Me and My Various Benefit Claims and issues

[essexmat]

after the work program i had my jobsearch increased from 10 jobs per week to at least 20 per week and had to go to jobcentre once a week for 6 weeks then after that i got told i had 4 weeks to find my own voluntary work placement or they would put me on a mandatory work scheme which could be anythin frm working in a Garbage Recycling Plant, bag packing in tesco or Litter Picking and General up keep at a public place or building including things like cleaning benches/shelters and removal of Graffiti

 

So you had 4 weeks to find something or be held in the same regards as a convicted criminal? Nice legislation we have in this sickening country

[antone]

Ye this is correct and yeh am going to keep an eye on this one a have my adviser tomorrow for first time since finished the WP so see if she says anything if she does al be sure to tell them it' breaks DPA.

 

Bear in mind that in this situation, it would be the employer (and not the Jobcentre) that had breached DPA regulations.

[antone]

So you had 4 weeks to find something or be held in the same regards as a convicted criminal? Nice legislation we have in this sickening country

 

My wife works for a voluntary sector organisation here in Scotland, and has recently encountered her first "frogmarched there by the DWP" candidate. She has signed her organisation up to the KVV project.

 

Of course, she's happy to accept unemployed people as volunteers, but not if they're only showing up because the alternative is starvation.

[essexmat]

My wife works for a voluntary sector organisation here in Scotland, and has recently encountered her first "frogmarched there by the DWP" candidate. She has signed her organisation up to the KVV project.

 

Of course, she's happy to accept unemployed people as volunteers, but not if they're only showing up because the alternative is starvation.

 

As it should be. I do 2 voluntary roles but through MY CHOICE not a directive. When will it all end?

[boomboomboom]

Bear in mind that in this situation, it would be the employer (and not the Jobcentre) that had breached DPA regulations.

 

ye sorry got mixed up.

 

i hardly doubt they would contact the job centre as they have no proof that i said they could tell them plus job centre have no rights to even take info from a company that there client applied for themselves and not from a job centre order ye.

[antone]

As it should be. I do 2 voluntary roles but through MY CHOICE not a directive. When will it all end?

 

Well, quite. One of the things she strongly objects to is the idea of sending things like attendance reports to the DWP. Her organisation is not interested in policing these workfare schemes, and it would poison their reputation if they did so. If an unemployed person wishes to help out, they're more than welcome, but it must be truly voluntary.

[antone]

ye sorry got mixed up.

 

i hardly doubt they would contact the job centre as they have no proof that i said they could tell them plus job centre have no rights to even take info from a company that there client applied for themselves and not from a job centre order ye.

 

Yeah, I'd be surprised if they actually do contact the Jobcentre. Plus, what kind of employer are they, where they have to threaten you to get you to consider working for them?

[Tj rodgers]

I had 3 weeks to find my voluntary work left but here in Wirral we have bout 4 very small jobcentres and one Massive one in Birkenhead Town centre which has four floors and everybody frm the smaller local jcp offices that finish work program all got sent to the big jobcentre in Birkenhead for Post work program support as all the staff on the top floor are trained to only deal with people who are long term unemployed but last month the local government have pushed us forward to become part of universal credit which is post code based and so what i got told is the advisors from the main jobcentre in town who deal with post work program are being split up and sending one or two out to each small local jcp office so im now going back to signin on at my local jcp in our village so things might change if i hav a new advisor or the one i had in town could get sent here by coinsidence in which case my situation wont change but either way if you finish the Work Programme your better off finding your own voluntary work that you dont mind doing before they send u on a madatory work scheme where u cant choose what it is u do

[boomboomboom]

I had 3 weeks to find my voluntary work left but here in Wirral we have bout 4 very small jobcentres and one Massive one in Birkenhead Town centre which has four floors and everybody frm the smaller local jcp offices that finish work program all got sent to the big jobcentre in Birkenhead for Post work program support as all the staff on the top floor are trained to only deal with people who are long term unemployed but last month the local government have pushed us forward to become part of universal credit which is post code based and so what i got told is the advisors from the main jobcentre in town who deal with post work program are being split up and sending one or two out to each small local jcp office so im now going back to signin on at my local jcp in our village so things might change if i hav a new advisor or the one i had in town could get sent here by coinsidence in which case my situation wont change but either way if you finish the Work Programme your better off finding your own voluntary work that you dont mind doing before they send u on a madatory work scheme where u cant choose what it is u do

 

aww i see u still looking for work?

