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I disagree in part - we work in order to live - buy food, put a roof over our heads and pay essential bills and the costs of going to work. Buy clothes, yes, but not necessarily 'nice' clothes.

 

 

I do agree that in the course of going to work, no one should be worse off than on benefits.

 

 

Yes, the world is unequal, rich and/or powerful have more than the poor, but the world has been that way for thousands of years - even in early tribes, everyone who was physically able would be expected to do their part, but certain members of the tribe would have more status and power and get more/better food, other items than the lower members of the tribe.

 

 

It doesn't mean that such inequality is right in an advanced society with a developed morality, but sadly we're not there yet.

 

 

We can strive and try to change the world, but need to accept, that barring some sort of global disaster, change will happen very, very slowly. No it's not fair, but the world and life never has been - some win the great lottery that is birth, genetics and environment, and some lose out dreadfully.

 

 

I have nothing against some people having wealth, power and the likes.

Like you say, it has always been so - will always be that way.

Some people work very hard to achieve what they have.

Those that are born into it - well I am sure I would not be looking a gift horse in the mouth if I was one of them.

What I am against is abuse of that power and wealth - what seems the law of the land for the less fortunate seems not to apply to them.

 

I also cannot fathom why some of them want to see us lesser mortals suffer - sometimes I feel it is not even a conscious act, it's as if it is ingrained in them, and they do it because they can (a sense of power).

 

All in all there is NO fairness in the World and waiting for it to happen - well hell as they say, will freeze before that day comes.

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I have nothing against some people having wealth, power and the likes.

Like you say, it has always been so - will always be that way.

Some people work very hard to achieve what they have.

Those that are born into it - well I am sure I would not be looking a gift horse in the mouth if I was one of them.

What I am against is abuse of that power and wealth - what seems the law of the land for the less fortunate seems not to apply to them.

 

I also cannot fathom why some of them want to see us lesser mortals suffer - sometimes I feel it is not even a conscious act, it's as if it is ingrained in them, and they do it because they can (a sense of power).

 

All in all there is NO fairness in the World and waiting for it to happen - well hell as they say, will freeze before that day comes.

 

 

Well, yes, that's power for you. The more power a person has, more opportunity to abuse it. From the man who beats his wife and kids, to the manager who has his underlings do the worst jobs while sitting in the office doing 'paperwork', to dictators who commit genocide. People in power are very good at 'justifying' their abuses. It takes a particular brand of strong morality to have great power and wield it fairly for the good of all.

 

 

ETA: and no the world isn't fair. It is entirely set up for survival of the fittest. If you're born with average drive and intelligence, then environmental issues like abuse or poor education, or physical issues like disability will affect you more than someone with high intelligence and drive who suffers a disability, but had a good childhood and a good education.

We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office ~ Aesop

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Wow this thread has moved on.

Going back to my sugestion of rationing NHS treatment I know it is emotive and I am not sure how I would feel personally if it was my baby or my parent. To be honest though, is it fair to let a baby who will never be even slightly independent in mind or body live. If I need a new liver and then carry on drinking so the newcone fails should I get it.

My mother has a living will, if she has say a serious stroke she wants to be kept comortable but not treated .

 

Moving on to spending and debt all this can be spun. I believe that labour tried to spend its way out of recession with large capital projects however this can not be sustained for ever. The arguments about how much the tories have borrowed may be unfair as how much of that was already in the pipeline before the election. It is argued that the tories did not expect to win the last election they did under Major and had screwed the econonmy in the hope labour would win have one term and not be able to fix it.

Then of course there are percentages. In a period of growth you can spend more but still spend a lower %of GDP and vice versa so you can use the figures to say what you want.

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Wow this thread has moved on.

Going back to my sugestion of rationing NHS treatment I know it is emotive and I am not sure how I would feel personally if it was my baby or my parent. To be honest though, is it fair to let a baby who will never be even slightly independent in mind or body live. If I need a new liver and then carry on drinking so the newcone fails should I get it.

My mother has a living will, if she has say a serious stroke she wants to be kept comortable but not treated .

 

Moving on to spending and debt all this can be spun. I believe that labour tried to spend its way out of recession with large capital projects however this can not be sustained for ever. The arguments about how much the tories have borrowed may be unfair as how much of that was already in the pipeline before the election. It is argued that the tories did not expect to win the last election they did under Major and had screwed the econonmy in the hope labour would win have one term and not be able to fix it.

Then of course there are percentages. In a period of growth you can spend more but still spend a lower %of GDP and vice versa so you can use the figures to say what you want.

 

 

Baby euthanasia, can't see that as a vote winner!

