Erudio using state benefits, refuse deferement, i want to go to court over this

[WarrenBuffet]

Dx as i understand it, if you took your first loan under the old style loans then the rest of your student loans would be qualified as the old style (pre98) loans. Im guessing the op just managed to get her first loan under the pre98 criteria.

[dx100uk]

hope fully so

 

however a CCA request for each loans agreement will sort that out.

which needs to be done anyway

dx

[sabby1978]

Ok sorry for coming back so late,

 

to confirm mine is a mortgage style loan

original one taken out in 1997 and the new style loan didn't apply to me because it was introduce the following year

and was only for new applicant.

 

I called national debt line today quite useless rally seemed more interested in what debt I had

and whether they could negotiate on behalf not all interested in the legality or morality of this issue but here's what I found out.

 

Welfare benefits are consider income

however they were unclear about my query about the income threshold,

she said another person had my query last week and they had contacted the SLC with regards to the terms and conditions of the mortgage style loans.

 

She wasn't very clear but from what I can gather it comes down to the wording of the term income on the original agreement

and whether it said income from earnings and whether the agreement was subject to terms and conditions,

if it said the agreement in relation this is was subject to terms and conditions

then they could change the agreement as the original lender could have.

 

When I asked whether I would have a chance to challenge if it didn't say the above

she said she didn't know and I would need to seek legal advice.

 

As I said she was more interested in negotiating a settlement on my behalf.

 

She said the DCA could take me to court if they so wished and they could leave default notices on a credit file,

she advised me to send my deferment form back.

 

Fortunately I know a solicitor, I do some work with him.

 

Not sure his specialism is in debt law but im hoping he will be able to give me some sound legal advice

and if not will be able to point me in the right direction as soon as I know anything I will report back.

[sabby1978]

dx100uk, I don't want to contradict you but

 

in an agreement if the clause subject to terms and conditions is stated they can change the agreement,

 

I know because my manager consulted a lawyer when certain elements of our employment contract changed

after we tupeed to another organisation and

 

its reinforced by what the woman from National debt line said but I am going to request original credit agreements

[sabby1978]

yep your are right Warren that's what happened with me!

[renegadeimp]

dx100uk, I don't want to contradict you but in an agreement if the clause subject to terms and conditions is stated they can change the agreement, I know because my manager consulted a lawyer when certain elements of our employment contract changed after we tupeed to another organisation and its reinforced by what the woman from National debt line said but I am going to request original credit agreements

 

The OC can change the agreement. The DCA cannot.

[WarrenBuffet]

Sabby, i do not wish to contradict you but i have the old pre98 T&C's here infront of me and dx is correct.

 

They cannot change the T&C's they are bound by them,

it is the reason so many of us win disputes with them when they attempt to write their own rules.

 

Trust me when i tell you they will not take you to court as their lies will be demonstrated to the judge.

 

....Renegadeimp beat me to it.

[dx100uk]

someone really needs to go post on that mumsnet thread and pu them right.

 

they and sadly to some extent sabby

 

you are falling inro the age old traps that DCA's set to spoof people into

thinking what they are saying and doing is correct..IT IS NOT.

 

a debt 'buyer' and lets be VERY VERY CLEAR HERE

this is what the ARE.

 

Cannot change ANY of the terms & Conditions, Nor change anything that is written

on the original Agreement WHATSOEVER.

 

one further point which disturbs me too reading that mumsnet and this thread..

 

there is a hidden 'belief' that because this WAS a Gov't 'debt'

this gives Arrows more powers than usual...IT DOES NOT!.

 

THese loans that have been sold can now be treated EXACTLY the same as any other 'debt'

that a DCA might have i'e a credit card/catalogue/bank loan etc etc.

 

people are reading far too much into this situation.

the gov't has SOLD the debt, and ALL RIGHTS or Governing of it.

 

dx

[zohar]

I've been sent the paperwork to defer and I'm only receiving, JSA, housing benefit and council tax benefit, so

 

I'm assuming that my deferral application will be approved, as it has been in previous years by the SLC.

 

They're asking for the original award letter for JSA which I no longer have and I

 

called them yesterday and they told me that I could get a letter from the jobcentre confirming I was in receipt of JSA.

 

Does anyone know if the jobcentre will do this?

 

I don't understand why they don't just send out a form like the one SLC used to send out which the jobcentre filled in and then stamped for you.

