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InnoSaint

PCN by post/Bus Lane, appeal rejected - I have new evidence

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Nothing can be read because of the small pictures.

But the photos seem somehow very dark

 

There is something wrong with this website. It automatically reduces the size of the images. Maybe an admin can contact me with an explanation. I can't post external links and the website reduces the image size.

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There is something wrong with this website. It automatically reduces the size of the images. Maybe an admin can contact me with an explanation. I can't post external links and the website reduces the image size.

 

Turn them into PDF's.


Please consider making a small donation to help keep this site running

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

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Heres the enforcement notice attached in a pdf document.

 

What strikes me about this (I may have it wrong) is that the EN tells me how to pay in great deal and also tells me I can make formal representations, and gives me space to write the formal representations in but nowhere does it state where the formal appeal should be sent or forwarded to.

 

Of course I just sent them recorded to the same address I sent the informal representations to.

 

More of an update in the next post.

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So I made my formal representations to the council last month. I highlighted:

 

-My disappointment in their rejection-given that they rejected without addressing any of my points

-The reason why I had ended up on the bus lane was because of defective signs (which I highlighted in my informal appeal and they rejected them saying that they have checked and have found them to all be valid) and provided the council with evidence of them

-Highlighted the signs had been defective for over 2 months

-Made a request under the FoI act to provide a figure of the amount of enforcements made on that stretch during the defective signs period

-Pointed out that the CCTV footage does not show any signage or road markings

-Pointed out the council have breached their procedures by sending Enforcement Notice before the 28 day period was over

-Councils failure to provide CCTV footage for over 6 weeks and after over a dozen requests

-Provided a secondary explanation of defective signage + adverse weather conditions + unfamiliarity of location all leading to the contravention occurring.

 

I asked the council in a separate request for CCTV footage from a day before the alleged contravention occurred to prove the signs were defective and I was told that they no longer hold the footage as they delete all footage after 31 days. I then asked them for footage of the signage within the last 31 days which would also show the signs to be defective and they told me "The cameras used to enforce River Road are ‘LaneWatch cameras’ which capture contraventions only and not CCTV cameras. As such only the contravention is recorded and not the Bus Lane or the Signage." I then requested details of signage repairs and was told that TFL are responsible for them. TFL said they would get back to me with details within 20 days but they have failed to.

 

Anyway, the council have responded to my formal representations and have rejected them, again without addressing any points I had made, other than that of the FoI. I now have 28 days to either make payment or make an application to an adjudicator. Any help or advice/comments on this? I think someone mentioned to ask for a oral hearing. Can I also request for the camera operative to be present? Should I send photocopies of all communications with the council to the adjudicator? Or should I just keep it very basic and have all the files ready for the actual hearing instead? Also the councils communications are addressed to the vehicle owner, where as im the named driver, will this cause an issue? Should I specify this to the adjudicator or is this of little importance?

 

I have attached the notice of rejection to this post.

Edited by InnoSaint
adding a point

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I would base your representation mainly on the sign turned around of which I believe you have photographic evidence.

Supported by their own pictures where the road markings are practically invisible.

All the rest is corroborative.

You need to send all your evidence to the adjudication office.

It's best to number all the pieces you have in your file so you can refer to them easily on the day and the adjudicator can follow you easily.

Don't forget to include the fact that they send you an enforcement notice issued before the 28 days which is an act of gross procedural impropriety.

Keep it simple but very detailed.

The more evidence you have the better.

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Thanks for your input King.

 

Is the fact that the enforcement notice didnt contain information on where to send formal representations a point I should also be making? Also the councils delay to provide the video recording for over 6 weeks and after a dozen or so requests?

 

I will see if I can upload the pictures of the sign in a pdf like ive done with the EN and NOR above so you can understand better the situation from the motorists POV.

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Yes, all of these points need to be listed in the representation as procedural impropriety.

Councils are very sneaky and disorganised.

They make their money by issuing as many pcn as they can.

Let's say they issue 100 pcn for example.

50 people will just pay them.

The other 50 will appeal and get their appeal rejected.

Out of these 50 a very small number will go to adjudication, let's say 5.

Even if these 5 won at adjudication stage, the council would have cashed in 95 pcn and still made a large amount of money with very little admin expenses.

Us motorists are a cash cow for them.

  • Confused 1

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Thank you king, very insightful and encouraging post.

 

About the repairs to the sign, the council say they didnt do any repairs as its Tfl that are responsible for them and Tfl have also said that they carried out no repairs to the sign. Signs dont repair themselves so I dont know what to make of it and whether submitting the information obtained using the FoI act would support or harm my case if I provided these details to the adjudicator. I intend to send off my form either today or tomorrow. On one hand the council may claim the signs were never faulty (despite my evidence) unless i tampered with them myself or the adjudicator may think I am suggesting the anomaly is some sort of cover up and I may lose credibility.

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You have pictures of the signs being turned around.

This is sufficient imo to have the pcn cancelled.

The road markings are invisible in their own pictures and the sign 'at any time' on its own means absolutely nothing.

When asked if you use that road frequently you will have to say that it was the first time you used it.

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Also, can you say what's on the 'location' field in the original pcn?

There should be clear indication of where the alleged contravention took place, but many councils just write the road name without even a postcode.

