning and then later on after tea?

 

i will use jobsites and employer websites to find and apply for jobs i can do (daily) a know this one as it is what u already do go on job sites and apply for this n that.

i will log in to my UJM account to find and apply for i can do (daily) do i need to go in everyday and must apply for a job everytime and write it down?

i will respond promptly to contacts and notifications from employers and jobsites (daily) so if i get say alerts for jobs through my email address i must apply? or what am not really sure about this.

 

she gave far to much info at one time and was telling me one thing then another and another so before i even was thinking about what she said the first time she just went on and on and then gave me the "work Booklet"

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I think the idea may be jobsearch Monday to Friday and 9-5 as a minimum and to account for every minute

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This "check web site daily and apply for X jobs online" is all well and good if you have 24/7 access to the internet - I have had system failures that have prevented access to the internet and it took the ISP two weeks to partially fix it. Sure, I could trek the two miles over to my local library, but it is only open five days a week - Sundays, public holidays, and Thursday, it is closed.

 

A bit late for the OP, but my advice is never to admit to having broadband or a computer - If presented with a requirement to access the internet seven days a week, point out library time is restricted during opening hours.

 

For anyone with 24/7 internet and running Chrome, there is always: http://automation.strikenow.org.uk/

 

ye i have internet at home so am not bothered about stuff but it was basically if i did not have any internet i would no doubt be brought in to there offices to go on there computers to apply and in no doubt after a few days am sure she would be trying to get me out on a voluntary job.

 

but i must say all this work booklet etc is so confusing i dont know why the DWP etc can not make stuff simple. anyone who is almost leaving the WP i must say good luck when u get all this cause u probz wish u were at the WP longer and that is something i wish a did not have to say but it is.

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WP is only better as the lesser of two evils as the people skills of the jobcentre staff are far worse then the WP used car salesmen attitudes

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Just returned from signing on this morning - there was still no sign of any 'Help To Work' scheme starting so as I had my usual decent adviser I asked her what was happening.

 

She said it was indeed starting, whereupon I asked her if she had any official, written guidance yet. She said they had been given guidance but that it was 'their own' at present (whatever that means) and there was nothing made public yet. I reminded her that, according to a FOI statement, guidance would be publicly available from the 28th of April but she didn't know anything about that. I had the feeling that even if there was written guidance, it wouldn't be much anyway.

 

Before I could press the matter further she said 'Anyway, you're not affected by the 'Help To Work' scheme as you finished the 2 years WP last August, so you're not eligible, it's for people who've left the WP more recently'. I wasn't expecting that one - huge sigh of relief from me. Apparently I'm a 'stock' customer (her words) so it's business as usual as far as the JC is concerned ie just normal signing. I asked if I was still classed as being on the PWP programme and she said yes - even though it's well over the 6 month stated period. Obviously they still don't know what to do with people in my category.

 

I can still be mandated to MWA as normal, as anyone can, but she's always happy with my efforts so no need for this. Her actual words today were 'I never have any worries over your efforts or jobsearch evidence' - O Lord, let me keep this decent, fair adviser! I show the same jobsearch to other advisers and while they never find fault, I can see them twisting their faces and thinking 'Damn, can't raise a doubt on this one'.

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