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yeah,keep us all posted,love to know how you get on,you should take the opportunity to go into kwikfit and take advantage of their free brake test,they also do a free battery test and a free tyre test,i dunno how they make any money doing all them tests for free but I think it would be mutually beneficial to you and whatever franchised kwikfit depot you go to!!

 

I would stay away from them, have you seen watchdog ? I wouldn't trust them with my bike, will kep you posted, just to annoy some of you:-x

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Salimnina, you managing to change the currently held view of the English courts would not annoy anyone here, the basis of the English legal system is case law and to date with the scant information that you have made available to CAG it does not seem very likely that you will succeed as with the information that you have given us you do not have a case.

However that is not to say you will not be able to convince a court that your view of the world is correct and you will change case law which will allow anyone to bring a claim if a second hand item is not as new - after all people were once put to death for saying the world was not flat but someone eventually proved its round, I do wish you all the luck in the world (and you will need it) but i for one think that you will be very disappointed with the outcome unless you have more information and actual evidence than you have currently shared with us.

Anyway kudos to you for wanting to change the entire English legal system but think you will end up holding the bill.

It is easier to enter a rich man than for a camel to pass a needle

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Just came across this as I don't get much time to contribute as much as I did these days. Must admit to not reading the entire thread.

 

But from post #1, I think the OP MAY have an avenue to explore. He seems to think that the "private" seller is in fact a trader. We all know that it is in fact illegal for a trader to pose as a private seller and they only do it to avoid their responsibilities under the SOGA.

 

It seems therefore, that the car MAY have some inherent faults which were present at the point of sale. In which case, the OP would have a legitimate reason to write to the seller and ask him to rectify (providing that he can show him as a trader). The OP already states that the keeper details on the V5 do not match the seller. That's a sure sign that all is not well.

 

My advice would be to formally write to the seller and ask him to rectify the faults otherwise you will seek legal advice into whether the car was in fact sold privately or not.

 

If the seller dosn't play ball and the OP is convinced he is a trader, then he should contact trading standards via his local CAB for face to face advice. TS should be interested into the possibility that a trader posing as a private seller.

 

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Well, it's not that I don't like the answers, it's the way it was put forward, people come here for help, and the law is clear on this:

 

 

The Sale of Goods Act 1979 makes it an implied term of the contract that goods be as described, of satisfactory quality and fit for purpose.

 

 

That's not correct. Although private sales do have some protection, you and your car will only come under SOGA S13(1) which is 'Sale by Description' and then only if you never saw the car before handing over your money. If you saw the car before handing over money, then the sale by description does not apply.

 

 

I have to agree with the others in that the servicing history was complete.

 

 

If you are intending to take this through the courts, then your only real hope is as Sailor Sam says above, if he is a trader.

You should have a phone number at least for him, so buy and scour Auto Trader to see if he has advertised any further vehicles, then you can go for him.

Enlist the help of a friend if necessary to enquire about any further cars if you find them.

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given your age then you need to go to the dr more often and get a check up, if you need hip replacement then that's it, or a transplant,otherwise you wont make it, depending on how serious it can be, but surely if you need glasses then you have to wear them and inform the DVLA, you can't do without, you can't just say that to the DVLA can you ? your statement is true but you cannot pretend that there is nothing wrong with you when in fact you are not getting fit anymore and you can't do certain things that people would expect you to do, I suggest you go the gym and make sure you tell them your health problem and don't expect them to know what you have just told us.

If you want to be sold and someone inspects you, unless he's a doctor, then there is no way in finding out about you health problem by just checking your wide mouth open and teeth.

People wake up, we need faith ! which suggest that you don't believe in

Sorry, couldn't reply any earlier.

I went for a 10k run as every monday and thursday of the last 10 years.

Gym is not for me, I get enough exercise chopping logs as a volonteer of the national trust.

Yes, there's a lot wrong with me if you check every cell of my body on the microscope, but the same can be said about a brand new car.

You are being spiteful to a lot of us just because you have no case whatsoever.

A 9 year old car comes with wear and tear.

Fact!

Full service history means that the service book has been stamped at the required intervals and in better scenarios each stamp is accompanied by a receipt and credit card payment slip.

The advisory notes written by the mechanic servicing the car are a way to scare people like you and make them repair something that doesn't need to.

You are trying to climb a glass wall to nowhere.

Just use the car and when something goes wrong fix it.

For the time being the car is ok for a 9 year old vehicle and there's nothing you can claim off the seller.