 

The form also states that you can send them bank statements highlighting the JSA payments but I feel reluctant to do that.

 

It also asks you to fill out bank details for Direct Debit instruction. Is this essential?

 

And I'm unclear why they need to know about accommodation status ie renting/owner occupied.

 

One thing the guy told me yesterday was that 'deferrals are on hold', which is why there's no deadline for getting the paperwork back to them.

[sabby1978]

Hey DX,

 

I do appreciate your responses!

 

I know the old age tricks of DCA's we may do this etc etc and their techniques to extort money where they have no right to.

 

My concerns are that I have been acknowledging this debt by deferring.

 

I will re-send my deferment form but will include a letter saying that if they attempt to make me repay

they will be breaking the terms of the original agreement

 

however as I said earlier I have worked so incredibly hard to rebuild my credit rating and pay off debts that I accumulated when I had a breakdown

and I don't want these ppl sabotaging it and

 

it is my understanding that the government gave them powers to access credit files and leave default notices if ppl do not repay,

 

u can imagine I want to avoid this.

 

I have contacted a solicitor who I do some work with occasionally

 

so hopefully fingers crossed he will be able to give me some free legal advice

 

which I will most def post on here

[WarrenBuffet]

Zohar, Write down the telephone number of your jobcentre and tell them to ring and find out themselves, do not give your National Insurance No to them, just your name and address and tell them that your jobcentre have told you they will charge you hence why you refuse to do it for them. (last bit is nonsense but use it)

 

As for owner or renter just write N/A (its none of their business)

As for bank statement, tell them to jog on as the jobcentre will give them proof of income.

As for bank account no - tell them you do not have a bank account any longer.

 

Oh and send your deferral 'signed for delivery' £1.70 and take a photocopy of your deferment.

[dx100uk]

I've been sent the paperwork to defer and I'm only receiving, JSA, housing benefit and council tax benefit, so I'm assuming that my deferral application will be approved, as it has been in previous years by the SLC. They're asking for the original award letter for JSA which I no longer have and I called them yesterday and they told me that I could get a letter from the jobcentre confirming I was in receipt of JSA. Does anyone know if the jobcentre will do this? I don't understand why they don't just send out a form like the one SLC used to send out which the jobcentre filled in and then stamped for you. The form also states that you can send them bank statements highlighting the JSA payments but I feel reluctant to do that.

 

It also asks you to fill out bank details for Direct Debit instruction. Is this essential?

 

And I'm unclear why they need to know about accommodation status ie renting/owner occupied.

 

One thing the guy told me yesterday was that 'deferrals are on hold', which is why there's no deadline for getting the paperwork back to them.

 

please start a new thread

 

dx

[sabby1978]

deferrals are temporarily on hold and

 

on my deferment letter it tells me when my deferment period ends.

 

SLC also asked for proof which could be by way of a bank statement so nothing has really changed there.

 

You should be fine unless yyour housing benefit is high,

this is what has cause me the most problem and has taken me over their deferment threshold.

 

Warren as u have a copy of the agreement can you post on here and specifically point to the points that would hinder them from pursuing legal action

because that may help us to understand why the debt cannot pursued.

 

I am sure that you understand that there is a lot of confusion because there are differing versions about this matter every which way you turn

[dx100uk]

who said you weren't deferring?

 

we or you are not saying you don't owe it [might]

 

rather, they are not entitled to the extra info

 

I also think your worry about the CRA file is wrongly founded.

 

dx

[WarrenBuffet]

What would hinder them would be that they are not the Original Creditor and the cost of court action.

 

It is cheaper and easier to put default on Credit Record.

 

Also, they paid peanuts for your debt probably a penny or two pence in the pound and its not economically attractive for them to waste money

fighting people who take them on when there are plenty of suckers around who bow down to their demands.

 

PS: I have invited LINK DCA to take me to court by letter but they appear very reluctant to do so.

[oldstudent]

Sabby & all others - worth looking at the Mumsnet thread where someone has kindly posted a copy of an original SLC loan agreement detailing the terms and conditions

[sabby1978]

i am about to write a letter to a ccompany my deferment

 

which will say that in the original student loan contract gross income was defined as the amount you earn before any deductions

(such as income tax and national insurance) are taken from your pay hence they cannot include welfare benefits in the calculation of gross pay.

