Off topic posts from "Getting them to Reveal their Vitals"

[frettful38]

Unlike others, my brain is a masterpiece. it has 2 halves, the left & the right The left has nothing right in it & the right has nothing left in it...............is how I felt when I made the request

[Notasniceasjoe]

you will now need to be a bit careful- because techncially the creditor can refuse to supply documents which you have disclosed you already have

 

also if you have based your defence on the documents YOU have in your possession- and what comes back from 31.14 is different- you have backed yourself into a corner and will have to apply to amend your defence

 

the golden rule is that you can NEVER enter a defence until you have all the documentation supporting the claimants claim

 

it could well be that the creditor no longer has the agreement and/or that they provide a reconstruction which might be different from what you have

 

That is the way I read it as well. In my case the solicitors failed to comply with the CPR 31.14 request of the unallocated claim, stating that they didn't have a copy of the documents referred to in the PoC (which begs the question of how on earth can a claim be even issued on such a basis?). The creditor only partly complied with the s78 CCA request, providing a signed application form, lacking the prescribed terms and bearing a different date than the date stated in the PC, with separate T&Cs, just a couple of days before the deadline for me to submit my defence.

 

I submitted an embarrassed defence, stating that the failure to comply with CPR 31.14 was such that I had not had sight of the documents on which the claim was made and seeking leave to file an amended defence should those documents be provided, whilst acknowledging the documents received in response to the s78 CCA request. Several weeks after that defence went in, and after another reminder letter from me about that non-compliance, the solicitors produced another copy of the same documents produced for the s78 CCA request.

 

To the layman it appears wholly unreasonable to embark upon a claim without already having the appropriate documents in place, but after a year of dealing with this, it seems that isn't unusual in the slightest.

 

Given the Carey case, which, on the face of it gives a huge amount of leeway in what is permitted to be produced for an s78 CCA request in terms of the information purpose, it becomes even more important to utilise CPR 31.14 before the AQ stage.

[diddydicky]

whatever is produced in response to a s78 it has nothing to do with the requirement to produce the documentary evidence mentioned or referred to in the POC (which may or may not be documents as under s78)

 

you are right that there was a breach of protocol in the claimant bringing the claim when he did not have that evidence and an application to strike out as an abuse of process may have been in order

 

however UNTIL the claimant has provided ALL documents mentioned or referred to in a POC NO defence should ever be entered- since a defence IS a defence Is a defence and if you submit one- then you have defended!!

 

 

 

quite simply- your "defence" needs simply to be that you CANNOT SUBMIT a defence- until the claimant fully particularises his claim - which he cannot do until he provides the documents mentioned in his POC (and maybe some other information not mentioned by the claimant in his POC- but required by the defendant under cpr 18 i order to fully defend the claim

 

The CPR31.14 request should be accompanied by a request for a time extention (and a threat that you will make an application to the court with costs if they refuse) and MUST be followed - if the deadline passes- with a formal application to the court to force the claimant to comply with your 31.14 request

 

IMO

[Notasniceasjoe]

Agreed - if you make the point that an application to the court will be made if that CPR 31.14 is not complied with then you MUST follow through with that intention and make that application.

 

If you do not do so and the deadline for the defence approaches then a two paragraph embarassed defence will have to be made, otherwise the claimant wins by default. That isn't a good position to en up in.

 

If the claimant complies with the CPR 31.14 request the day before that deadline then that is actually worse than them not replying at all, since the defendant will have very limited time to put together the defence. The abuse of process in such cases is obvious.

[diddydicky]

Agreed - if you make the point that an application to the court will be made if that CPR 31.14 is not complied with then you MUST follow through with that intention and make that application.

 

If you do not do so and the deadline for the defence approaches then a two paragraph embarassed defence will have to be made, otherwise the claimant wins by default. That isn't a good position to en up in.

 

If the claimant complies with the CPR 31.14 request the day before that deadline then that is actually worse than them not replying at all, since the defendant will have very limited time to put together the defence. The abuse of process in such cases is obvious.