So I suggest you chill out and stop being spiteful.

Arrogance is a tool used to cover up ignorance.

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Just came across this as I don't get much time to contribute as much as I did these days. Must admit to not reading the entire thread.

 

But from post #1, I think the OP MAY have an avenue to explore. He seems to think that the "private" seller is in fact a trader. We all know that it is in fact illegal for a trader to pose as a private seller and they only do it to avoid their responsibilities under the SOGA.

 

It seems therefore, that the car MAY have some inherent faults which were present at the point of sale. In which case, the OP would have a legitimate reason to write to the seller and ask him to rectify (providing that he can show him as a trader). The OP already states that the keeper details on the V5 do not match the seller. That's a sure sign that all is not well.

 

My advice would be to formally write to the seller and ask him to rectify the faults otherwise you will seek legal advice into whether the car was in fact sold privately or not.

 

If the seller dosn't play ball and the OP is convinced he is a trader, then he should contact trading standards via his local CAB for face to face advice. TS should be interested into the possibility that a trader posing as a private seller.

 

 

But there is a difference between inherent faults and fair wear and tear that should be expected with a 9 year old car with 83k on the clock. I don’t think surface rust on a bit of pipework on the underside of the car could be counted as an inherent fault regardless whether the seller is a private seller or a trader.

It is easier to enter a rich man than for a camel to pass a needle

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But there is a difference between inherent faults and fair wear and tear that should be expected with a 9 year old car with 83k on the clock. I don’t think surface rust on a bit of pipework on the underside of the car could be counted as an inherent fault regardless whether the seller is a private seller or a trader.

 

I am fully aware that there is a difference between "wear and tear" and inherent faults thanks. But the question begs, why did the seller "remove" the advisory information from the last service paperwork? Plus there are a couple of items on the list that could be argued as not being wear and tear such as the heater matrix leak.

 

In any event, if the OP believes that the "trader" is masquerading as a private seller, he should report the fact to trading standards. It follows that traders doing this obviously have reason to try and avoid any comeback under the SOGA.

 

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The advisories are irrelevant in any case as they are subjective and not an objective measure of the cars condition. What Sam says in his previous post has some merit as the game does indeed change but even then the "advisories" are still no reason to pursue on any car be it sold by a trader or not. They are just not major issues of any sort.

 

It's quite pathetic really that Salmonella still seems to skirt around the questions being asked and the advice being given, much of it sound advice from people with decades of experience not just technical but legal as well.

 

What would help is if she could post exactly what 4X4 she has bought as at the moment we don't know if its a cheapo Asian car or something that is considered premium.

 

It would then be possible to gauge risk to a certain extent.

 

Has anyone checked the money saver site as I bet the same complaint from the same poster is there as nobody could be this stupid to ignore what is being said on this site, unless they are being wound up that there is a case on another site????

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In addition to what I posted previously, what should be remembered is that the SOGA specifically covers the way a consumer is swayed into making the decision in buying a car or not. So again, I wonder why the seller "removed" the advisories, even though they were not that serious. It seems pretty clear to me that it was done so not to put the OP off in buying the car. It also seems pretty clear that the OP would probably not of purchased the car had he of known about the advisories.

 

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I was thinking about this last night and a question came into my head, how did the seller "remove the advisory notes"? on the basis that the buyer obtained the infomation from the service garage it was still on their system. Its not somthing that you would record in the service book, all the service books i have ever seen have just the garages stamp in the a date, signature and milage of when the service was completed. they weren't advisories from the MOT.

 

So, they must have been on a seperate piece of paper, perhaps the recipt from the service, and perhaps like the garage i use on a totally seperate piece of paper that in stuck in the envlope when you get it back from the service. last time i took my car for service one of the advisories was that the rear wiper blade was starting to perish.

 

Since it is a private company writing out a list of work that they think at some point in the future might need doing rather that a person in a professional and regulatory role (mot inspector etc) then advisories have to be viewed with a certain level of suspisison as they could and I am not suggesting that they would but they could be a company that likes to inflate their thru put in the service department. if you went into kwik-fit and they told you that somthing needed doing would you get it done there and then, well looknig on CAG i would guess the answer would be no for their reputation for finding faults that do not exist.

 

Also if as the OP belives the seller is an actual trader rather than a private seller (which has not yest been proven eiither way and you can sell a certain number of vehicles per year as a private indervidual before you are classed as a trader from a tax perspective) he may also have been a mechanic and viewed the issues raised by the servicing garage and did not belive at the time that they required reparing at the time since they were not broken.

