Log Book Loan Bill of sale question

[nat]

Hi,

 

Am I right in thinking that if you get a top up to your log book loan and sign a new agreement, a new bill of sale has to be registered within 7 days?

[Guest]

if a new bill, or even variation, then does seem as if it or the variation would need to be reregistered accordingly? but, was it registerable in the first place?

[nat]

Just received all paperwork by email

 

BOS was stamped on the 5th day,

 

but the instalment amounts differ on the BOS to the actual credit agreement,

 

any thoughts on this?

[stu007]

Hi nat

 

Sorry but I have had to edit your post and remove the attachments as you could see identifying details under the marker you used we would always prefer that you remain anonymous.

 

If you need to upload document do the following:

 

 

**You can post up images/letters by this method immediately. You don't need 10 posts**

 

Set your default scan page size to A4 less than 300DPI [150 will do]

scan the required letters/agreements/sheets - as a picture[jpg] file

don't forget you can use a mobile phone or a digital camera too!!

 

BUT......

ENSURE: Remove all personal info inc. barcodes etc.but leave all monetary figures and dates.

 

************************* **********************************************************

(DO NOT USE A BIRO OR PEN OR USE SEE THRU TAPE OR LABELS)

************************* ************************* *********************************

 

DO IT IN MSPAINT.EXE or any photo editing program go to one of the many free online pdf converter websites http://freejpgtopdf.com/

 

if you have multiple scans/pics - put them in a word doc FIRST and convert that to PDF

or http://www.freepdfconvert.com/ or use www.pdfmerge.com

 

convert existing PC files to PDF (office has an installable print to PDFoption)

 

it would be better to upload a multipage pdf if you have many images too rather than multiple single pdfs

 

or if you have PDF as an installed printer drive use that or use word and save as pdf

 

try and logically name your file so people know what it is.

though dont use full bank names or CAG in the title

i'e Default notice DD-mm-yyyy TSB

 

open a new msg box here

hit go advanced below the msg box

hit manage attachments below that box

hit the add files button on the top right

hit select files, navigate to your file on your pc

hit upload files

 

YOU DONT have to put a link to the attachment in the msg box.. just upload it..job done

[dx100uk]

follow the guide please

 

dx

[nat]

try these

[dx100uk]

they can't be differing amounts.

 

heres some notes I've gathered:

 

logbook loan repossessions are not always legal,

.

if linked to a CCA agreement or if the BOS has not been registered with the high court.

.

If BOS registered then yes they can reposses,

but have to show registration and debt details.

Registration

A bill of sale can only be enforced if it was properly registered.

Since this is an expensive and difficult process,

it is rare that this actually happens.

However, failure to register the bill of sale renders it void,

and so renders any security on goods void.

.

Consequently, before allowing any creditor to gain possession of your goods,

ask to see a registered copy of the bill showing the supreme courts seal.

.

You can also call the national debt line, and ask them how to search the registry yourself.

.

Also a valid DN must be issued.

.

If linked to a CCA then can not reposses if on private property without a court order

( but can if on public road and under a third has only been paid ).

.

Over a third, they need a court order wherever it is.

.

check for...[bOS]

.

No Independant signature

No Indapendant Witness

Not Registered With The High Court In 7 Days

not registered AT ALL!

.

Credit Agreement Details Not On The Bill Of Sale

.

how to check:

.

email:[email protected] ov.uk.[no spaces]

.

ring:020 7947 7772

.

write:

QB Enforcement Section,

Room E15-E17,

Royal Courts of Justice,

Strand, London, WC2A

...

.

ideally you need the BOS number

.

however

they can search by the Reg Number

.

...............

dx

[nat]

The only signatures on both the bill of sale and and the credit agreement are mine and the manager of mobile money.

 

There is no independent witness.

[dx100uk]

that BOS must be ind witnessed too.!!

 

dx

[nat]

So does that mean they are both void?