 

ye a know they will put u on one of there work schemes but i think they should give u a list and let u choose something that might help u instead of me wanting into retail or IT and then getting put in to a place where to cook or something that has nothing to do with the work i want to work in.

 

am sure if these job centre advisers where in your shoes they would not be wanting put into a work scheme that they are not wanting to be in or comfortable.

[boomboomboom]

me and a few others where chatting about the sanctions we have had and we were thinking why do the job centre not have like a text or email or give them alert on there UJM to say they have an appointment a day before they have to come in like ingeus have in plan where they send u a text alert to tell u about your appointment.

 

as the people i was speaking to say they had been sanction for been a minute late or they were on time but the job centre told them they were late.

 

what do yous think do u think they should have a alert system in charge to let people know there appointments a day before.

[Tj rodgers]

me and a few others where chatting about the sanctions we have had and we were thinking why do the job centre not have like a text or email or give them alert on there UJM to say they have an appointment a day before they have to come in like ingeus have in plan where they send u a text alert to tell u about your appointment.

 

as the people i was speaking to say they had been sanction for been a minute late or they were on time but the job centre told them they were late.

 

what do yous think do u think they should have a alert system in charge to let people know there appointments a day before.

If u google "Do - it " website you should be able to find a website that has a list of your local charities lookin for volunteer's

[Mr.P]

I had 4 weeks to find my own voluntary work placement or they would put me on a mandatory work scheme which could be anything from working in a Garbage Recycling Plant, bag packing in tesco [...]

 

If you get "offered" one of these positions, ask them how it meets the criteria of "for the benefit of the community".

 

Packing bags at Tesco or sorting through household waste displaces paid workers. It is quite possible, under these circumstances, that you would be entitled to NMW.

[boomboomboom]

If u google "Do - it " website you should be able to find a website that has a list of your local charities lookin for volunteer's

 

ye i do have a look on these websites that offer these voluntary jobs.

 

are u still looking for voluntary jobs? or u almost on to the forced to work scheme the jcp are offering

[boomboomboom]

If you get "offered" one of these positions, ask them how it meets the criteria of "for the benefit of the community".

 

Packing bags at Tesco or sorting through household waste displaces paid workers. It is quite possible, under these circumstances, that you would be entitled to NMW.

 

a was thinking "for the benefit of the community" but how is packing bags at tesco a benefit of the community outside would be but i really dont see how in a massive store packing bags is a the benefit of the community". people might think it is but to me it is not.

[boomboomboom]

see if i was to take a voluntary job if it says only 2hours per week will that stop me from getting put on the job centre forced work scheme? or does it not matter how many hours it is u can take your own voluntary and stops u from going on there scheme?

[Tj rodgers]

see if i was to take a voluntary job if it says only 2hours per week will that stop me from getting put on the job centre forced work scheme? or does it not matter how many hours it is u can take your own voluntary and stops u from going on there scheme?

I was told 12 to 18 hours per week would be acceptable and he recomended to try 12 hours over 2 days coz u are still expected to do jobsearch

[RebeccaPidgeon]

a was thinking "for the benefit of the community" but how is packing bags at tesco a benefit of the community outside would be but i really dont see how in a massive store packing bags is a the benefit of the community". people might think it is but to me it is not.

 

If, worst comes to the worst, and JCP mandate you to go to an organisation arranging the placements, which will vary according to the Region where you are based (details from http://refuted.org.uk/author/securingyourrights/ ), then confirm that if at any time you want to do voluntary work, you make that voluntary decision yourself, but not under any threat of coercion. However, if they arrange an interview for a placement, simply attend, and make it clear from the outset at the interview that, if the company is not prepared to employ you to do the job, then whereas you will do what is expected of you, you will be taking the matter forward through an Industrial Tribunal and reporting the employer to HMRC for investigation into potential infringement of Tax Legislation.