If you're lucky you might find that there are other streets with the same name in the borough and have another point of appeal.

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Thanks again King. Any opinions on whether the FoI findings should be included or omitted?

 

The video footage also shows another vehicle indicating to come into the bus lane and then starting the manoever to proceeding to change into the bus lane, so clearly I wasnt the only person inadvertently duped into using the bus lane either. Im considering taking snapshots from the video and adding this as another point of appeal.

 

I will look to see if theres anymore River roads in the area, although I dont think there is, but the current one is very long, maybe 3 miles or so and bends etc. Without having a technical knowledge of how to use co ordinates from the pictures and convert them with google maps to find the point on a map, it would have been very difficult to ascertain the point of alleged contravention. It confused me for several hours as I was trying to figure out which side of the road I got it on as I had also returned via that route that evening.

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that's a good point.

A pcn must indicate the exact location of the alleged contravention so the motorist can check for themselves the restrictions in that particular point.

There's a case I referred to in one of my appeals about not being able to locate the exact point.

I'll dig it out and let you know, unless someone has a better memory than me :-D

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Just opened the post and I have a Charge Certificate from the council.

 

They really are hungry SOB's.

 

Their NoR was dated Thursday 17th April and it said I had 28 days to pay the full amount OR appeal to the adjudicator from the date the notice was DELIVERED. I received the NoR on Saturday but could have easily have received it on Monday. Anyway I sent the appeal off to the adjudicator on 14th May and they received it on the 16th, which is within 28 days whichever way you calculate it. Yet on the 23rd they sent me out this charge certificate.

 

It says to make payment within 14 days or they are taking me to court. Not to sure what action to take, if any. Any advice?

 

Are the council being over zealous or should they have been contacted by the adjudicators by now? I dont want to ignore the Charge certificate and then have bailiffs chasing me.

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Another gross procedural impropriety.

Contact the adjudicator office and let them know that the LA is harassing you with threats even though you have appealed.

This pcn appeal will only go one way...yours!

Make sure that after you win you make an application for costs mentioning my favourite reason: the LA acted in a vexatious way and deliberately did not comply with procedures and FIA causing you anxiety and undue stress exacerbated by their threats.

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Thank you king for once again a very insightful response.

 

I will forward a copy of the charge certificate alongside my comments to the adjudicators office on Tuesday. I may also ring the LA on Tuesday and ask them what they're playing at. May record the call too.

 

The LA are being way to wayward.

 

I may need to pick your brains regarding application of costs at a later stage. Thanks for all your help. Much appreciated.

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Hi King (and others), just an update:

 

I spoke to PATAS and they have said that they have not notified the council of a registered case yet because it is 'inconsistent'.

 

I am not the registered keeper of the car and they therefore need an authorisation letter from the registered keeper to say that they give consent to myself to deal with this pcn on their behalf. I am the named driver on the car insurance.

 

They have said that I can contact the LA and explain this to them, but I dont want to contact them if I dont have to. Any comments or advice?

 

I have sent PATAS the authorisation document they have requested today. Once they receive this they said they will notify the LA that an appeal has been registered.

 

I asked PATAS what would have happened if I did not contact them to tell them I have received a Charge Certificate from the council and they said that they would have posted a letter to me in due course anyway to ask me for an authorisation letter. So calling them and finding out has just saved some time (assuming they receive it without any hiccups).

 

So as far as I am concerned I would not have known of any irregularity until the point I received a letter from PATAS in the post and up until that point I would have been under the impression that the council have acted unlawfully, had I not called.

 

I just dont want to contact the council and have to explain anything to them if I dont have to.

 

What would you guys do? Would you bite the bullet and inform the LA just in case they take further action after no payment has been received after 14 days or would you risk and feel that they will stop their processes, or even cancel the charge certificate themselves once they receive notification of an appeal from PATAS (which should be within the 14 days of the CC anyway)?

 

Thanks for any input.

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Send the council an email or recorded delivery letter.

I always leave a written trail of all communication in case they claim they never spoke to anyone.

You don't have to send the letter recorded delivery, but I like to have proof of delivery (online signature) instead of proof of postage.

If patas didn't notify the LA then they issued the notice to keeper correctly.

They won't cancel the pcn at this stage.

It will go to adjudication

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Hi all.

 

My adjudication date was set for next week and I was looking forward to going and presenting my case against the council in person. I was also going to make an application of costs to the adjudicators as I believe and had evidence to suggest that the LEA have continuously acted in an unreasonable and vexatious way.

 

Anyway I have received a letter today from the council informing me that they will not be contesting the appeal and that I do not need to attend the PATAS hearing. A little disappointed that they made me go through so much, over a period of 6 months, to go and cancel it of their own accord a week before adjudication. I wonder how many would have caved before this point and paid off their PCN, whether it was lawful or not. All this could have been avoided if they had just looked at my appeal to them objectively and in light of the evidence presented. No doubt that it what they have done now and assessed their merits of success and awards being made against them and decided to cancel it.

 

Is this effectively the absolute end of the matter or do I have any rights to do/claim anything further? The LEA have still not responded to my Freedom of Information request, which they were obliged to do within 20 days. I think I will start by reporting that to the ICO.

 

Thank you very much to everyone who posted here to help, I dont think I could have persevered for as long without your moral support and guidance.

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