 

which is why the 31.14 should always be accompanied by the request for an extension - which can be amended to state that you will have 14 days to file a defence upon receipt of the documents requested

[Gallahad]

These Posts have been moved from an original "Information only " thread

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?159445-Getting-Them-To-Reveal-Their-Vitals.-Using-CPR-31.14-to-Your-Advantage/page14

 

 

In a press release today a high court judge in wales slated MBNA for torturring a defendant with incessant phone calls and wrote off a card balance of over £20,000 because they failed to supply terms and conditions at the time of signing. This at least proves the banks and government have not got control over all the judiciary yet.

G

Edited February 26, 2014 by citizenB

[frettful38]

In a press release today a high court judge in wales slated MBNA for torturring a defendant with incessant phone calls and wrote off a card balance of over £20,000 because they failed to supply terms and conditions at the time of signing. This at least proves the banks and government have not got control over all the judiciary yet.

G

 

Agreed Gallahad and here is the clipping

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12622318

[citizenB]

Asterions enquiry and posts connected eg Undercover Elsa and bazaar, have been moved to asterions thread. Anyone able to assist please follow this link.

 

asterion's thread

[citizenB]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?299073-ParaBellum-v-GnatantiEast

 

ParaBellum's enquiry and subsequent responses have been moved a dedicated thread. Linked above.

[f1owers]

Hi - in dire need of help please. My time for submitting a Defence is rapidly running out. The solicitors have failed to reply to my CPR request and am unsure now how to proceed - file an embarassed defence, finalise the Defence I have been working on, applying for a time extension or applying to strike out. My thread is here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?300795-HELP-PLEASE-Claim-Form-received!!!

 

Many thanks

[disgruntled2007]

hi - in dire need of help please. My time for submitting a defence is rapidly running out. The solicitors have failed to reply to my cpr request and am unsure now how to proceed - file an embarassed defence, finalise the defence i have been working on, applying for a time extension or applying to strike out. My thread is here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?300795-help-please-claim-form-received!!!

 

many thanks

 

strike out!

[Bosund]

Subbing,...

[andrew1]

strike out!

 

If a case is struck out and there's a repossession claim being made by the claimant with a balance owing on the loan, what actually happens to the remaining debt and repossession situation with regards to getting the title removed then?

[LeeJohnson888]

I have to base this question on an imaginary "HypotheticalSituation", OK.

If a document has been identified in pleadings.

Q1; Could I use CPR 34.14 to demand that they provide me with a copy of sucha document?

If there should be a Penal Order regarding the document, in say a Higher Court, andthe Penal Order was issued before the pleadings, in a lower court or tribunal,were issued.

Q2; Have they committed Contempt of Court, in the higher court, by identifyingthe document in their pleadings?

If a document was claimed to be covered by legal privilege, and if a PenalOrder was in force for such a document.

Q3; Has any aspect of legal privilege been waived or lost by referring tothe document in their pleadings?

Regards, Lee

[citizenB]

I have to base this question on an imaginary "HypotheticalSituation", OK.

If a document has been identified in pleadings.

Q1; Could I use CPR 34.14 to demand that they provide me with a copy of sucha document?

If there should be a Penal Order regarding the document, in say a Higher Court, andthe Penal Order was issued before the pleadings, in a lower court or tribunal,were issued.

Q2; Have they committed Contempt of Court, in the higher court, by identifyingthe document in their pleadings?

If a document was claimed to be covered by legal privilege, and if a PenalOrder was in force for such a document.

Q3; Has any aspect of legal privilege been waived or lost by referring tothe document in their pleadings?

Regards, Lee

 

Any document mentioned in the pleadings can be requested via CPR31.14.

