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Post work programme support - Your experiences?

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A Jobcentre adviser told me that if I did my jobsearch on UJM and noted every other activity that I carried out off UJM on UJM then allow him access to my Account he would have all the evidence he needed to satisfy himself that my job seeking activities met with the requirements of 'actively seeking employment'. He told me that every move I made on UJM, every keystroke, was recorded. Shock, horror, did he lie to me? Many other were told similar things by their advisers.

 

 

Why are they all so keen we use it if it doesn't record our activities in a way that they can check?

 

 

I have read DWP Guidance to Work Programme Providers, to its own advisers and decision makers, they all say the same thing. I have read DWP's terms of reference with employers who choose to use UJM and the terms of reference between DWP and Monster Inc. All extolling the virtues of UJM and praising its ability to grab claimants by the short and curlies and squeeze.

 

 

If you are what you claim to be and possess all this insider knowledge what possessed you to respond to my humble offerings, nether asked for nor welcome, rather than address the issues and the problems and the distress of the hundreds, if not thousands, on this site desperate for help, if not sheer badness?

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I've only just found this site. It seems (mostly) friendly. I joined to ask about an ongoing debt issue but found this benefit forum and just felt minded to add my two-penneth when I read your 'word to the wise' postings.

 

In answer to your direct question - Yes UJM notes when you've logged on. Your advisor can see when you logged on and which day. But what they CANNOT see (irrespective of whether you choose to tick the 'I authorise DWP to view my site' - and note this is just a token gesture to placate the disinfranchised who always seem so obsessed with who is monitoring them as if they are SO important, lol) is how long you stayed on for or what you looked at. All they can see is what you applied for, what notes you saved in your 'Application History' and what days you logged on.

 

To suggest otherwise is pure paranoia and suggests to me once again, that with respect, someone of your clear intelligence, has wholly too much time on their hands.

 

Chris x

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Dyfed,

Do you have any idea what self-aggrandizing purple prose is? Do you suffer from it yourself? Would you recommend I went for a snifter? Sometimes one feels so left out when one’s normal.

Drunk or sober I reckon we have a right plonker here.

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I'm only trying to correct you, if you choose to take this as a sleight on your ego then so be it.

 

As I said, no offence meant. But I can't stand by and see you peddle crap.

 

Enjoy your snifter, I'm about to have one myself :) Cx

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In addition to the list offered above you might peruse the DWP’s own factsheets on cookies (not the kind you eat, Dyfed) and the Information Commissioner's Office reams of literature on the subject.

 

When you have read all that perhaps you could point me to the information that describes UJM the way you would have me understand it.

 

Might I suggest too that you take it steady with the personal abuse? I can take it myself and if pushed give it to an extent that would turn my purple prose blue. It’s just that the powers that be frown on common trash contaminating the site. Nothing personal, you understand just that the snakes crawl at night, that’s what they say.

 

I ask again, when are you going to address the problem currently under discussion on this thread before we were so rudely interrupted and give us your considered specialist advice?

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Ladies and gentlemen, civility is not optional here.

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PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING. EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 

The idea that all politicians lie is music to the ears of the most egregious liars.

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I was told they don't even know when you log in apart from the last time you logged in eg log in daily and see them on Friday, if you logged in before seeing them then they only see that one

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This is the problem; nobody knows exactly what the DWP can and can't see or do with your UJ account. Ask 10 advisers and you'll get 10 differing replies - incuding a few they've made up out of thin air as they haven't a clue themselves. Doesn't matter what the guidance or law says on the use of UJ, Data Protection, etc, we all know the DWP and JC staff are prone to 'bend' any rules they have, when it suits them.

 

Being a natural cynic, I've always assumed everything I do on UJ is recorded and fully accessible to them, even without my permission. Being paranoid saves a lot of time and trouble :) I only apply for vacancies which have an external email contact, or handled by an agency I can contact directly. The JC adviser gets the UJ number and info on the vacancy I've applied for, so they can check the vacancy does exist and they get a screen print of my direct application. Nothing is recorded on UJ whatsoever, so I'm fulfilling the requirement to use UJ but not laying myself open to the perils of recording stuff on there.

 

95% of my evidence comes from other sources and I just throw in 3 or 4 UJ vacancies to show that I've looked at the site. Remember, the JC can't specify where you get your vacancies from; as long as you meet or exceed your JS Agreement requirements that's all they need.

 

I also remember the days when you got a nice letter back after applying for a vacancy, thanking you. We were classed as 'Personnel' then though, now we're just 'Human Resources' who don't even warrant an email reply.

