old CCJ - CL finance - Debenhams card - now has two DD's running!!

[Poolio]

Several years ago I got a CCJ for a debt.

 

This was before I found out about this forum and enforceable agreements, CCAs etc and

 

I've no doubt if I had gone down the CCA route there wouldn't be an enforceable agreement!

 

That's another matter though but as I couldn't afford to pay the CCJ off in full

I agreed to pay a small monthly payment and set up a direct debit with the Lewis Group.

 

This direct debit has been running for several years

 

however I checked my online banking last week and noticed a new direct debit set up payable to Robinson Way

(The Lewis Group one is still there also).

 

I'd not had any dealings with this company before and certainly never set up a direct debit with them so I cancelled it immediately.

 

I called Robinson Way and established it was for the same CCJ I was paying the Lewis Group for.

They said I would have been notified by the Lewis Group of the transfer.

 

I have not received any communication from the Lewis Group or Robinson Way concerning any transfer of ownership.

 

In any case though am I correct to be annoyed that Robinson Way have set up a direct debit from my bank account

without my knowledge or consent?

 

Is there also a breach of the data protection act?

 

Robinson Way must've been passed my bank account details from the Lewis Group

which I did not give them permission to do,

isn't this a bit improper?

 

For any new direct debit wouldn't I have to sign a new direct debit form/agreement?

I certainly haven't done that with Robinson Way!

[Bazooka Boo]

It appears that Robbersway are part of the lewis group, make a formal complaint to them anyway and exhaust it, but DO NOT ring them EVER!

 

Keep everything in writing.

When was the CCJ awarded?

How much was this for, and for what exactly?

 

Did the DJ state in the CCJ what the amount to be repaid each month was to be, or is this simply a figure they (lewis) plucked out of the thin air and demanded you pay?

[Poolio]

Thanks Bazooka Boo for your response.

 

Don't worry since these CCJs I found these forums and read the advice and never speak to any DCAs on the phone.

Last week though I made an exception as I felt I had to find out what the direct debit was for.

I didn't answer any of their 'Security Questions' though!

 

The CCJ was awarded in 2006

- I got the claim and didn't defend as I was naive in those days.

I just accepted it and proposed a payment of £10 per month.

 

The claimant was CL Finance Limited and the debt was assigned to the claimant by GE Capital (it was a Debenhams card I think). The debt was for £4000.

 

I have checked my files and

I used to receive a yearly statement from CL Finance summarising my payments of £10 per month

and the balance remaining,

 

however in 2011 these stopped coming and I have never received any other correspondance.

I just pay £10 to Lewis Group by direct debit every month.

 

I'm pretty sure I've always paid Lewis Group since the Judgment and they just collected on CL's behalf.

[Stigman]

You need to cancel the Direct Debit and set up a Standing Order.

 

The Direct Debit facility can be amended & abused by a DCA very easily, this has happened before & no doubt will happen again in the future.

 

The CCJ states who to pay & by how much per month, the CCJ does not state by which payment method.

 

Paying by Standing Order gives you the confidence that your money is paid on time (remember to have cleared funds on the day) & that only the amount that you choose (£10 pcm) leaves your account.

 

Stigman

[Bazooka Boo]

Well you need to get back onto them and remind them of their responsibilities, you demand a statement to be sent annually.

[ericsbrother]

Dont forget to rip into your bank for accepting a DD without your authorisation.

[The GodMother]

Make a formal complaint in writiing to your bank aswell and seek compansation

[Poolio]

Thanks for all your advice. I have sent a letter to Robbers Way and also my bank.

 

I've had this problem of fraudulent direct debits with another bank account that I don't really use.

A direct debit went through on my account attempting to take £450!

I didn't have enough money to pay it so was sent a letter saying it had been refused.

 

This alarmed me as I didn't set it up - I called up the bank (NatWest) and repeatedly told them I didn't set it up,

had no knowledge or dealings with the company that did and in my eyes it was fraudulent.

 

They brushed me off and claimed it couldn't be fraudulent as no money was taken which was irrelevant surely

as if the money was in the account it would have!

 

It then got worse despite reporting this direct debit I was then charged a fee a month later, an 'unpaid direct debit' fee.

Called again and finally got the message through to them.

 

Wrote a complaint to them and ended up getting some compensation

but it is alarming how badly the bank dealt with the issue and didn't take it seriously!

[Annie71]

Robinson way and lewis group are both owned by hoist so in effect nothing has changed.

I would agree that SO is safer but if it is a fixed DD you do have the DD guarentee.

 

Fight the battles you can win and that don't stress you out too much. Life is too short.

 

There is anargument , not sure I totally believe it but it goes that if they haven't enforced within 6 years they will struggle to.

[Poolio]

Got a letter re: this matter today from Hoist Portfolio Holding

saying that on 13/12/13 Hoist acquired all the rights, obligations and benefits associated with the account from CL finance.

 

There's also a letter from Robinson Way concerning the Direct Debit saying that as of 27/1/14 Robinson Way

will collect the Direct Debit instead of Lewis Group.

There is no need to complete a new Direct Debit instruction as details have been supplied to the bank.

There's also a new reference number for the direct debit.

 

It still seems untoward that they can contact a bank and change details of a direct debit

- the company name and reference no. without my authority.

 

I don't believe they did it like this though as the Direct Debit I cancelled was a new one that had been set up, not a change to an existing one.

[Bazooka Boo]

OK Cl finance again are part of the Lewis group, which was bought by Hoist, nice incestuous little relationship they all have hey!

 

Have you cancelled the DD?

And informed your bank that under no circumstances are they to ever allow any money to be withdrawn from your account, or DD set up without your express permission.