 

This issue arises because if you are told to report to a business at set hours (say, Monday-Sat 0900-1700 hrs), told what to do, how to do it, when to do it, under the supervision of someone within the business, then you are subject to a Defacto Contract of Employment. Legally, you ate entitled to at least National Minimum Wage.

 

As highlighted through http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/work_w/work_rights_at_work_e/contracts_of_employment.htm

It is common for an employer to call someone self-employed, or a ‘casual worker’ or a ‘trainee’, when that person is really an employee. Employers do this in order to avoid having to pay tax and national insurance for their employees and to try to avoid them having employment rights. It is irrelevant what your employer calls you, whether you are known, for example, as self employed, an agency worker, or a casual worker

Additionally,

How to tell if someone is an employee or not

The following factors will all help you decide whether you are an employee or self-employed when you want to find out what your employment rights are:-

 

• does your employer tell you what work to do and how to do it (even if you are left alone to actually carry out the work). Does your employer provide you with work, or do you have to go out and find your own work to do. If your employer controls the work to be done and provides the work, you will be an employee
  
• how you are paid. If you are paid a regular amount of pay at regular intervals, rather than being paid per job done, this indicates you are an employee
  
• who is responsible for getting the work done. If you have to find someone else, such as a sub-contractor or a friend, to do the work if you are unable to, this would indicate you are self-employed. If your employer finds someone else to do the work if, for example, you are off sick, this would indicate you are an employee
  
• who provides tools and materials to do the work. If your employer is responsible for supplying main tools and machinery and materials, with you responsible for supplying only a few of your own tools, you are likely to be an employee.
  

If, after reading through the factors under the heading How to tell if you are an employee or not, you think you are an employee, you will have a contract of employment. This does not have to be written down. A contract of employment is agreed between the employer and the employee and can be a verbal contract. See below.

 

You will note from

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/prosecutions/crim-inv-policy.htm

that

HMRC Criminal Investigation Policy

HMRC's aim is to secure the highest level of compliance with the law and regulations governing direct and indirect taxes and other regimes for which they are responsible. Criminal investigation, with a view to prosecution by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) (Opens new Window) in England and Wales or the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service (COPFS) in Scotland and the Public Prosecution Service Northern Ireland (PPSNI) in Northern Ireland, is an important part of HMRC's overall enforcement strategy.

 

It is HMRC's policy to deal with fraud by use of the cost effective civil fraud investigation procedures under Code of Practice 9 (PDF 320K) wherever appropriate. Criminal Investigation will be reserved for cases where HMRC needs to send a strong deterrent message or where the conduct involved is such that only a criminal sanction is appropriate.

 

However, HMRC reserves complete discretion to conduct a criminal investigation in any case and to carry out these investigations across a range of offences and in all the areas for which the Commissioners of HMRC have responsibility.

 

Examples of the kind of circumstances in which HMRC will generally consider commencing a criminal, rather than civil investigation are:

 

• in cases of organised criminal gangs attacking the tax system or systematic frauds where losses represents a serious threat to the tax base, including conspiracy
  
• where an individual holds a position of trust or responsibility
  
• where deliberate concealment, deception, conspiracy or corruption is suspected
  

When considering whether a case should be investigated using the civil fraud investigation procedures under Code of Practice 9 or is the subject of a criminal investigation, one factor will be whether the taxpayer(s) has made a complete and unprompted disclosure of the offences committed.