[dx100uk]

as far as I can see yes

 

would be nice if someone like theoldrouge could comment too

 

dx

[theoldrouge]

yes absolutly with dx on this one.

 

The credit ag and BOS cant be different amounts,

 

the ag totals 9800.77

the bos totals 9770.89

 

in breach of the essential contents of a bill of sale.

 

In addition the witness cannot be the manager of mobile money, must be independent.

 

A valid dn under s87 with the opportunity to apply for a time order must be given.

 

In addition

as dx says

because linked to cca1974 cannot repossess from private property without a court order at anytime

[nat]

Ok thanks, sorry for sounding a bit dim, but what do I do next?

[theoldrouge]

What is your current situation as regards this ac.? it would also be useful if you could post up the other two pages of your agreement

[nat]

What is your current situation as regards this ac.? it would also be useful if you could post up the other two pages of your agreement

 

I'm up to date at the moment.

 

Other 2 pages are attached.

[theoldrouge]

well purely on the witness sig/lender sig the bos is obviously void.,

 

which means in effect that they have lost their security.

 

Need more time to see whether the credit ag itself is enforceable or not.

 

It would be interesting to see if the security itself was improperly executed under s105, as this would trigger s106

which enables the debtor to reclaim all amounts paid by virtue of the security

 

so will have a longer look at this

 

-where are you hoping to go with this?

[nat]

Thanks so much for this, I am quite willing to pay it back, just want to get the security off my car and to be able to pay it back at my own rate really. But if I can reclaim all amounts paid, that would be a bonus!

[nat]

Just had a message to say that I will default next week.

[theoldrouge]

Now had a long look at this, and

 

I regret to say the OFT lost the Attestation (witness) Issue by a majority of 2 to1 on appeal.

 

(Nine Regions t/a LogbookLoans v OFT Case no GC/1048/2011)

 

so the bos cannot be regarded as void on the witness issue.

 

It would seem your only way is if the BOS has not been registered with the High Court within the 7 days allowed.

 

All cases based on s140 unfair relationships seem to have been lost or lost on appeal as regards the credit agreement

(which seems to contain all the prescribed terms,

which would preclude the slightly different figures argument.

 

The only positives are any default notice must comply with s87,and must allow you 14 days to remedy

and the opportunity to apply for a time order.

 

The other being that from feb2011, these firms are expected to follow the Govt Code of Practice-

 

If a borrower gets into difficulty lenders must consider proposals for alternative payment arrangements

and will reposses the car only if attempts to arrange alternative payment arrangements fail

 

-Also did you receive the bos infomation sheet before signing?

 

sorry I cannot be more positive with this

[nat]

Just noticed that the credit agreement is dated one month before the Bill of sale. Would this, in conjunction with the differing amounts have any effect on the validity of either?

[theoldrouge]

I was unable to find a sucessful case based on s140, all were lost or lost on appeal

[Guest]

heres the oft list re 'unfair' cases (up to 2013), haven't looked thru them so don't know if any are relevant or in favour. for yr perusal.

http://www.oft.gov.uk/about-the-oft/legal-powers/legal/cca/CCA2006/unfair/unfair-rel-full/

[dx100uk]

I thought the BOS had to be registered within 7 days of the purchase/CCA??

[nat]

Date on credit agreement is 17/06/2013,

 

date on BOS is 17/07/2013 and

 

BOS was registered 22/07/2013.

 

There are also differing repayment amounts on CCA and BOS.

[theoldrouge]

OFT COMMENTARY ON BILLS OF SALE*

-(this was their guidance prior to their lost appeal,some of which may help)

In researching the area of car finance two authorities gave us details of cars being sold under a Bill of Sale.

We have looked at the Bills of Sale Acts (BSA) and their interaction with consumer credit legislation and the Office's view is set out below.

We have also researched how to check if a Bill of Sale has been registered.