[MrZ]

Hi All

 

Could someone please clear a point up for me on the cpr 31.14? I have a set aside hearing in 3 weeks and think that I should issue the cpr (reading what everyone says). The thing that is getting me muddled is the request for 'an extension of time for me to file a defence'. If the court date is set (by the court) how can the dca give an extension of time? Or is it that the 'defence' in this case would be that submitted if the set aside wasn't granted, and this went to bancruptcy? I have the letter waiting for a stamp but I don't want to send this out and look a complete idiot if it's not appropriate.

 

A little more info might be helpful. Whats the set aside hearing for? Did you make an application to set aside a CCJ? On what grounds are you asking the Judgment to be set aside?

 

Generally speaking, you wouldnt be filing a defence until after the court ordered the Judgment be set aside. It might be helpful to have a draft defense for the court to review should it be requested.

 

To get a Judgment set aside you need to have "a reasonable prospect for defending the claim". So as far as the defence goes you need not defend the entire claim at a set aside hearing, you need only establish that if the Judgment is set aside, you have some grounds on which to defend the claim.

 

Beside the above, unless and until the court sets aside the Judgment, you cant file a defence anyway, the court staff will reject it as it is "out of time".

 

You can file a draft defence to be review at the hearing which will outline your defence, and this could be used by the court to determine if you have a prospect of defending the claim. It's not necessary though and the Judge will more than likely just ask what the basis of your defence will be.

 

If you do file a draft defence, you will either need to give an extra copy to the court to send to the other party, or send a copy to the other party yourself, and then file a certificate of service (form N215) with the court. There is no fee to file and serve the N215.

 

 

If you provide a little more background information someone may offer more specific advice, but based on what you have said, I dont see why you would need to be requesting any documents from the other party until after the set aside hearing...unless you need to document to make your draft defence, which unless the court has ordered you to prepare one for the hearing, isnt required.

[MrZ]

You dont do anything until its (if) set a side.

Regards

Andy

 

 

Jut saw this Much more terse than my reply but essentially the same. I dont think you need to.

[Bobity]

Thanks all so much for that! It clarifies. The set aside is for a statutory demand by CQ, my reasons

 

egg agreement from 2000 - missing prescribed terms

no default notice

no proper letter of assignment

using bancrupty threat as method of debt collection

 

Also, CQ accused me of not paying them as agreed, which I was and could prove -but they slapped a load of interest on and didn't remove it when they realised they were wrong (not that they admitted being wrong). They only took off the interest 'as a gesture of goodwill' when I started down this long and wearisome path!

 

So glad I hung on to the cpr3.14 request. I didn't quite know why, but it wasn't making sense to send it. Clear now.

 

Thanks again

Edited September 15, 2011 by Bobity
spelling

[Cheekypomme]

Hi, I realise this was many moons ago but wondered if you could help.

I have just sent a sec.78 to Morgans/Cabot requesting documentation of me owing Capial One C/Card 10k from 3yrs ago.

They sent me a County Court Claim form from Northampton so I logged onto moneyclaim.gov.uk to acknowledge and did the procedure to ask for more time.

Do I still do a CPR 31.14 as well?

I'm struggling to understand all this terminology of the advice that people are kindly giving me.

Thanks so much for any help you can give me!

[the_shadow]

Hi, I realise this was many moons ago but wondered if you could help.

I have just sent a sec.78 to Morgans/Cabot requesting documentation of me owing Capial One C/Card 10k from 3yrs ago.

They sent me a County Court Claim form from Northampton so I logged onto moneyclaim.gov.uk to acknowledge and did the procedure to ask for more time.

Do I still do a CPR 31.14 as well?

I'm struggling to understand all this terminology of the advice that people are kindly giving me.

Thanks so much for any help you can give me!

 

Hi Cheeky..

 

IMO its imperitive you get your CPR 31.14 sent off ASAP to request the information mentioned in the claim details. This thread is not really kept up to date anymore so you would be better asking for advice on your own thread which means its tailored to your requirements.

 

Cheeky's thread can be found here ---> http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?322325-Urgent-Help!-Cabot-have-issued-County-Court-Order

 

S.

