Failure to Notify - 15 Years Ago! **Case now closed**

[Bazooka Boo]

It does that UB, which is why there must be a time limit on taking recourse.?

 

Like you say, 'common sense' would suggest and hopefully prevail! But this is most likely another of their 'admin errors'?

 

Like I have said from the start, I would be refusing this 'fine' and telling them that I am not liable, if they wish to pursue this, then I will

gladly see them in court.

[unclebulgaria67]

Bulgaria.

Did, that long ago, DVLA "continue" to send reminders in following years after nothing had happened a year before - and keep doing so for ever? I think not - but cannot remember!

 

In more recent times they would not have done because they would have already started the "Failure to tax/SORN penalty" paperwork well before the next anniversary. But 15 years back?

 

As an aside, are they going to keep sending annual reminders now SORNs do not need to be renewed annually?

 

DVLA send out reminders for tax discs every year and have always done so. The OP's parents where this bike was registered have not received any tax disc reminders, after the OP apparently told DVLA he had sold the bike. So it makes sense that DVLA must have received something to stop sending the reminders.

 

I think what you may be saying, is that back in 97/98, if you did not tax a vehicle or did the SORN, at that time DVLA would not have sent anything else or no annual reminders. I am not sure this is true. If you did not tax a vehicle, DVLA would have written out. I am pretty sure that when I was late one year with getting a tax disc, I received a reminder letter.

[Bazooka Boo]

I say the OP bats it back to DVLA and tell them that they have no legal obligation in this matter as the bike was sold 15 years ago.

See what they come back with, if anything?

They're only after profit, naff all to do with legalities.

[Gick]

Tony P

 

Did, that long ago, DVLA "continue" to send reminders in following years after nothing had happened a year before - and keep doing so for ever? I think not - but cannot remember!

 

In more recent times they would not have done because they would have already started the "Failure to tax/SORN penalty" paperwork well before the next anniversary. But 15 years back?

 

You are correct to query the above. Until the introduction of continuous registration and the need to fill a SORN, there was only one reminder to retax and if the keeper did not wish to use the vehicle, nothing needed to be done, no further correspondence would take place.

 

Unclebulgaria67

 

I meant to comment on your post 37 re the issue of the new V5c which was brought into use in 2011 due to the theft of several thousand old blue fronted V5c's. These are now red fronted and there were some minor changes in the content. They were however only automatically sent when vehicles were taxed or SORNed. It was expected that it would only take twelve months before all of the BLUE issue had been replaced. However, I have fallen through the cracks in that the 6 vehicles that I have in storage were issued with V5c's when I changed my address, but have not had the new RED ones issued.

 

One could not expect the programmers to get it right for the DVLA could one! Why change the habits of a lifetime.

[unclebulgaria67]

Gick

 

I think what you have said is that DVLA reminders only related to the tax disc renewal and therefore if you did not have a tax disc the previous year, they would have sent nothing further. There may have been a presumption therefore that the vehicle not having a tax disc, was not being used on the road. When SORN was introduced in 1998, the vehicle would not have been included, as SORN was only related to those vehicles that were active within the tax disc system at the time. DVLA would not have written to people that had a vehicle registered, but did not appear to have a tax disc.

 

In the OP's case they sold their bike, notified DVLA and then received nothing further. If the bike had an existing tax disc, had the change in ownership not be been actioned, they would have had at least one reminder, which may have triggered them contacting DVLA.

[Gick]

unclebulgaria67

 

Yes that is what I have said on a couple of posts, but perhaps my terminology was too slanted to the legal aspect for others to appreciate.

 

Re the OP's case, he has said in post 42 ' i cant remember if the bike was taxed when I sold it or not (it had been off the road for a while although was working when I sold it - this was before SORN came into effect).'

 

I have underlined the point that is probably causing him the grief. I suspect that the person to whom he sold the machine did not apply to register the change of ownership as they either wanted to use it without taxing, insuring etc.. or planned to restore it and it became a 'barn find'.