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For me my PWP Coach recommended I fill in my details on UJM (did not say I had to only advised I do) just to cover my back, so for me I use it daily and record everything on it (all jobs I have seen on it for me are via an external website, so if I see a job and it says reed.co.uk under it, I go direct to reed and apply from there)

 

 

when I do see my coach, she has my UJM details on her screen and sees exactly the same thing I do, nothing extra (not to say more details aren't being gathered in the background for checking up on me)

 

 

I do also use the paper job book along side this, as this is what they look at when I sign on

 

 

IMO, as long as you at least stick to your job seekers agreement, recording details on UJM, paper book, printed word documents etc it shouldn't matter

 

 

Yes mistakes can happen and people get wrongly sanctioned, but if you are doing everything you are supposed to (and more) then this should get overturned

 

 

I know most don't agree with using UJM, but I can only give my experience of using it along with my local job centre, which has not been negative so far

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Chapter 3, section 25 of the DWP’s own UJ Toolkit says:

25. UJ brings a shift in the focus from helping claimants search for jobs, to looking instead at the claimant’s activity on UJ.

 

My interpretation of that statement is that using UJ is not meant to help me or make it easier for me to find a job. It is primarily to make it easier for the Jobcentre staff to keep tabs on what I do, my job seeking activity.

 

If the focus is to keep tabs on my job seeking activity and not to help me find a job, what else can they possibly want to keep tabs on me for?

 

The only answer that I can think of to that question is so that they can gather evidence with which to punish, penalise or sanction me.

 

It follows then that by agreeing to use UJ I am aiding and abetting the Jobcentre staff in their primary aim which is to punish, penalise or sanction me.

 

It follows then that by exercising my right to refuse to give them access to my UJ Account, or better still, not to use it at all, I am limiting the time and effort expended on defending or protecting myself from sanction and increasing my prospect of obtaining work by expending more time and effort in actually actively seeking it.

 

Here are two kinds of programmes that can be used to keep tabs on one’s activity on a website or a computer. There are undoubtedly more and some so secret that the general public knows nothing about them.

 

Website Trackers. These programmes tracks and records all activity while on a website.

 

Keystroke Loggers. These programmes are even more alarming. The following is a brief description of how they work from one of the many websites that sell them. A more thorough description would probably result in some making a dash for the sledgehammer and smashing their computer to bits.

 

A keylogger program does not require physical access to the user's computer. It can be downloaded on purpose by someone who wants to monitor activity on a particular computer or it can be downloaded unwittingly as spyware and executed as part of a rootkit or remote administration (RAT) Trojan horse. A keylogger program typically consists of two files that get installed in the same directory: a dynamic link library (DLL) file (which does all the recording) and an executable file (.EXE) that installs the DLL file and triggers it to work. The keylogger program records each keystroke the user types and uploads the information over the Internet periodically to whoever installed the program.

 

These programmes can be downloaded onto a computer’s hard-drive and be triggered to run in the background without the user’s knowledge. Every move that the user makes on that computer is then recorded, stored and sent at regular intervals to whoever controls the programme. Even camaras that some computers now come equiped with can be triggered to record and send pictures without the user knowing anything about it. Many computer training sites and publications now issue warnings to cover the camera with a piece of tape just in case.

 

There have been reports that keylogger programmes are used on Jobcentre IADs in order to obtain personal information of users who would not otherwise willingly give it.

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For me my PWP Coach recommended I fill in my details on UJM (did not say I had to only advised I do) just to cover my back, so for me I use it daily and record everything on it (all jobs I have seen on it for me are via an external website, so if I see a job and it says reed.co.uk under it, I go direct to reed and apply from there)

 

 

when I do see my coach, she has my UJM details on her screen and sees exactly the same thing I do, nothing extra (not to say more details aren't being gathered in the background for checking up on me)

 

 

I do also use the paper job book along side this, as this is what they look at when I sign on

 

 

IMO, as long as you at least stick to your job seekers agreement, recording details on UJM, paper book, printed word documents etc it shouldn't matter

 

 

Yes mistakes can happen and people get wrongly sanctioned, but if you are doing everything you are supposed to (and more) then this should get overturned

 

 

I know most don't agree with using UJM, but I can only give my experience of using it along with my local job centre, which has not been negative so far

 

most of this is just the same as me i apply for 95% jobs on here sites but put them on my ujm.

 

so much effort these days u have to put in just to go do a quick signing on and wait for your £100+ a fortnight which is people think is alot but to be honest when your signing on it is not.

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most of this is just the same as me i apply for 95% jobs on here sites but put them on my ujm.

 

so much effort these days u have to put in just to go do a quick signing on and wait for your £100+ a fortnight which is people think is alot but to be honest when your signing on it is not.

They want more and more each time you sign on in terms of details and they don't bother being polite or professional very often

Plus there's been no support and based on their actions and attitude they have no understanding of what support is or what it entails

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just been told that "section 3 of the social security act 1998" gives the dwp the right to contact employers only if its a "matched" vacancy. so basically one they found for you and told you to apply for any vacancies you find for yourself are your business you can still put them down on your jobsearch sheet etc but the JC CANT contact them unless you give them permission is which u would not so they have no way inless they gave u a job to apply for.