[Rhino69]

With regard to gaining information. Can I request the full details of the names and addresses of all personnel involved with my account from the chairman down to the post boy?

 

If threatened with court, can I demand the attendance of the Chairman/CEO and all personnel involved in court to be questioned about my account, their actions and explanation of their charges and interest and demand full disclosure of the amount that my debt was sold to a DCA for?

 

I believe that if the company in question had to have all of these people attend court, then they would think twice about their losses.

 

Ry

[the_shadow]

With regard to gaining information. Can I request the full details of the names and addresses of all personnel involved with my account from the chairman down to the post boy?

 

If threatened with court, can I demand the attendance of the Chairman/CEO and all personnel involved in court to be questioned about my account, their actions and explanation of their charges and interest and demand full disclosure of the amount that my debt was sold to a DCA for?

 

I believe that if the company in question had to have all of these people attend court, then they would think twice about their losses.

 

Ry

 

No that frankly would be ridiculous. Cpr 31.14 has a defined scope that must be kept to or you lose the benefit of a judge agreeing to your demands.

 

S.

[the worm that turned]

...

Dear Sir,

 

Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No:

CPR 31.14 Request

 

On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) County Court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.

 

[Prior to the issue of proceedings I had delivered a request for the production of the agreement mentioned in the Claim Form and on which you rely. That request was ignored][delete if no such request was delivered]

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1 the agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

2 the assignment*

 

3 the default notice*

 

4 the termination notice*

 

5 [any other documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim]*

 

* delete if not mentioned in the Particulars of claim.

 

[Although your claim is for a sum which is not more than £5,000.00 and will in all likelihood be allocated to the small claims track for determination upon my delivering a defence, at this moment in time I have not delivered my defence and the case has not been allocated to a track. In consequence the provisions of CPR 27(2) are of no effect and you should not seek to avoid compliance with your CPR 31 duties by claiming otherwise]#

 

# delete if claim for a sum exceeding £5,000.00

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

yours faithfully

 

 

I have a comment to make in relation to the OP in relation to a CPR 31.14 request that I feel is EXTREMELY important. I too am potentially using this approach for my case (see here) and want to share this with you.

 

In the draft letter above I have highlighted in red certain key words that I think may hinder the sender.

 

If you say "the agreement" or "the default notice" in a signed document intended for use with the court or anywhere else, then you are already admitting their existence.

 

A Judge in a court can only act upon what you or the opponent says or produces in court. He has to make a judgement upon what he sees/hears and this must be made in line with the law.

 

So if you already admit to the existence of the document in your documentation and/or what you say then he/she must assume it exists.

 

I hope you see the vital importance of what I am saying.

 

Today I will be constructing a draft CPR 31.14 notice for my case, which again can be found here.

 

This is in no way a dig at the OP or anyone else here, I want to help and I want to get things right in my case and help others if I can.

 

[citizenB]

Worm, I am not quite sure of the point you are trying to make. Only those items mentioned in the Particulars of Claim can be requested. If they are mentioned, then the defendant is entitled to request them.. it doesnt mean that it is admitted they exist.. but if they do.. (s)he wants to see a copy.

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

[the worm that turned]

Worm, I am not quite sure of the point you are trying to make. Only those items mentioned in the Particulars of Claim can be requested. If they are mentioned, then the defendant is entitled to request them.. it doesnt mean that it is admitted they exist.. but if they do.. (s)he wants to see a copy.

 

Hi CitizenB - firstly, thanks for commenting on my own thread

 

With regards to the above - the point I am making is that whatever they (Claimant) is saying in their POC is purely allegation unless proven (i.e. I could say that you owe me 10,000,000 squiggles following a contract we made on planet zula). If you responded to me with "show me the contract" then you are admitting that it exists, however you would like to see it for your own purposes. Whereas if you said "show me the alleged contract referred to in your POC" then you are not admitting any such contract exists.

 

I hope that is clearer.

 

Cheers - TWTT