PCN by post/Bus Lane, appeal rejected - I have new evidence

[InnoSaint]

Hi guys, new here so I hope I conform to set posting standards. Any issues, please point them out.

 

Anyway, I got a PCN by the council through the post for "BEING IN A BUS LANE".

 

I think the PCN itself didnt contain any errors which would make it invalid. The photographic pictures show that I did indeed briefly use the bus lane. I was surprised at myself that I would drive in a bus lane without realising it, so at the time I put it down to it being dark and raining heavily, causing glare off the road surface.

 

I appealed the ticket on many grounds, including compassionate, highlighting the set of circumstances which caused the offence to take place as well as many bus regulations which I believed wernt met. I expressed the fact that there was no traffic in either lanes, so no advantage was gained or buses obstructed in the use of the bus lane (which I must have used for a max of approx 50 metres before I turned left).

 

I really didnt think it would get rejected, but the council have said there are no grounds on which it can be cancelled.

 

The next procedure they say is that I can either pay it at half price (£65) within 14 days or pay the full within day 15-28 and if im not happy with their decision and want to make a formal representation to the council I should not pay them at all and wait for an enforcement notice. If they do not accept my formal representations then I can take it to an independent adjudicator, but I lose the right to pay half price after this current point.

 

Anyway, the following is the reason why im posting on here:

 

I have 3 grounds of complaint with the council-

 

1) There was not enough space on their website to make my informal appeal (I ran out of characters and had to therefore print out the letter and post it recorded the next day. I would have been screwed if I was attempting to submit my appeal on the last day on their website)

2) I requested video evidence from their website, which highlighted that they would email me with a link or something of it within 24 hours. This didnt happen.

3) I realised after I sent my letter of appeal that the bus lane signage was not correctly displayed-which I now believe was most likely the reason why I failed to realise I was in the bus lane to begin with.

 

Basically the camera enforcement sign is there, as is the time plate which states 'at any time' but the main big sign which is supposed to show the restrictions and limitations of the lane to include only buses, motorbikes and taxis is turned 180 degrees to face the oncoming traffic, so would not be seen by the motorists approaching the bus lane.

 

Would this be a valid ground on which to resist making payment? If its not a valid argument that will overturn the ticket then ill just make the payment but I suspect a lot of people have been caught out by this. I have noticed the sign to have been like that for a few weeks now, so believe it must have been this way at the time of enforcement too. I have taken pictures so you can see what I mean. In any case, the signs are right at the start of the bus lane and not 30 metres beforehand, which I recall reading somewhere that they should be.

 

Do I have good grounds to resist or do I not have a chance in hell and should just pay up? Does it matter that I didnt mention this issue in my original appeal? Should I write back to them now or should I ride it out and follow their set procedure?

 

If I do have a case, what should I say/cite? Any drafts would be appreciated.

 

Many thanks guys. You have a great community here, where everyone is pulling together to help the common man against what seem like unscrupulous capitalist councils.

[sailor sam]

Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

If you choose to take the matter to the adjudicator and lose, you would indeed lose the discount. But If the signage was facing the wrong way, then you should take it all the far PROVIDING you can show evidence that it was. If CCTV is available, you should have the right to view it.

[InnoSaint]

Thank you Sailor Sam

 

I have again just put in the request to view the video evidence. Hopefully I will get to see it this time round.

 

What im afraid of is that the CCTV video might not pick up the sign and/or the beginning of the bus lane. I dont know how else to provide evidence for it. The sign, 8 weeks on is still swivelled away from approaching traffic.

 

Also I have only a few days left to pay the pcn off at the lower rate. Beyond the 14 days of their rejection to my informal appeal, the council say I lose my right to pay the reduced charge altogether. I want to know if a swivelled sign at the start of the bus lane is enough or a valid reason for the PCN to be cancelled if it ends up before an adjudicator?

 

Thank you for replying

[sailor sam]

AFAIK the CCTV must show the contravention so some signage will need to be captured. If you can, I would get out there and take photos of the signage asap. At least you could demonstrate that the signage isn't compliant at present. Personally I am surprised that the council have not accepted your appeal if the signage is 'defective'. At the end of the day, they should know that it has to be present, clear and positioned correctly to be enforceable.

[InnoSaint]

AFAIK the CCTV must show the contravention so some signage will need to be captured. If you can, I would get out there and take photos of the signage asap. At least you could demonstrate that the signage isn't compliant at present. Personally I am surprised that the council have not accepted your appeal if the signage is 'defective'. At the end of the day, they should know that it has to be present, clear and positioned correctly to be enforceable.

 

 

 

Hello again Sailor Sam.

 

I have attached the pictures to the opening post of this thread as attachments. Would these pictures be good enough?

[sailor sam]

Sorry, they are too small to give an opinion. It may help if you give the location so we can check street view. Did you include the fact the sign was facing the wrong way in your appeal?

 

l

[InnoSaint]

Hi Sam, not sure why the website has shrunk the images. My original images that I uploaded were much larger.

 

Ill see if I can upload them again.