We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office ~ Aesop

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That's your opinion, which is o.k., many of the EU countries do meet UK regulations and standards. Even dentists in the UK don't meet UK regulations and standards. When the waiting lists were long it was considered, but the waiting lists have come down, that's the reason, Germany and France had extra capacity. Where have I mentioned that it would be 'cheaper'?

"Even dentists in the UK don't meet UK regulations and standards." According to the Care Quality Commission; last year, of the 13006 Registered Dentists in the UK only 10 required "enforcement action". So, I would suggest that really doesn't support your view.

As for where did you mention cheaper post #97 " 'Apples and pears', on the whole it is equivalent or better, yes it is cheaper, but that doesn't infer poor quality"

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That's only enforcements, I suppose there were only 10 complaints in total in the whole of the U.K.

 

'I would certainly question your statement of "offering a better standard of work." particularly when it involves "cosmetic" dentistry having seen and read so many cases of correctal dentistry and surgery having to be made after people have had "private" treatment abroad.

Had you said because they were offering treatment cheaper then I would have agreed.'

 

 

"Even dentists in the UK don't meet UK regulations and standards." According to the Care Quality Commission; last year, of the 13006 Registered Dentists in the UK only 10 required "enforcement action". So, I would suggest that really doesn't support your view.

As for where did you mention cheaper post #97 " 'Apples and pears', on the whole it is equivalent or better, yes it is cheaper, but that doesn't infer poor quality"

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I know not popular but I did not say euthanasia only palliative care.. Big difference

 

I'm still not seeing a politician standing up and saying "Instead of saving sick babies, we should make them comfortable while they die."

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I'm still not seeing a politician standing up and saying "Instead of saving sick babies, we should make them comfortable while they die."

 

They have no problems doing it with us oldies !!

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They have no problems doing it with us oldies !!

 

Different roles in society. People love babies, in principle at least. I mean, anyone who's ever had dealings with one knows that they aren't actually cute little balls of fun. They're more like bottomless reservoirs of crap and puke, with a volume control permanently set to 11. But they look cute.

 

Now old people, on the other hand - what do we do with them? I mean, there's only so many people we can pay to spend their days demanding that we get off their lawns.

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Dear Scarlet

 

If you only going to rely on clinical evidence from so called experts to sway your opinion then I cant help you there, my opinions are based on real life experiences.

 

Examples?

 

My Mother for decades her health problems were based on obesity, yet doctors didnt click she was slim when her health problems started, her obesity was a side effect of her health problems, funny enough as soon as she moved away from my city, the GP's in her new area have correctly diagnosed her, sadly 20 or so years too late as now she cant be operated on and has lost much of her younger life due to the lack of treatment when younger. eg. she was falling asleep in the day (even minutes after waking up) and doctors were initially not even bothering to do anything at all. Eventually my elder sister went with her to a appointment, said some strong words and we found the problem, short oxygen supply. Now she wears a oxygen mask to bed and no longer falls asleep in the day. It took about 7 years for this to get diagnosed. She was also wrongfully diagnosed with asthma for about 40 years. She also has had walking problems for decades, in the past it wasnt severe so she led a fairly normal life, was able to work etc. however she was regurly pulling her back and having occasional issues which sidelined her temporarily, up until about 4-5 years ago she suddenly had to quit all her cleaning jobs and effectivaly became disabled overnight. gain after some pushing we found she has numerous issues with her back that require surgery but because of her age the surgery cannot go ahead. This had been failed to be diagnosed for many years.

 

Myself. I had to self refer to a couple of places, I have had to shout at doctors to get other refferals. My area is rife with locum doctors who lets face it will not be of the same standards as a permanent doctor who knows if he doesnt get it right you will be back to see him again. The specialists I have been seeing have all commented why I am not seeing this and that other specialist for problems they see with their own eyes. Apparently to you getting misdiagnosed or not diagnosed is uncommon, yet me after 10 years still have no proper diagnosis for a problem that stopped me working.

 

My younger sister was having blackouts, fainting etc. for several years from when she was early 20s onwards, doctor said its in her mind headaches are normal. One day she collapsed at work, wasnt able to speak properly turns out she has had some mini strokes and now has some permanent nerve damage. Only took them about 7 years to diagnose.

 

Something I seen in the paper (so obviously its possible it may have been misreported) a young working lady was reporting frequent vomiting, coughing up blood, chest pains. Doctors blamed it on indigestion, wow. She kept going back asking again and again as symptons were getting worse, no follow ups, no refferals, apparently young people cant get severe illness. Eventually it got so bad she was taken to hospital, after many years finally had a chest xray done, and they found well developed lung cancer which of course if only caught earlier might have had a chance. You can guess the ending. (she didnt smoke)

 

NHS quality is a postcode lottery, some areas its very hard to even get a permenent GP, never mind the rest. I think you have a bit of a rose tinted view of the state of things in this country.