 

 

Although you will not be sanctioned, any any sanction doubt would never be upheld, this approach may make the employer think again. Does the employer wish to continue with a course of action that may see them in court, facing a criminal investigation at their complicity in organised tax fraud, or do they want the easy way out. They will either offer you paid employment, or return you to the Job Centre. Additionally, there is nothing wrong with you citing the name of i) the Job Centre Plus Admin Officer sending to the Placement Contract Holder (this may be G4S, Learn Direct), ii) the named individual within the Placement Contract Holder, in addition to the organisation hosting the placement through any reports to HMRC

[Mr.P]

No specific guidance has been published in respect to these new HtW and CWP schemes, so we need to look at existing WP guidance. This is what the DWP has said on the issue of NMW:

National Minimum Wage Act

 

54. It is the provider’s responsibility to ensure that all work experience and

community benefit work placements are in line with National Minimum

Wage regulations. As part of their considerations, providers should

consider the following points:

• As a general rule, persons participating in a relevant Government

Scheme – which includes the Work Programme – designed to

provide training, work experience or temporary work, or to assist in

seeking or obtaining work, do not qualify for the National Minimum

Wage (NMW) in respect of work done for an employer as part of

that scheme.

• However, there are some important exceptions:

• Participants will qualify for the NMW if they are regarded as

employees of the employer AND are paid for their work by the

employer. (Payment of expenses can be ignored for these

purposes.)

• Even if they are not paid by the employer, participants will

qualify for the NMW if they are regarded as employees of the

employer AND are participating in a trial period of work with that

employer, in which the employer has agreed to offer a job to the

participant if they successfully complete the trial, in cases where

the trial is in excess of six weeks.

• "Employment" has a wide meaning, and participants are likely to be

regarded as employees if they agree voluntarily to take up the

placement with a particular employer.

• The NMW is very unlikely to apply to participants mandated to

participate in unpaid work experience or an unpaid community

benefit work placement through the Work Programme, or to

Participants who volunteer to take part in an unpaid placement of

either type which is not a work trial exceeding 6 weeks. Where a

claimant’s expenses are paid, this still counts as unpaid work

experience or unpaid community work placement. There are no

minimum or maximum periods for unpaid work experience or

unpaid community benefit work placements; however, any activity

to which a claimant is mandated must be reasonable in their

circumstances.

 

Updated: 26/04/ 2013 12 V6.00

Chapter 3c Work Programme Provider Guidance

 

The above is extracted from the current guidance, and the way I read it, it would seem to suggest that the DWP acknowledge that some conscripts do qualify for NMW - Anyone being mandated on to the latest scheme(s) should be reading the documentation very carefully and insisting on written clarification of any questionable points.

 

If it were myself being "volunteered" for one of these placements, I'd be collecting evidence to support a claim of employee status and saving up for court fees.

[boomboomboom]

No specific guidance has been published in respect to these new HtW and CWP schemes, so we need to look at existing WP guidance. This is what the DWP has said on the issue of NMW:

 

Ye I was looking to but could not find any other guidance than the one u just put up.

 

I will put up any info I get from my JCP adviser today about the HTW scheme

[Mr.P]

A response to a recent F.o.I. request: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/community_work_programme#incoming-494667

 

It is worth having a read of the tender document to be found here: https://online.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk/Common/View%20Notice.aspx?site=1000&lang=en&noticeid=1170725&fs=true

 

The DWP have specified the following:

Each work placement must be of benefit to the community over and above the benefit of providing a placement to the individual. The role can work directly or indirectly towards the community benefit goal of the host organisation and can also include working towards the profit of the host organisation provided the majority of the role is dedicated towards delivery of benefit to the community.

and:

Each claimant is expected to participate fully in a full-time work placement, which will last for up to 26 weeks (within the allotted time of 30 weeks) alongside provider-led jobsearch. During the claimant’s work placement participation period, on a weekly basis, the claimant must undertake:

• 30 hours* on work placement provision; and,
  
• A minimum of 4 hours and a maximum of 10 hours of provider-led jobsearch.
  

The phrase "community benefit" is repeated throughout the document - An attempt to suggest that packing bags in Tesco meets the requirements of the amended JSA regulations perhaps....

 

If anyone is unfortunate enough to be conscripted in to one of these placements, maintain your own personal timesheets and get them signed off each day by a manager. Keep notes as to what you are required to do, and get written conformation (from a manager). Also keep bus/train tickets - The placement provider (not the "employer") is required to refund all travel expenses (it is in the contract).