 

At risk of labouring the point, his defence rests on the ability to convince DVLA that it is historic sbject to the 6 month limit and so cease action, or a Justice of the Peace Court that there is reasonable doubt. The DVLA need to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the offence has been committed and I would suggest that a Scottish court would accept the testimony of the OP's parents on this score above an 'English' government agency.

[nickitmma]

Thanks for the further comments guys, i have definitely had no tax reminder since i sold the bike and I would have expected one whether the bike was taxed or untaxed when I sold it as if the DVLA have had me as the recorded keeper all this time then they have had a contactable address for me and not used it - this may suggest they did receive the green slip and update their records but somehow this has fell off their system.

 

I do intend to stick to my guns and fight this and just need to find time to write a complaint letter to the DVLA, highlighting the main points of contention as I see them. I do think everything hinges on whether I can convince them I really did sell the bike 15 years ago, i think if they accept this then they will agree there is no point pursuing any further. I have photos of the bike I owned after I moved out which back my argument however i appreciate owning a new bike doesnt mean i had sold the first one. If I cant convince them i sold it when i did, I think it'll boil down to the legalities like the interpretation act which i am aware they have challenged and beaten before. As mentioned before, my father is sure I sold it before I moved and im sure he would be happy to state that in court if required and i can show pictures of the bike i bought after selling the one in question which although inconclusive could help convince DVLA im genuine..

 

It all seems a bit of a lottery but im willing to keep pushing back as I do feel I have a chance to get action dropped, just need to think about what other "proof" I may still have...

 

Cheers guys, will keep posting as things happen

Nick

[nickitmma]

Hi, I just checked out the complaints procedure on the DVLA website and sent a complaint off, i kept it simple and pointed out the facts I feel are relevant without any reference to the interpretation act etc, it says they can take two weeks to reply! That puts me past the date they have requested payment by so hopefully they turn it around quickly (doubt they will as im sure they must be swamped ). I have kept a full copy of the text i filled in on their online form and screenshots etc too - as pointed out before I should keep copies of everything for my own records. If that doesnt change things my next step will be to write to the CEO but at least I can say I have tried following their complaints procedure to resolve this...

 

As and when I hear back ill update the thread!

Nick

[Ibsys]

Thanks for the link Bazooka Boo, unfortunately im in Scotland and that says its only applicable in England and Wales. I wonder if there is a Scottish version - how do you guys know where to find all this stuff, i have no idea where to even begin except to copy and paste things i find on threads like this - I'd love to know what laws and acts etc would be of use to me?

 

Thanks for the reply anyway

Nick

Hi,

 

I had a similar issue with the tax office. The form was submited and I got a penalty (they lost it)

 

Firstly i didn't appeal, I refused to pay and rejected it. Then when the man asked could I prove I sent it? so I replied "can you prove you haven't lost it" and generally asked one question in reply to his questions. They gave in!

 

Anyway, firstly, something posted with the correct address is deemed to have a delivery date so you are absolved and further action.

AND

It is statute barred.

 

Send a conditional offer:

 

CONDITIONAL OFFER; I will pay what I lawfully owe on condition that you will send me proof that you didn't receive the required document. That the records you have do not have errors and/or omissions on them and this needs to be proven. I give you seven days to provide all proofs and all documentary evidence.

 

Failure to provide all documents as required will invalidate your claim and you will forfeit any recourse through the courts and forfeit any further right to restitution in any form. That should you not comply within seven days I shall take it you have dishonored me.

 

Note: he who dishonors, loses!

[nickitmma]

Hi All, just found a reply in my Spam Folder from the DVLA Customer Complaints Resolution team advising the following:

 

I am sorry that you had to write to us about this matter. Having reviewed the details of your case, based on the available information, I have exceptionally closed the enforcement case against you, and you will hear no more about the matter.

 

So common sense won in the end (once I got to someone with some!), thanks to everyone for your help with this - im very grateful for all your time and effort

[Bazooka Boo]

Excellent!! Well done, print that off and keep a hard copy safe.

[traceyb71]

I'm just now having same problem with a camper can sold ten years ago, can you share the template letter you refer to?