[Annie71]

I know its difficult because its debt related but when a company changes hands the DD often does to. It did with my isp.

 

The obvious question is are you paying a legally owed debt . If you were to miss some payments what may be the consequences,

[The GodMother]

Annie

It does not matter if the debt is legally owned or not what matter is they have added a DD to the bank account without the written permission of the OP.

[Poolio]

Have you cancelled the DD?

And informed your bank that under no circumstances are they to ever allow any money to be withdrawn from your account, or DD set up without your express permission.

 

Done

[Annie71]

I said legally owed not owned.

I was trying to get to the bottom of whst could be the consequences of a missed payment.

 

As far as I am aware when a firm needs to change reference numbers or details on a DD they can and do set up a new one which is legit. If the OP has an issue then invoke the DD guarentee.

 

Would you be making a song and dance about it if it was your insurance company that added a different DD for the same amount but stopped using the old one.

 

It is a matter of putting your energy to best use. The only thing that has happened here is to increase the stress level of the op

[Bazooka Boo]

Well done poolio, if needs be simply set up a standing order which is something YOU control, not them.

 

Annie, the thing with DD's is that they are set up so as to deliberately take control of your bank, the DD Guarantee is pretty useless if they empty it, and you then incur fees and charges upon fees and charges, the best way is to use a SO.

[Annie71]

Please don't misunderstand.

I think S/O is by far the best way to go. What I was trying to point out is try and make the transition seemless to give the DCA no excuse for saying you broke the repayment plan and in reality the change of DD is perfectly permissable . It is still the same entity. Out of the battles that need to be fought this really is somewhere at the bottom.

Prioritise

Urgency

Effort

Return

 

so in complaining about this there is little urgency , no return or benefit and potentially some effort

[Poolio]

Annie this matter hasn't been very time consuming and I am now not stressed out about it at all.

 

You say it is the 'same entity'.

I have only discovered this after posting on this forum and researching on the internet.

 

This same entity has obviously set-up separate companies for its own benefit be it tax advantages, asset protection or other reasons.

Just because it is the same entity is no excuse for its behaviour

- 2 separate companies have been set up by this 'entity' and any transfers must follow procedures and the law.

 

If for example I was paying 1st Credit a direct debit and the account was sold to Lowells then a new direct debit would need to be set up,

it would be inappropriate for 1st Credit to hand over my bank details to Lowells and for them to then set up a new direct debit without my authority.

CL Finance and Hoist, Lewis Group and Robinson Way are registered as separate companies too so the same applies.

 

My direct debit was to the Lewis Group, Robinson Way didn't alter this one as they claim; they set up an entirely new one.

This means my details have been replicated without my consent and the bank is at fault too for accepting a new direct debit without my authority.

 

Even if it were just a case of business etiquette I should have been informed formally of any change in ownership

and/or payment BEFORE a direct debit was set up without my permission and not afterwards.

[Poolio]

An update to this thread:

I wrote a complaint to Robinson Way about this and asked for compensation,

I got a shoddy response that contained many errors and didn't take my complaint seriously.

 

I then sent them a follow-up and received a response from the compliance department saying the matter would be dealt with

and I would get a response in the near future.

 

Yesterday I received a letter from Robinson saying my complaint was upheld

and admitting some mistakes were made on their part and also said I would receive £50 in compensation.

 

I am pretty pleased with this but also suspicious in a way.

 

At least in my personal dealings with DCAs they don't hand out compensation easily normally

and when a company does so their first offer is usually not their best offer.

 

It seems weird that initially they brushed me off but with one follow up letter they seem to have caved in and admitted some wrongdoing.

 

It just seems like they have something to hide and don't want me to escalate the matter externally which is what I said I would do in my letter to them.

 

Maybe I am reading too much into things but what should I do?

 

Should I follow this up further or just leave it as it is and accept their explantion and compensation offer?

[Bazooka Boo]

IMO I would leave it now, don't hold your breath for the money mind!

[dx100uk]

if there was a duplicate DD, then I hope it went off the CCJ debt?

 

have you checked?

 

and have you totalled up you payments in total

and what is left to pay of the CCJ judgement figure is left to pay?

 

don't forget a DCA nor ANYONE

can add ANYTHING to a CCJ judgement figure

unless it clearly states so in the judgement box

 

dx

[Poolio]

Hi dx100,

 

I cancelled the direct debits created by Robinson Way shortly after they were created and before any payments were taken.

 

Now I pay them manually using online banking at the end of every month.

 

I have totalled up everything and nothing has been added and all payments have been applied.

 

On both CCJ debts I am paying £10 per month.

 

The first debt has £370 outstanding but the second £2930 so I'll be paying that for a long time to come!

[dx100uk]

ok.

 

theres nowt to stop you sending an SAR to the original creditors

 

see what can be reclaimed.

as long as you are only paying the claimant on the CCJ's

then good too

 

dx

[Poolio]

Well technically I'm not paying the claimant on these CCJs.

 

It was CL Finance who originally made the claims and is the claimant.

CL have now sold the accounts to Hoist and Robinson Way collect on behalf of Hoist.

 

I received the claims over 6 years ago,

long before I discovered these forums and knew about CCAs and SARs

so I just didn't bother defending them and admitted liability.

 

It's annoying really though as if I had known what I did now I would definitely have CCAd both debts and not just admitted owing the money.

 

I'm not even sure what the debts actually relate to,

I think one is an old Debenhams card but that's only my hunch!

 

At the time of the claim I think I knew what they were for

 

Thanks for the advice,

I guess it wouldn't do any harm for me to probe these further

and at least establish what I am paying the CCJs for!

[dx100uk]

CL finance are hoist so you are paying the claimant.

 

dx