 

If your placement is for the benefit of a retail chain's profit margin and of zero value to the community, consider an employment tribunal or small claims court action to receive backdated pay - That is where timesheets and job requirements will come in handy.

 

With Christmas coming - I know, too damned early - A number of major employers will be looking at staffing levels and ways to cut costs. I predict a re-run of the Homebase & Argos sc ams from 2011/12 where overtime was cut and hours made up by conscripts on MWA.

[jasta11]

'..and can also include working towards the profit of the host organisation

 

Sums it all up perfectly doesn't it. Carte blanche to exploit everyone.

[boomboomboom]

A response to a recent F.o.I. request: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/community_work_programme#incoming-494667

 

It is worth having a read of the tender document to be found here: https://online.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk/Common/View%20Notice.aspx?site=1000&lang=en&noticeid=1170725&fs=true

 

The DWP have specified the following:

and:

The phrase "community benefit" is repeated throughout the document - An attempt to suggest that packing bags in Tesco meets the requirements of the amended JSA regulations perhaps....

 

If anyone is unfortunate enough to be conscripted in to one of these placements, maintain your own personal timesheets and get them signed off each day by a manager. Keep notes as to what you are required to do, and get written conformation (from a manager). Also keep bus/train tickets - The placement provider (not the "employer") is required to refund all travel expenses (it is in the contract).

 

If your placement is for the benefit of a retail chain's profit margin and of zero value to the community, consider an employment tribunal or small claims court action to receive backdated pay - That is where timesheets and job requirements will come in handy.

 

With Christmas coming - I know, too damned early - A number of major employers will be looking at staffing levels and ways to cut costs. I predict a re-run of the Homebase & Argos sc ams from 2011/12 where overtime was cut and hours made up by conscripts on MWA.

 

i dont really see how "bag packing at tesco" is a benefit to the community am sure people in the community would probz agree that there is more things to help the community than standing in a big supermarket packing bags.

 

but i guess the dwp etc know better than anyone (NOT)

[Chester6]

i dont really see how "bag packing at tesco" is a benefit to the community am sure people in the community would probz agree that there is more things to help the community than standing in a big supermarket packing bags.

 

but i guess the dwp etc know better than anyone (NOT)

 

Mine was to be in a shop that help communities in Pakistan so a little bit further then here or the UK but I think paying the community back is a lie they tell

[Mr.P]

i dont really see how "bag packing at tesco" is a benefit to the community

 

Quite simply, it is not.

 

If you get a placement in Tesco, Poundland, or any other retail store, keep note of anything/everything that would give weight to the claim of being an employee - Discounted goods, token payments for meals (or free meals in a staff canteen), requests to put in additional hours or cover absences. Any/all of the above could be used to support a claim of "employee" and therefore the entitlement to a fair wage.

[boomboomboom]

i had my jcp adviser appointment today and i have been put on to "my claimant commitment! instead of jsa .

 

been giving a big booklet called "my work plan"

 

got to go through a booklet ticking things off that they ask if i have did this or have this etc.

am not sure if anyone has this new booklet?

 

I HAVE to job search after breakfast and after tea everyday!

 

they have actions in plan.

i will use jobsites and employer websites to find and apply for jobs i can do (daily)

i will log in to my UJM account to find and apply for i can do (daily)

i will contact employers directly ask about any apply for jobs i can do (weekly)

i will check newspaper job vacancy sections and apply to those i can do (weekly)

i will respond promptly to contacts and notifications from employers and jobsites (daily)

i will consider what i need to do to make effective applications to the jobs i find (ongoing)

i will ensure i have an up to date CV that i can tailor tfor jobs i apply for (ongoing)

 

and another things i have to write down what i am going to do including how when and where.

for my next appointment like this week i have to send cvs away on tuesday and fridays and got other things to do.

 

but all this just for a stupid £114 every 2 weeks!

 

i have a few weeks before they pick what is best for me on the HTW scheme