Royal Courts of Justice

The Bill of Sale must be witnessed and registered at the Royal Courts of Justice,

in the time and manner set out in the BSA,

otherwise it will be void and cannot be treated as a licence to take possession.

You can check if this has been carried out by making a written request to the Court

and paying £5 or visiting there in person and searching the register for free.

To search you need to

know the name of the borrower,

address and

the year of registration.

The entries in the register are made alphabetically in the name of the borrower.

 

The address is:

Room E17, East Block Ground Floor, Royal Courts of Justice, Strand, London WC2A 2LL**

Bills of Sale Acts

As we understand the position –

a. Buying a car under a bill of sale will be a regulated consumer credit agreement

 

b. The goods will not become ‘protected’ in the same way as for hire-purchase agreements

(for which section 90 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 provides that if the consumer has paid one-third

or more of the total price of the goods, the creditor cannot recover possession except by judicial proceedings or consent).

 

c. However, the creditor will not be able to enforce the security unless he has first served a default notice

under section 87 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and this has expired

(after not less than 14 days) without remedy or the debtor applying to the court for relief.

 

d. If the creditor repossesses without a valid default notice,

the consumer may apply for an injunction or a time order,

or seek damages for breach of contract.

 

On this basis,

whilst the consumer will have less protection under a bill of sale than under a hirepurchase agreement,

he will not be completely unprotected, and the creditor will be at risk of licensing action if he acts unfairly.

 

In addition –

e. The bill of sale is given as security, and where this is provided in relation to a regulated consumer credit agreement

it must comply with section 105 Consumer Credit Act 1974. f.

The credit agreement must embody any security,

by virtue of regulation 2(8) of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983.

A document embodies a provision if the provision is set out in it or in another document referred to in it

(a bill of sale will usually be incorporated by reference).

 

g. The debtor must be provided with a copy of the bill of sale, pursuant to sections 62 and 63 Consumer Credit Act 1974,

since this is a document referred to in the credit agreement.

h. If the bill of sale does not comply with section 105 of the Act it will be unenforceable by virtue of section 106.

Furthermore, if the credit agreement does not comply with the Consumer Credit Act 1974 so that it is unenforceable,

this will preclude the exercise of any remedies under the bill of sale (except pursuant to a court order where relevant).

 

i. The bill of sale must also comply with the statutory provisions in the Bills of Sale Acts.

In particular, it must be in the form given in the schedule to the Bills of Sale Act (1878) Amendment Act 1882,

otherwise it will be void and cannot be treated as a licence to take possession.

 

j. The bill of sale must also be witnessed and registered (at the relevant department of the Supreme Court)

in the time and manner set out in the Bills of Sale Acts,

otherwise it will be void in respect of the chattels comprised in it.

 

1k. In practice, the majority of such bills of sale may well be unenforceable

because the provisions of the Bills of Sale Acts are unlikely to have been followed,

and even if they have, the relevant requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 must also be satisfied.

 

l. The bill of sale and related credit agreement may also be susceptible to action under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999

or under the extortionate credit bargain provisions of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

m.Whether title can pass to a third party where there is a valid bill of sale

will depend upon whether the bill transfers legal or equitable title to the grantee,

and each case would need to be looked at on its facts.

 

The Bills of Sale Acts are unduly complex and outdated, and should be reviewed

– as recommended by the Crowther Committee in 1971.

We suspect however that BERR will be unwilling to include this in the current Consumer Credit Act 1974 Review

unless there is clear evidence of consumer detriment.

You may wish to bring your concerns to the BERR’s attention by

writing to –

Consumer Affairs Directorate, Department of Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform, 1

Victoria Street, London SW1H 0ET

 

* I have updated this guidance to take account of legal and governmental changes

 

** The office where the register is kept is not easy to locate,

but, if you enter the main Court building on the Strand,

and ask at the enquiry desk immediately beyond the security desks,

they will give you a sheet of directions.