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There have been reports that keylogger programmes are used on Jobcentre IADs in order to obtain personal information of users who would not otherwise willingly give it.

 

It is extremely unlikely that there is any keylogging programmes installed on a JCP IAD despite what you have heard/read on the internet - If any software of this type has been installed at the request of a DWP official, he would be in serious trouble and possibly be facing a spell in prison. Do not believe everything you read on the internet.

 

If you are concerned about keyloggers, root kits, spy-ware, or any of the other nasty bits of software out there, use a computer that is relatively immune to this sort of thing. Get a Mac, or install one of the many Linux distributions available for free.


PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 

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It is extremely unlikely that there is any keylogging programmes installed on a JCP IAD despite what you have heard/read on the internet - If any software of this type has been installed at the request of a DWP official, he would be in serious trouble and possibly be facing a spell in prison. Do not believe everything you read on the internet.

 

If you are concerned about keyloggers, root kits, spy-ware, or any of the other nasty bits of software out there, use a computer that is relatively immune to this sort of thing. Get a Mac, or install one of the many Linux distributions available for free.

 

ye i doubt it and there far to many things that go about on the internet that u believe or u dont believe but i agree they would be in serious trouble if someone found them things on any dwp computer as u would be prison simple as that.

 

and i think if they did find it on the computers there would be a lot of explaining to do and am sure there would be a lot of people complaining about they should no be told or made to use ther websites to do job search etc as if it happened once who says it would not happen again know what i mean?

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I have already mentioned what Chapter 3, section 25 of the DWP’s own UJ Toolkit says:

25. UJ brings a shift in the focus from helping claimants search for jobs, to looking instead at the claimant’s activity on UJ.

 

I know I read the above statement off the internet and copied it on here but the DWP put it up there. I appreciate your warning of caution but I can distinguish between fact and fantasy too.

 

I tried to spell out in the previous post how security and privacy can be compromised by allowing Jobcentre advisers access to UJ Accounts and through it to the hard drive of one’s home computer.

 

Next, I put it to you, that if the statement above still holds true and the focus of UJ is not on helping claimants search for jobs but to look instead at the claimant’s activity on UJ, then how can UJ fulfil its primary function of focusing on the claimant's activity on UJ unless it can use cookies, tracking or even keystroke logging tools to look at and record the claimant’s activities when he/she uses UJ on the Jobcentre’s own IAD machines?

 

The Jobcentre’s own IAD machines are not solely for the use of claimants to access UJ. They are used for other purposes too. I gleaned that snippet from a DWP Freedom of Information response, so here again one can take it or leave it I suppose. I am not sure what law we can claim they are breaking if they choose to put any programme they like on their own machines.

 

Talking about the law I have mentioned in a previous post:

The Welfare Reform and Pensions Act 1999 (Section 72) (Relevant Authority) Designation Order 2013.

This order makes changes to previous laws so as to enable DWP and Work Programme Providers to contact employers and enquire about benefit claimants any time they want.

 

It is true that the harder one tries to placate the beast the more the beast demands.

 

I know many of us want to take on this corrupt and repressive system. We know the odds are stacked against us. But we are wasting our time if we choose of our own free will to allow the adversary not only to choose the weapons but to hold them as well.

 

What happened to the old spirit “So long as but one hundred of us remain alive....” No offence meant here to English friends but we in Scotland are just two and a half months away from taking one of the most momentous decision taken in Scotland for over a thousand years. One can almost taste it, freedom.

 

Well we can do the same here in this battle, all that’s needed is the will and the spirit and the conviction that ‘yes we can’ shake off the shackles of repression, subjugation and tyranny.

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I don't know HOW MANY times I have to say this but I will again:

 

- You WILL NOT find a proper job on UJM

- Most listed 'jobs' are fake or seasonal or part time/zero contract

- The site rarely works

- If you must use it UNTICK DWP ACCESS immediately

- Lastly, it IS NOT a job site, it is a DWP spying tool used to dish out sanctions

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i was speaking to a woman at my local job club she was just starting her "business admin course" there and she told me that she will be here for 20weeks and she will be getting her benefit as the job centre have let her take this up she will be 9.30-4 and no signing on for her. i think i might do this and get 20 weeks of computing and thats with your job centre cash still getting payed without going to sign on do u think i should do this as there not many jobs going and maybe do well and get a job with someone 20 weeks and still get your benefit cant argue with this eh!?

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While it may get you off signing-on, you'll most likely still have to show jobsearch evidence to someone, as you're technically still 'unemployed and looking' even while on a course.

