Has the ESA Tribunal Altered.

[Lilly_Monroe]

I have just read on another forum of someone who maintains that their ESA tribunal was heard in front of a judge (or not heard as in this case).

Has anyone else heard of this - have they altered the way appeals are heard.

 

From what they wrote, the judge failed to hear the case because he did not have representation.

So his case was not heard and a new date set.

 

I have asked them for more information - as this is first I have heard of a judge hearing these cases.

[obiter dictum]

Tribunals are staffed by judges, mostly retired though, but still a court of Law. Any individual going into a court is entitled to representation. It seems the judges are getting peeved off with the amount of unnecessary appeals being upheld through government policy. What should happen is a form of mediation or arbitration before it even gets put before a judge. Court cases are expensive

[Lilly_Monroe]

Tribunals are staffed by judges, mostly retired though, but still a court of Law. Any individual going into a court is entitled to representation. It seems the judges are getting peeved off with the amount of unnecessary appeals being upheld through government policy. What should happen is a form of mediation or arbitration before it even gets put before a judge. Court cases are expensive

 

I thought the tribunal were heard in front of 3 people and not in a court room.

This was a court - with only the judge presiding/present.

The person concerned was scared to hell and basically (by their account) told they were fit enough to work, but get representation and come back - they would NOT hear the case without it.

[osdset]

Tribunals are nothing like courts of law, much less formal. One judge, and one doctor on one side of a desk, you on the other and a clerk in the corner transcribing what's said.

[obiter dictum]

The point i was making osdset is that a Tribunal is classed as a court of law, (Lord Devlin). You have to give the same respect as in a Magistrates, County or Crown court. That is why it is called HM Court & Tribunal Service and it all comes under the Ministry of Justice

[Guest]

my tribunal was held in 2011 and there were three people on the panel.....one a doctor, one a lawyer, and one who was a judge. thankfully for me I didn't actually get out of the waiting room, the clerk spoke to me on arrival and sat me down saying they were running on time and I would be called in within 10 minutes......he then reappeared 10 minutes later telling me my appeal was upheld...I had won and the letter would be sent out in the next few days......it came the next day. I always thought it was like a court in that their decision is final unless a legal blunder has occurred and it goes to the upper tribunal.....shame their recommendations aren't, although I was lucky and the dwp stuck with them in my case.

[osdset]

My tribunal was as I explained in post #4, about as formal as sitting in my front room.

[Past caring]

My husband had his tribunal last week at Caernarfon County Court, in a court room with a judge and doctor sitting on high in the magistrates chairs while we mere mortals were seated lower down in front of them. Very formal, very daunting, kept waiting for 50 minutes to be told (after a 9 month wait) that more medical evidence was going to be requested.

 

PS My husband has extreme mental health difficulties. They knew of this and have now left me dealing with the fall out.

[osdset]

My husband had his tribunal last week at Caernarfon County Court, in a court room with a judge and doctor sitting on high in the magistrates chairs while we mere mortals were seated lower down in front of them. Very formal, very daunting, kept waiting for 50 minutes to be told (after a 9 month wait) that more medical evidence was going to be requested.

 

PS My husband has extreme mental health difficulties. They knew of this and have now left me dealing with the fall out.

I imagine tribunals use whatever appropriate building is available, so some of them will be held in daunting surroundings.

I went to Fox Court in the Grey's Inn Rd which is just an office complex in the city. (I believe it's where the official information video of what happens at tribunals was filmed, the one that got removed from YouTube at the DWP's request).

[estellyn]

Ok, Tribunal judges until a few years ago, used to be solicitors who were called Tribunal Chairs. There was a reorganisation and it was decided that instead of calling them 'chairs', they would be called 'judges' because that is what they are.

 

 

Who hears your Tribunal depends on what type of benefit you're appealing, so for DLA you have the Judge, a doctor, and someone who is experienced in disabilities. For an ESA WCA Tribunal, it will be a judge and a doctor, and for an Income Support, Housing Benefit or Jsa appeal it would just be judge.

 

 

A judge can't force someone to get a rep. Though I expect that if someone was completely unable to sensibly answer questions (severe mental health, learning difficulties) then there may be some sort of process whereby they can insist on someone else there to represent - I've not come across it, though we did have a few cases referred by kind judges who adjourned the hearing and recommended our service as able to help.

[RaeUK]

Ah, thanks estellyn, I was wondering where the references to Judges had come from - both my Tribunal panels consisted of a Chairman and a Doctor.