 

Of course with the media there is 1 or 2 left wing papers, but they are very outnumbered by right wing papers, and the bbc is sort of center right biased in fact I find they tend to be always leaning to the existing government's views as they want their tv licence renewed, but generally right wing people see anything that isnt extreme right wing as left wing.

 

Everyone's frame of reference is different. Just because my lived experience is different to yours doesn't mean either of us are wrong. You may think I have a rose-tinted view, whilst I suspect that you are basing your view on a narrow view that fails to take account of the wider picture.

 

You list a catalogue of things about which you are unhappy in terms of diagnoses and treatment. Given that you do not like to rely upon experts, who would you rather have had to look after your family? Did you complain? What do you think could have been done differently?

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Different roles in society. People love babies, in principle at least. I mean, anyone who's ever had dealings with one knows that they aren't actually cute little balls of fun. They're more like bottomless reservoirs of crap and puke, with a volume control permanently set to 11. But they look cute.

 

Now old people, on the other hand - what do we do with them? I mean, there's only so many people we can pay to spend their days demanding that we get off their lawns.

 

:lol:

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I know not popular but I did not say euthanasia only palliative care.. Big difference

 

 

Hey, don't get me wrong - I'm actually in favour of euthanasia for adults of sound mind. And I believe that medical intervention is used far too often when there is no hope. But I just come at it from a different angle. I don't care how much it costs if a person can be saved. I also don't care how much money can be saved by withholding treatment - it's about the amount of suffering the person experiences. Horrible invasive medical treatments in order to keep someone (whatever age) alive and in great pain and suffering for a few weeks or months is in most circumstances inhumane.

 

 

So no, I don't think the cost saving measure to the NHS should be argued, but we should be talking about the ethics of promoting pain and suffering, and educating people about end of life and dying issues rather than them being things we avoid until we have to face them.

 

 

And I also think that we could take some lessons from other cultures who look after and venerate their elders, caring for them at home, where possible, with family rather than shipping them off to care homes, with financial assistance being provided by the state. This would actually save money, but more importantly would be better for the person being cared for. Family members were queuing up to have my Nan come and live with them when she became disabled (I was awarded respite care), and we wouldn't dream of letting a family member go into care if it could be helped. So I say, keep your old people at home and keep your lawns intruder free. And for no additional cost, get useful wisdom such as 'if you play with eggshells you'll get warts', and 'don't sit on public toilet seats or you may get pregnant', and my personal favourite (after my divorce) 'Lyn, how can you invite a man up to your flat for 'coffee', if you don't have a kettle, and it's not as if you have any etchings to show him either!' (Loved my Nan, she was an original).

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Oh I love babies as well but not all at once!

 

I suppose what I was saying is that with new methods lives can be saved and extended in a way never seen before. This will no doubt go on but if we can't affird it who is going to make the tough decisions. I do think it is morally wrong to keep someone alive at any cost just because we can. I am not sure I would want to live if I was alert but completely unable to function or communicate. My worst nightmare I think.

 

As for Drs I am sure we all know someone who has been ill or died and can think back to maybe the first symptoms and think if only. If an otherwise healthy person presents with stomach pain what tests would you do? I certainly wouldn't be thinking Hodgkins Disease but it is a symtom. Isnt an ulcer or diet far more likely so that would be the 1st thing to investigate

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Well, yes, that's power for you. The more power a person has, more opportunity to abuse it. From the man who beats his wife and kids, to the manager who has his underlings do the worst jobs while sitting in the office doing 'paperwork', to dictators who commit genocide. People in power are very good at 'justifying' their abuses. It takes a particular brand of strong morality to have great power and wield it fairly for the good of all.

 

 

ETA: and no the world isn't fair. It is entirely set up for survival of the fittest. If you're born with average drive and intelligence, then environmental issues like abuse or poor education, or physical issues like disability will affect you more than someone with high intelligence and drive who suffers a disability, but had a good childhood and a good education.

 

Agree strongly.

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And I also think that we could take some lessons from other cultures who look after and venerate their elders, caring for them at home, where possible, with family rather than shipping them off to care homes, with financial assistance being provided by the state. This would actually save money, but more importantly would be better for the person being cared for. Family members were queuing up to have my Nan come and live with them when she became disabled (I was awarded respite care), and we wouldn't dream of letting a family member go into care if it could be helped. So I say, keep your old people at home and keep your lawns intruder free. And for no additional cost, get useful wisdom such as 'if you play with eggshells you'll get warts', and 'don't sit on public toilet seats or you may get pregnant', and my personal favourite (after my divorce) 'Lyn, how can you invite a man up to your flat for 'coffee', if you don't have a kettle, and it's not as if you have any etchings to show him either!' (Loved my Nan, she was an original).