 

That is not to say that the OP would have brought the car if they had been aware of the issues, as the OP perhaps; and this is a purely subjective statement. may have unrealistic expectations of what condition a 9 year old 83k 4x4 should be in compared to the sellers veiw. and on that i can not comment since i nor anyone else on this thread other than the OP has seen the car. However the test the court would put on it is; is the car in a condition that would be extected for its year and mileage, and not what unrealistic expectations did the buyer have.

 

I will note one thing, in the list of items posted by the OP there is a hyperlink to an email address which is a garage in the north of England (putting 2 and 2 together, possibly resulting in 5) this may be the garage that had done the service, if so then they are an authorised repairer so various prestige brands and in the 4x4 areana Land Rover and Range Rover, so if the OP brought a £5k one of these then they should expect lots of very serious problems as they are not cheap motors and some would say not particully well built either.

It is easier to enter a rich man than for a camel to pass a needle

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Proper service centres and main dealers will highlight potential issues which are picked up during a service on their invoice (sometimes on a separate sheet). This is then stored on their system. The stamp in the service book merely confirms that the service was carried out and when.

 

I have recently bought a second hand car with full service history which also came with all the service invoices. To me, the invoices are part of the history as they contain the detailed "health" history of the car. A fully up to date stamped service book tells you very little.

 

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I'm not aware of an legal definition of "full service history" however trolling around the net i popped on to the what car website and in their glossary they state:

Full service history - Before buying a used car, ask to see the car's service book. If this shows the car has been serviced on time and according to the manufacturer's instructions, your potential buy has a full service history. It's a sign the previous owners have cared for the car properly, so it is more likely to be reliable. This also adds to its resale value.

And from a legal website:

It’s a bit of an old chestnut as to what Full Service History actually means. If we look at the literal definition, if a car at 100,000 miles had just one service at 50,000 miles comprising an oil and filter change and there was document which recorded this then that would be the full service history. It is the only history of servicing that car.

Don’t get excited though! We then start to think of the legal’s. How would the man on the Clapham omnibus, i.e the reasonable man, interpret the phrase. In our opinion it would be a level of servicing at intervals laid down by the manufacturer. As to the level of servicing, it would be attention to as many items that could affect the buying decision of the customer if they knew they were missing. Oil and filter changes would be important but tyre pressures, wash bottle top ups would not. If the description extended to Full Manufacturers Service History then it would be necessary to have had all the servicing items carried out at each service as stipulated by the manufacturer.

So how much difference does Full Service History make? In a recent survey by Kwik Fit, they suggested the value of a car can increase by 25% and based on an average used car price of £5500, this equates to £1500.

So as long as the book it stamped to say that the services were done correctly then it has FSH, I know that it is nice to get a wedge of supporting paperwork as well but it is not a requirement. Saying that I remember buying a motorbike some years ago that must have been 20 years old, when I got it in the pack the owner gave me there was every receipt (both servicing and spares) receipts for tyres, every MOT certificate and every tax disc that it had ever had, a wonderful record of its life.

It is easier to enter a rich man than for a camel to pass a needle

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Nobody is saying that it is a requirement (legal or otherwise) to have the full service history of a used car. The point here is that the OP has found out that the last service threw up some issues which the seller has decided to "remove" rather than rectify.

 

I am wondering how it would pan out in a court when the buyer argues that he would not have bought the car had he of known about the issues which clearly the seller was aware of. However, that argument would only be valid IF the seller is a trader.

 

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Nobody is saying that it is a requirement (legal or otherwise) to have the full service history of a used car. The point here is that the OP has found out that the last service threw up some issues which the seller has decided to "remove" rather than rectify.

 

I am wondering how it would pan out in a court when the buyer argues that he would not have bought the car had he of known about the issues which clearly the seller was aware of. However, that argument would only be valid IF the seller is a trader.

 

Sorry, I was not trying to argue a legal point, it just started out as i wondered what people mean by FSH and what it actually means.

 

I fully agree it would make an intresting case to watch, and would make some intresting case law as it would potentially have huge ramifications in consumer law. Tell you what i'll get the popcorn and you get the drinks when it comes to court.

It is easier to enter a rich man than for a camel to pass a needle

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Sorry, I was not trying to argue a legal point, it just started out as i wondered what people mean by FSH and what it actually means.