 

Street view is outdated and doesnt even show that the bus lane exists (it was in construction lol). But it was on River Road in Barking

 

URL removed due to low post count

 

 

I didnt know at the time of appeal that the sinage was the culprit so I appealed on other bus lane regulations and compassionate grounds, and they were rejected.

[InnoSaint]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]49335[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]49336[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]49337[/ATTACH]

 

They are automatically reduced in size by the website

[green_and_mean]

AFAIK the CCTV must show the contravention so some signage will need to be captured. .

 

The cctv needs to show the vehicle in the bus lane, nothing else.

[liverbird37]

I live by this bus lane, and have to drive past it at least 10 times a day. The way the camera is positioned, the whole of the bus lane and all of the signage will be in clear view. Signage is clear on both sides, including a large camera sign alongside the sign stating which vehicles can use the lane (no cars at any time) I haven't noticed any problems with the sign being turned, (not suggesting it wasn't when you drove past) if it was when you drove by, then please be assured it will be on camera. The camera is set very high up so will have a direct view of the sign at the beginning of the bus lane.

[InnoSaint]

Hi liverbird. I drove past it today and the sign is still swivelled.

 

Enter River Road from the A13 or Movers Lane and its the first sign on approach. I have noticed the sign to be swivelled for at least 8 weeks now.

 

Look forward to hearing your comments tomorrow hopefully.

 

I hope to see the cctv footage soon, hopefully it will be enough to nip this situation in the bud.

[green_and_mean]

the 'offence' is not contravening a traffic sign, its being in a bus lane. Having a sign slightly displaced is not in itself grounds for cancellation unless you can show that was the reason for your error. If for example you drove past other signs the adjudicator may find that the signage in place was adequate, don't forget the road is also marked in addition to the roadside signs.

[InnoSaint]

I wouldn't call 180 degrees 'slightly turned'.

 

If the sign was facing towards approaching traffic I would have noticed it. I took the first left after entering River Road and heavy rain and glare off the road surface made it difficult to read any road marks (if indeed there were any). Also the bus lane surface wasnt red (I know it doesnt have to be, im simply pointing it out from the perspective of something else that would have alerted me of the bus lane, failing the signs and the PCN of course lol).

 

I was in the bus lane. Have I been on the road before? Yes many time. Have I ever driven on the bus lane before? No. Did I gain advantage from being in the bus lane? No, there was no traffic. What was different this time? I didnt notice the sign. Hmm...Were you checking a hot blonde busty woman wearing a low cut top? No, the bus lane sign did not reflect back to me because its black matt posterior was welcoming me.

 

The 'offence' is most likelihood would not have taken place if the council were as quick to rectify and maintain the signs. I have also requested the video evidence from their website over 5 times now. I keep getting a message that it "This web site enables you to view still images and video footage of alleged Parking & Traffic contraventions. To view details of your alleged contravention please enter your PCN number and vehicle registration mark and submit a viewing request. Your request for still images and video footage is now being prepared and should be ready for viewing within 24 hours."

 

But it never materialises. Ive done this 3 days in a row now. Not to mention before my informal appeal.

[liverbird37]

Checked it when driving back onto estate this morning and the "at any time" sign is correct way and clear, but yes, the sign directly above it showing the vehicles allowed into bus lane is turned around to face other way.

[king12345]

Sign turned the wrong way + heavy rain making road markings unreadable = appeal at adjudication won.

We have to follow the letter of the law, so should they!

I would go to adjudication stage and take them down, also for failing to disclose cctv evidence.

You could ask under fia to disclose how many pcn notices have been issued in that spot in the last 12 months and see how much revenue this sign turned the wrong way has generated.

[green_and_mean]

Sign turned the wrong way + heavy rain making road markings unreadable = appeal at adjudication won.

We have to follow the letter of the law, so should they!

I would go to adjudication stage and take them down, also for failing to disclose cctv evidence.

You could ask under fia to disclose how many pcn notices have been issued in that spot in the last 12 months and see how much revenue this sign turned the wrong way has generated.

 

So the sign was turned 12 months ago? On what date did this happen? BTW the Council have no obligation to put the cctv online the person who gets the PCN is entitled to view it at the Council office anything else is just to assist the public.

[sailor sam]

The cctv needs to show the vehicle in the bus lane, nothing else.

 

Point taken but surely if the sign WAS facing the wrong way, the contravention would be flawed especially if it was dark and raining? However, it appears that the OP hasn't appealed on this basis so perhaps he should appeal again (if he still has the opportunity).

[liverbird37]

Just for my own curiosities sake, the "at any time" sign is clearly visible at the start of the bus lane, just under the turned sign (displaying no times, just vehicle pics) would the council have grounds to refuse appeal based on the fact that the "at any time" sign is enough of a warning for the driver not to enter the lane ? Would this sign being on display give the council enough grounds to issue a PCN ? Bus lane markings are there.

[sailor sam]

Just for my own curiosities sake, the "at any time" sign is clearly visible at the start of the bus lane, just under the turned sign (displaying no times, just vehicle pics) would the council have grounds to refuse appeal based on the fact that the "at any time" sign is enough of a warning for the driver not to enter the lane ? Would this sign being on display give the council enough grounds to issue a PCN ? Bus lane markings are there.