[honeybee13]

Ah, thanks estellyn, I was wondering where the references to Judges had come from - both my Tribunal panels consisted of a Chairman and a Doctor.

 

So did mine, Rae, although it wasn't that recent. The chairman was a lawyer and there was also a doctor, as you say. And a DWP person taking notes, who said nothing.

 

HB

[estellyn]

So did mine, Rae, although it wasn't that recent. The chairman was a lawyer and there was also a doctor, as you say. And a DWP person taking notes, who said nothing.

 

HB

 

 

Yes, other people who might be in the Tribunal room are the rep(s) from the benefit office involved (DWP/LA), and the Tribunal clerk who may be in and out. Reps from the DWP rarely attend. Our LA's used to generally send someone, so it depends on your area and the policy/staffing in the offices involved and whether anyone can be spared.

[**Margaret**]

:Tribunal chair/judge:

 

The appellant mentioned in #1 of this thread has posted on CAG and another site as :ratherworried: As written, the principal reason for adjournment was last minute submission of evidence that the panel didn't have time to read ahead of the hearing, and the representation issue was an ungraciously delivered suggestion.

 

I've chaperoned several tribunal hearings without a professional rep in sight. They're an extinct species in my part of the East Midlands. Guess that if an obviously vulnerable appellant turned up unaccompanied there'd be an adjournment for an appropriate adult from mental health/social services.

 

Given their current chaos, Work n Pensions don't appear to have learnt much from their observation of :honeybee13:'s hearing.

 

Margaret.

[tommy456]

The doctor at my tribunal wasn't a practising doctor though i don't know if they are supposed to be or not, a bit like ATOS if they don't need to be ???

[abc123def]

they have to be registered

[worried33]

I have never had a DWP rep at a hearing and the clerk sits behind me out of sight so effectively also out of mind.

 

Its sort of non formal, but it probably pays to address the judge properly and I found they tend to ask question fast and agressively as they are having to collect evidence in a short period of time.

[rds60h]

I have had an ESA Tribunal and a DLA Tribunal, both were held in a disability centre and although it was a formal proceedure it was in a relaxed manner. In both cases there were 3 people on the "Bench" which consisted of the Judge, a Doctor and one other person (on the DLA Tribunal the other person was a lady in a wheelchair). In both cases all the people asked me questions and they all told me that if I could not remember any particular facts then to say so, because it had been almost 2 years between the Appeal and the Tribunal Hearing and they did not expect me to remember every single detail from that far back.

In my case I thought that they were thorough but fair in their questioning and they were happy to take any breaks that I required, DWP did not send a representative to either hearing and the Judge did make a point of stating this.

I was successful in both Tribunals, in that I received the awards that I believed I was entitled to.

[estellyn]

I have never had a DWP rep at a hearing and the clerk sits behind me out of sight so effectively also out of mind.

 

Its sort of non formal, but it probably pays to address the judge properly and I found they tend to ask question fast and agressively as they are having to collect evidence in a short period of time.

 

 

Yes, addressing the judge and other members properly does help - though in one of my favourite hearings, of a guy with mental health problems, who had very 'colourful' speech, addressed the judge as 'Mrs Judge' and at one point 'Mrs Judge woman', as well as the doctor as 'Mr doctor man'. Never had to try so hard in a formal situation not to giggle - we weren't laughing at the client, just the incongruity of the situation - didn't help that the doctor was also trying not laugh, too, and we had to concentrate on not catching each other's eye. Luckily the judge was really understanding, and made a good award of DLA. Really great client, he basically just was himself and told it like it was for him.

[Lilly_Monroe]

I have never had a DWP rep at a hearing and the clerk sits behind me out of sight so effectively also out of mind.

 

Its sort of non formal, but it probably pays to address the judge properly and I found they tend to ask question fast and agressively as they are having to collect evidence in a short period of time.

 

I had a DPW person at my DLA tribunal - he was very curt with me.

He read out some points I had made in my submission, and asked me if I still stood by them.

Outside of that he just made notes.

I failed that appeal.

The appeal was running late, so therefore it was all cut short and I was left being unable to hardly put my case across.

The lady on panel from the disabilities organisation came across as very understanding.

The doc I did not like he was patronizing and spoke to me as if I was brain dead, he would ask me a question followed by 'do you understand' very demeaning attitude all in all.

The judge she was professional and hardly asked me any questions.

 

As I came out of the hearing; my one overriding thought was - how do these well paid people who are in seemingly good health, understand what it is like to need help.

That interview and their attitude set me backs months.