 

I fully agree it would make an intresting case to watch, and would make some intresting case law as it would potentially have huge ramifications in consumer law. Tell you what i'll get the popcorn and you get the drinks when it comes to court.

 

Always get lumbered with the more expensive option! :violin:

 

I think we can agree that the full service history thing here is pretty much a red herring. The Op would be better focusing on finding out whether the seller is in fact a trader or not and why the "advisories" were removed from the service documents. If they were minor and insignificant, why remove/not disclose them other than to sway a potential buyer to buy the car?

 

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before we all saunter off, could you tell us what happened to your previous car? I would presume that it is still in pristime condition and you still have it.

 

no I had an old pug X reg, bought it for my learner wife, now she's ok, we got her a 4X4. but I still have the pug, it has few problems but it runs well.

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Just came across this as I don't get much time to contribute as much as I did these days. Must admit to not reading the entire thread.

 

But from post #1, I think the OP MAY have an avenue to explore. He seems to think that the "private" seller is in fact a trader. We all know that it is in fact illegal for a trader to pose as a private seller and they only do it to avoid their responsibilities under the SOGA.

 

It seems therefore, that the car MAY have some inherent faults which were present at the point of sale. In which case, the OP would have a legitimate reason to write to the seller and ask him to rectify (providing that he can show him as a trader). The OP already states that the keeper details on the V5 do not match the seller. That's a sure sign that all is not well.

 

My advice would be to formally write to the seller and ask him to rectify the faults otherwise you will seek legal advice into whether the car was in fact sold privately or not.

 

If the seller dosn't play ball and the OP is convinced he is a trader, then he should contact trading standards via his local CAB for face to face advice. TS should be interested into the possibility that a trader posing as a private seller.

That is exactly what I am going to do, but at the same time even as a private seller I don't want the seller to think that they can get away with it either.

This way the seller might cooperate if the business is under the spot light, alternatively even if I don't get anything, at least it will deter the seller from doing again, so at least someone will be spared.

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Sorry, couldn't reply any earlier.

I went for a 10k run as every monday and thursday of the last 10 years.

Gym is not for me, I get enough exercise chopping logs as a volonteer of the national trust.

Yes, there's a lot wrong with me if you check every cell of my body on the microscope, but the same can be said about a brand new car.

You are being spiteful to a lot of us just because you have no case whatsoever.

A 9 year old car comes with wear and tear.

Fact!

Full service history means that the service book has been stamped at the required intervals and in better scenarios each stamp is accompanied by a receipt and credit card payment slip.

The advisory notes written by the mechanic servicing the car are a way to scare people like you and make them repair something that doesn't need to.

You are trying to climb a glass wall to nowhere.

Just use the car and when something goes wrong fix it.

For the time being the car is ok for a 9 year old vehicle and there's nothing you can claim off the seller.

So I suggest you chill out and stop being spiteful.

Arrogance is a tool used to cover up ignorance.

 

I can't get lower to your level, you beat me I agree

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Guys, this is the kind of ideas that I expected from this forum, the legality of FSH, what could mean, being a trader/private and the chances that I can get something out of it or not, this is what I had in mind that I wanted to explore and share.

My plan is still the same, as follow:

1.Sending a letter asking for the repairs cost, I will not ask for the full amount unless the case is taken to court.

2.I will stress that as a consumer I have my rights, whether from a private or trader and that I have been mislead about the car being fully serviced from the main dealer ( it turned out to be a specialist garage) and that there was nothing wrong with it where in fact there are few things that ought to be repaired, I was presented with a recent invoice which suggest that the car was thoroughly examined and fixed with update service , however the seller deliberately concealed some information to sell me the vehicle in which some of the work was not carried out at the recommendation of the garage, some of which the wheel is not the same, serious enough to be highlighted along with other faults. The faults are/can develop into a problem now.

3. Will get Trading standard and Citizen Advise bureau involved if not settlement is reached as it seems the seller is acting as a trader but privately.

4. will get you involved as well on the way to come up with a good case, if I wint some % will go to this forum for the time/effort/assistance that is bringing to so many of us

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You will stand a good chance of wasting your time (and money) of pursing this unless you establish whether or not the seller is a trader. Private sellers are pretty much immune from the SOGA unless they deliberately/knowingly falsely advertise a car. I'm not sure that by not divulging these "advisories" would be enough ammunition in brining a successful claim. The issues weren't serious enough IMHO.

 

My advice is to do some detective work and establish first that the seller is actually a trader which will increase your chances dramatically.

 

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Thanks

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