 

I would of thought that a sign alone which just shows "at any time" would mean nothing. However, if the sign is yellow with a clearway symbol on it, then that may be a different matter.

[green_and_mean]

Point taken but surely if the sign WAS facing the wrong way, the contravention would be flawed especially if it was dark and raining? However, it appears that the OP hasn't appealed on this basis so perhaps he should appeal again (if he still has the opportunity).

 

He can appeal to the adjudicator on any grounds he likes but there seems little point in trying to convince us about the signage as we are not the ones deciding the outcome. We have seen neither the cctv nor the signage at the time of the contravention so it seems a little pointless arguing over who is right or wrong.

[green_and_mean]

Just for my own curiosities sake, the "at any time" sign is clearly visible at the start of the bus lane, just under the turned sign (displaying no times, just vehicle pics) would the council have grounds to refuse appeal based on the fact that the "at any time" sign is enough of a warning for the driver not to enter the lane ? Would this sign being on display give the council enough grounds to issue a PCN ? Bus lane markings are there.

 

 

As I mentioned before without seeing any evidence its impossible to determine if the signage was adequate on the day of the PCN, even the OP admits he didn't check the signage until weeks after the contravention. It all boils down to the evidence supplied by the Council and the validity of any evidence to the contrary supplied by the OP.

[InnoSaint]

Just an update on the situation.

 

Last week the council finally turned the sign the right way round. Me thinks they have been reading this forum. Hi you sponging xenophyophores

 

Needless to say I didn’t pay off the PCN after they rejected my initial appeal.

 

I had to request the contravention video evidence at least a dozen times and they finally provided it last week. The video is a 10 second clip, from a fixed position (no movement in video) and it does not show any signage, it does not show any road markings and all you can see is glare coming from the road surface, reflected off the headlights of all cars as it was raining. If this is the evidence they produced to me, then am I right to assume that this is all they will be allowed to use in front of an adjudicator (should the matter end up there)? I don’t even think there was a live person recording at the time.

 

Secondly an interesting fact, their letter rejecting my initial appeal is dated 6th Feb, which I received on the 10th. In this they gave me 14 days to make the payment at reduced rate and 28 days in total, after which they said an enforcement notice was due. BUT I have received the enforcement notice on the 1st March. Letter is dated 28th Feb. So the enforcement notice was issued 22 days after their rejection letter and not 28 days or I received the enforcement notice 19 days after receiving their rejection letter. Is this lawful and normal?

 

The enforcement notice appears to be on recycled paper with faint washed out ink. Are times really that hard for the council? They have given grounds for appeal and asked to tick which applies, but none of them do. So im planning on ignoring their little box to write my representations and sending them word processed documents.

 

I am going to be writing my formal representations up soon so any points that may help are welcome.

 

Also anyone know if I can get into trouble for insulting the council (verbal lashing without the use of profanities) in my appeal? So tempted. I think I actually want this to go before an adjudicator as crazy as it sounds

 

Furthermore I have requested under the freedom of information act the statistics of pcns issued on that road between the date of my contravention and the date I last saw the sign was swivelled. Anyone know any channels to go down that may force the council to refund all the pcns that have been paid, should it be found that such enforcement is unlawful?

 

Many thanks.

[king12345]

Ok, you have evidence of the sign being turned against the normal flow of traffic.

This is usually enough to win at adjudication stage.

Also you have their own evidence, the cctv video, clearly highlighting the poor road markings and conveniently avoiding showing a sign related to the bus lane.

Do not insult the council because any correspondence will be produced to the adjudicator.

Also the enforcement notice issued before the 28 days is an act of gross procedural impropriety.

Make sure you ask for a hearing in person where you will be able to explain everything to the adjudicator.

99% of the time councils don't show up at the hearing and their paperwork is very messy.

You should receive a copy of their evidence before the hearing, if you don't even better, a further procedural impropriety.

Look out for statements signed by the same person using different job titles.

I.E. There will be a witness statement from the cctv operator witnessing the offence as it happened.

Also there will be a letter attached to the cctv video you requested signed by a manager of some sort.

A lot of councils don't bother getting the signature from different people, so you could find that a Mr X is a cctv operator in one statement and a parking enforcement manager in another.

The adjudicators are never impressed by this practice.

Finally, as I always advocate, take them to the adjudicator and once you win ask for costs.

There are several reasons for having the costs awarded, but my favourite is "the council acted in a vexatious way" by not allowing the appeal in the first place and failing to provide the cctv evidence at the first request (as you said you had to ask a dozen times).

If you can, blank out the identifying parts from the original pcn and post it here; there may be many more irregularities.

[InnoSaint]

Thank you king, some useful information there that I will incorporate. The cctv footage wasnt signed off by anyone im afraid. I just got an email with a link.

 

I have attached the enforcement notice just incase someone can point out any further anomalies of note. Also as king requested, the original PCN.

 

Im so tempted to give the council a tasteful lashing via the formal representation.

 

Thank you King et al for all your help. Im also considering asking the council for details of the sginage repairs under the FIA

[king12345]

Nothing can be read because of the small pictures.

But the photos seem somehow very dark