 

When I did the 14 weeks with Learning Links (just to get away from Ingeus for a while), I still had to do jobsearch and show it to them, and technically they could report to Ingeus and the JC if I wasn't doing enough. Luckily they were decent people and I had no problems though. Possibly the Jobclub people will expect to still see jobsearching going on and report any failings to the JC. Make sure you know exactly what's involved before you commit yourself to the course.

 

Can't imagine the wonderful JC letting people off signing AND their jobsearch.

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So to update this thread again,

 

Not much has been happening after work programme for me, it's just been weekly signing on and sending me to the odd course here and there.

 

Now I've been notified today I will be placed on mandatory work activity scheme, I really can't be bothered with this. However she did say it'd be something charity based and I thought ok well not so bad I guess.

 

I have to go for 4 weeks full time hours, it also says on the sheet I have to job search and still attend the job centre. This is ridiculous? if I'm basically working full time how will I attend the job centre every week....

 

Has anyone else been sent on MWA? what have your experiences been?

 

I may make a separate thread to find some others who've been sent on it.

 

They also keep hassling me about universal job match in various ways, telling me oh using universal job match is on your claimant commitment etc (Which I know she's trying to use careful language to scare me into using it and allowing her access but I'm not stupid I just nod along knowing she is powerless to make me use it). I will not give them UJM access no chance am I going to open myself up to another line of fire. I usually write my job searching activities down and bring in print off's of jobs I've applied for.

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Your idea to open a separate thread to discuss Mandatory Work Activity is a sound one. Otherwise it could end up being lost and confused among the maze of issues already introduced on this thread.

 

 

As for UJM, the subject has been beaten to death. You can't be forced to use it or into allowing Jobcentre advisers access to it, or sanctioned for refusing to use it or allow Jobcentre advisers access to it. That is the law. End of.

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Jmulv,

In your first post of this thread you mention signing a new Claimant Commitment at your first Post Work Programme Interview. All the clerical work you subsequently describe seems to stem from the requirements as listed on that Claimant Commitment.

 

In the 16th post of this thread you say that your Jobseeker’s Agreement has not been changed.

 

I take it that the benefit you are claiming is Jobseekers Allowance? If that is so, the laws and regulations applicable to Jobseekers Allowance would apply in your case. Claimant Commitment, which is introduced under Universal Credit in the Welfare Reform Act of 2012, would not apply or be legally enforceable if the Judge's directions in the case CJSA/1814/2007, mentioned in post 18, which sets out clearly what the requirements are to qualify for Jobseekers Allowance and what the Jobseeker's Agreement should properly contain, were to apply.

 

Only by flouting the law as set out in that case can any of the commitments that you appear to have accepted be enforced.

 

Unless anyone can point to any particular clause in any subsequent legislation that repeals the relevant sections of the Jobseeker’s Act, or the ruling in the case cited is turned on its head, I can’t see how even ignoring that Claimant Commitment completely would attract a penalty or a sanction.

 

As for myself, I have ignored CC completely and refused to have anything to do with it. Likewise Universal Jobmatch. I got some grief for this, still do, but so far they have not been able to enforce compliance on me.

 

Hi,

 

Yeah i've heard of this. That apparently the claimant commitment if you choose not to follow it entirely will not result in a sanction. I play it safe and generally abide by the rules on my claimant commitment as they're not too bad. They tell me I need to sign on universal job match daily and I haven't done this at all, she talked about that today and pestered me again about universal job match, but I refuse to use it and will just ensure I fill out my work booklet and bring in printouts of my applications.

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Finished pwps in December 2013 and was put back on jsa 25+ with normal 2 week signing

 

does anyone know if i will be put on htw or put back on wp in december 2014

 

have to see advisor next week for first time in about three months

 

 

How long does PWP last?

 

I've been attending it for quite a while now. They haven't really done anything different to help me much aside brow beat me more if I'm honest, I just sit there nod and take it.

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While it may get you off signing-on, you'll most likely still have to show jobsearch evidence to someone, as you're technically still 'unemployed and looking' even while on a course.

 

When I did the 14 weeks with Learning Links (just to get away from Ingeus for a while), I still had to do jobsearch and show it to them, and technically they could report to Ingeus and the JC if I wasn't doing enough. Luckily they were decent people and I had no problems though. Possibly the Jobclub people will expect to still see jobsearching going on and report any failings to the JC. Make sure you know exactly what's involved before you commit yourself to the course.

 

Can't imagine the wonderful JC letting people off signing AND their jobsearch.

 

are u sure?

 

as i spoke to the woman she told me no more job search or going in to the jobcentre or carrying them silly work booklet for 20 weeks and i said u sure u dont have to do job search she went no and thats what the advisor told her and she will be at that course for 20 weeks and dont worry about anything as u will get your job seeker money and she told me to do the same thing as it will give u more experience after it and saves u 20 weeks of jobsearching and lets u keep your mind on a course u wanna do.

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