 

I want to write that as they are not the original lender

 

they have no power to change the original term,

 

can anyone tell me or point me to legislation or law that states this soi can include in my letter.

 

I thank you in advance for any help.

 

Im feeling much more positive, thanks guys

[dx100uk]

at this stage I would not write any explanation letter

 

you are assuming they will want the info.

 

arrow know full well the rules regarding the consumer credit act.

 

send back the deferement form

minus what you DONT have to tell them

compared to the old style form from SLC.

 

if they want he additional info

then they will willy wave at you..

 

its THEN that you send your letter

 

dx

[oldstudent]

Sabby, I would agree with dx to the extent that I wouldn't rush to show my hand immediately, unless it's impossible to reply without doing so - that may be the case in your situation.

 

I have to say though, that on the surface, it seems as though all benefits (except disability related) are counted as gross income. If you're convinced that you have a case to argue then of course, you must, but it seems a bit shaky to me - but... I'm no expert and what have you got to lose, if you'll end up over the threshold by not disputing.

[WarrenBuffet]

If you are in receipt of State Benefits be it JSA, Income Support etc, etc then you are entitled to defer.

 

If you have a look over past threads theere are numerous examples that prove this point.

 

NB*

 

Please be aware that your DCA will attempt to tell you otherwise in a vain attempt to extract your money. I

 

am an example and when dx pointed this out to me i challenged them on several occasions for an explanation

....... I am still waiting on their reply,

 

i cancelled my SO and they have not even sent me a default notice

 

although they keep threatening though.

 

The reason being that i have told them i will report them for vexatious actions and expose their lies and frankly illegal activities.

[oldstudent]

Warren,

are you sure that simply being in receipt of any state benefit automatically entitles you to defer?

 

After all, child benefit is a state benefit and is open to any parent regardless of income.

 

A borrower wouldn't be able to defer, if their income is over the repayment threshold simply because they get a state benefit.

 

My understanding of Sabby's dilemma is that she is working and earning an income (which is of itself below the repayment threshold)

 

however, she also receives benefits which, when added to her income from employment, push her over the repayment threshold.

 

Her dispute is that these benefits should not be included in her Gross income declaration

- if that were the case she would then be able to defer repayment of her loan.

 

However, it seems Erudio are saying that ONLY 'disabilty related benefits' do not count as part of Gross income.

 

Housing benefit, child benefit etc DO count as Gross income (according to my understanding and Erudio's position)

[renegadeimp]

You really need to stop believing what a DCA tells you.

[WarrenBuffet]

Oldstudent, i do hear what you are saying but i guess Sabby could argue if her housing benefit is paid directly to her landlord then its not income on her account?

 

I am not in any way an expert in this area, infact im far from it. I would prefer for someone who is to answer. I would have thought that if your benefits including child benefit brought you over the threshold then the child may suffer could be a reasonable argument?

 

.....Thinking about is it 'Taxable Income' the key? ie: you dont pay taxes on JSA , Child Benefit etc but Sabby does pay tax on her £900 net income

[sabby1978]

Eurdio are saying all benefits (apart from DLA) count as gross income.

 

The SLC considered gross income as the amount you earn before any deductions (such as income tax and NI) are taken from your pay

 

welfare benefits were not included.

 

Though old student you are right, outside of the issue with student loans

all benefits would be considered gross income

 

but SLC were very clear in their definition of what gross income was in relation to the issue of deferment.

 

As everyone is saying a DCA cant change terms and conditions. I feel so relieved!

 

Dx, I hear what you are saying also and

 

I had no intention of submitting any more than I would've previously,

 

I will also submit the deferment form and will not show my hand fully but

 

I will write a brief note stipulating that the original contract stated gross income was from earnings not gross income from state benefits,

 

im doing this because I have already spoken with them about the matter and hopefully this will conclude the matter.

 

If they try to make me pay thereafter which they probably will then I will go in full guns blazing,

 

are you saying that I would need to refer to the consumer credit act, is there a section in particular?

 

And in a follow up letter would I write that the account was in dispute

 

because they had unlawfully changed the terms and conditions.

 

Sorry guys I just like to know everything and prepare for every eventuality.

 

Well it seems quite a debate has started but thank you again for all your help.

 

[kirkbyinfurnesslad]

They cant make you pay anything