 

 

 

You make a good point. One of the problems within our society is, I think, unrealistic expectation. People should take more responsibility for themselves and their family, rather than expecting someone (usually the State) to provide for them. It's very easy to blame those in power, but perhaps some need to look at themselves more closely.

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I have had to beg doctors for scans as well. They really don't like to spend their budget.

 

I had back pains for years. Years of physio, pain killers, osteopath treatments, one day I said enough. I had private healthcare so could get an MRI done on that but I needed a gp referral to a specialist to recommend one. Getting my gp to refer me (perm gp for years), was like pulling teeth. He asked me what they wanted me to scan exactly? I said my back and neck of course, even after I told him it would be paid for by my healthcare he was still reluctant. When I got to see the specialist even he put on my report he didn't think they would find anything, based on my symptoms. Guess what, they found two discs with extra bone spurs growing, trapping my nerve, causing painful spasms. A few months later I had spinal surgery to fuse two discs my neck.

 

A few weeks back, I was in a&e after having a pain attack in my stomach. I was in agony, rolling around, in a&e and the doctor wanted to send me home so my gp could send me back for a scan. I told her how much pain I was in ( she could also see) and couldn't they scan me there and then. The doctor said no as it wasn't the correct procedure and an MRI/ct scan would be too expensive. They could have been sending me home with anything. She really didn't seem to care, but she did say I could have the scan arranged within weeks if it was urgent. Brilliant, thanks. Luckily another doctor came on and saw how much pain I was in, checked my test results and then agreed to send me for a ct scan. Low and behold I have kidney stones.

 

Doctors just don't listen to their patients anymore and it is how they miss so much. They listen to much to their managers, who are trying to control budgets. But it doesn't have to be like that, if they were stricter on people they treat who are abusing the system. People who should be paying for their treatment, just like if I was in a foreign country I myself (or my insurance) would have to pay.

 

You really shouldn't have to beg for treatment when you know there is something wrong.

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They're more like bottomless reservoirs of crap and puke, with a volume control permanently set to 11. But they look cute.

 

Nicely said - if you ever write your own dictionary put me down for a copy :) We're all mostly liquid but I too have often wondered how babies manage to expel far more than their own body weight. Sadly, it's a skill we lose as we grow up - not counting the odd binge drinking session where we seem to be expelling more than we weigh.

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People should take more responsibility for themselves and their family, rather than expecting someone (usually the State) to provide for them.

 

This being the same state that we contribute to by paying tax etc?

 

Years ago there was no shame in relying on the sate to look after us when we fell on hard times or become sick. Nowadays it seems certain quarters seems want us to be more like the states, and by god look how well they look after those who can't afford huge medical bills or insurance premiums.

 

:(

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You make a good point. One of the problems within our society is, I think, unrealistic expectation. People should take more responsibility for themselves and their family, rather than expecting someone (usually the State) to provide for them. It's very easy to blame those in power, but perhaps some need to look at themselves more closely.

 

some people have no family.

 

I think your post suggests you in a life where you have money in the bank for a rainy day as you can afford rto do that, maybe you also have private insurance.

 

Problem is in the real world people go from day to day fighting for survival, even some people who work fight day to day. So when something does go wrong they in trouble.

 

to me there is nothng wrong with a social safety net. especially in a system which is catered to survival of the fittest. eg. I think the housing system is "broken" renting costs more than buying a property, my one bed flat has more rent than my sister's mortagage on a 3 bed house with a big garden. This is because my landlord has a profit on top of his costs. Does people looking after themselves extend to landlord's relying on the housing benefit system to pay their mortgage's? the noly 2 fixes I see for this is either landlords are not allowed to charge more than 60% of their mortgage for rent (then they will all sell up as no longer easy money) or the social housing system is massively ramped up to provide cheap secure rental properties. there is various things the state is needed for, take it away and chaos happens. Your ideal world is like the medieval times when there was no state.

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Your ideal world is like the medieval times when there was no state.

 

Which is this 'governments' wet dream. If you can't look after yourself from cradle to grave , well don't expect your government to give you any help.

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some people have no family.

 

I think your post suggests you in a life where you have money in the bank for a rainy day as you can afford rto do that, maybe you also have private insurance.

 

Wrong.

 

Problem is in the real world people go from day to day fighting for survival, even some people who work fight day to day. So when something does go wrong they in trouble.

 

to me there is nothng wrong with a social safety net. especially in a system which is catered to survival of the fittest. eg. I think the housing system is "broken" renting costs more than buying a property, my one bed flat has more rent than my sister's mortagage on a 3 bed house with a big garden. This is because my landlord has a profit on top of his costs. Does people looking after themselves extend to landlord's relying on the housing benefit system to pay their mortgage's? the noly 2 fixes I see for this is either landlords are not allowed to charge more than 60% of their mortgage for rent (then they will all sell up as no longer easy money) or the social housing system is massively ramped up to provide cheap secure rental properties. there is various things the state is needed for, take it away and chaos happens.

 

I think you may be confused; my suggestion that people should take responsibility for themselves does not mean that there should not be state provision for those in genuine need. A safety net, as you say, to provide for basic needs in a crisis. In terms of housing, I think that private rentals should be regulated in the same way as they are in Germany (where many more people rent than own); as well as ensuring rents are not excessive, it also places much stronger legal obligations on landlords to maintain property than here. This would also address the situation you describe with private landlords exploiting HB, which I agree is absurd. Social housing, in my view, should be for those in real need; the ridiculous situation we have now in which families who were provided with social housing remain in it at subsidised rents irrespective of their financial position - Bob Crow is an example, though maybe an extreme one. I'd like to see people's needs assessed, say every three years, and if the household income is above a certain level, they then start paying market rent. That way more money is returned to help those in genuine need.

 

Taking responsibility means, for example, families helping their elderly relatives - as an example, collecting them from hospital rather than expecting the NHS to arrange an ambulance. Or couples thinking about what's involved in bringing up a child, rather than whinging about childcare costs. Today I saw a patient who was admitted to hospital after going on a 3 day bender; she knew that she would end up in hospital, but still chose to drink (not an alcoholic, either, so can choose); that means someone else cannot be treated. I think that's selfish and shows a failure to take responsibility for her own actions.

 

We can't always have just what we want; sometimes we have to make choices and compromises.

 

Your ideal world is like the medieval times when there was no state.

 

Wrong again.

 

I think that the most vulnerable in our society should be helped as much as possible, for as long as necessary, but I do not think that the taxpayer should be subsidising cigarettes, drugs, alcohol and gambling, or providing long term income to those who are able but choose not to work. As well as the state providing help, I think that philanthropy should be encouraged; tax breaks may be unpopular, but if they were linked to philanthropic works they could be a powerful incentive.

 

I would not want to see a situation where the state provides everything for everyone - look at North Korea or any failed communist state (and there aren't any that haven't failed) for why, but nor would I want to see no state provision at all.

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some people have no family.

 

I think your post suggests you in a life where you have money in the bank for a rainy day as you can afford rto do that, maybe you also have private insurance.

 

Problem is in the real world people go from day to day fighting for survival, even some people who work fight day to day. So when something does go wrong they in trouble.

 

to me there is nothng wrong with a social safety net. especially in a system which is catered to survival of the fittest. eg. I think the housing system is "broken" renting costs more than buying a property, my one bed flat has more rent than my sister's mortagage on a 3 bed house with a big garden. This is because my landlord has a profit on top of his costs. Does people looking after themselves extend to landlord's relying on the housing benefit system to pay their mortgage's? the noly 2 fixes I see for this is either landlords are not allowed to charge more than 60% of their mortgage for rent (then they will all sell up as no longer easy money) or the social housing system is massively ramped up to provide cheap secure rental properties. there is various things the state is needed for, take it away and chaos happens. Your ideal world is like the medieval times when there was no state.

 

I don't have any family - just me.

What am I meant to do (and I mean NO family).

If I am refused where would I turn.

Something I try not to think about but its possible.

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I don't have any family - just me.

What am I meant to do (and I mean NO family).

If I am refused where would I turn.

Something I try not to think about but its possible.

 

 

There are a number of third sector providers who can help people in this situation.

 

As an example, a few months ago I was asked to see a man in hospital who had no family; he was unmarried, his parents were dead and his only other relative, a brother, died last year. He was found in his flat in a terrible state, unable to look after himself at all. He was only found because he'd stopped calling at the corner shop for milk, and the shopkeeper was worried and called round. When he was well he went to a local authority 'halfway house' nursing home for occupational therapy. In the meantime, I referred him to a third sector organisation who arranged for his flat to be professionally cleaned and repairs carried out, and his broken TV to be replaced. Perhaps most importantly, when he went home volunteers visited him regularly and helped with things like benefits.

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