Can I sue Lloyds in small claims court without going to ombudsman?

[theminor]

I will try and be succinct, promise! Please ignore issue of eligibility for repayment/compensation, as Lloyds have already accepted this.

 

I initially contacted Lloyds in October '13 asking if I'd had PPI as I simply couldn't remember. That's my bad, I know, but I'm not good now with long term memory. They acknowledged receipt and said they'd look into it and I heard from them on the phone once when they called and asked lots of questions about what my credit card was for, etc. At the end of November with an offer of £630. They said that due to passage of time they no longer had detailed records, but that their offer was "equal to the average compensatory payment taking into account the period during which you held the credit card and were paying for your PPI cover". It did NOT say how long that period was, so I couldn't work out what the offer represented per month. The letter included examples of how refund calculations worked, but none of the examples were of any use to my circumstance because they all dealt with known figures of payment.

 

Their letter had a phone number, which turned out to be a call centre in the Philippines. I called and said that if only they'd told me they didn't have any records, I could have given them some help with that, so could I please speak to the department that had made my offer. The call centre said they could not put me through as that department had no incoming phone lines (yeah, right) but that they could 'escalate' my claim. Escalation apparently involves them writing notes on my file that I'd called, which the department who calculated offers could read, and who'd then consider what I'd said. It didn't seem very sensible to filter all communications via a third party, especially one who's first language wasn't English, so I asked how else I might communicate directly with the relevant department, but was told this was the only route available.

 

I asked when I had started paying PPI. They didn't know, because the only information they had access to was the letter that had been written to me, and that didn't have that information in it. Well obviously not, otherwise I wouldn't have needed to ask, would I? I asked how many months I had been paying PPI, and again they didn't know, but they would 'escalate' it for me. I asked if escalation would mean that whoever was reading the notes would call me so I could ask them my questions, but the call centre said they did not know whether anyone would call me back. Frustrated, I asked them what questions they COULD answer, but the irony went over their heads. They could do no more than confirm what had been written to me, and take note of whatever I said and put that on my record where someone else might read it at some other time.

 

I said that I could not possibly be in a position to decide whether the offer was fair if I could not get certain information about it, so I really did need to speak to the department that they appeared to be a firewall for. I asked for an email address for the right department, and after much argument was given one. I sent a detailed letter explaining the questions I had, including the ones I'd asked above, and also asked how the 'average' had been calculated. There's another hole in my memory here – at some point before I wrote to them I got the information that I had paid PPI from May 2002 to March 2005, but I can't remember now them giving that to me. They had initially said they couldn't get that info, but somehow or other I have those dates now on a scrappad. By some miracle, I found a statement from March 2005, which showed a payment that month of £47 PPI against a balance of approx. £6,100. I said that I did not remember this period, but that I did know that I couldn't possibly have cleared such a large balance quickly and it would take many months to clear down such a large balance, so it was reasonable to believe that I'd be paying that off for a considerable period and on each payment making further PPI payments too. The statement showed the previous months balance as being in line with that month, so I was able to work out that months PPI payment too. I said that I would expect, but had no genuine knowledge one way or the other, that it would have taken me quite some time to build up an outstanding balance of just a few pounds under the credit limit which was shown at £6,250, so again it was reasonable to assume that I'd been making PPI payments on cumulative balances leading up to the month for the statement I had.

 

With the two known figures for PPI, March which was shown and February's that I calculated from the carried over outstanding balance, I got an average of £40 per month paid. If I were to assume that this was a representative figure over the lifetime of the PPI contributions, that would equate to £1400 paid. That's without the interest at 8% as Lloyds said, purely because I don't know how to work that out cumulatively and until when. I know its a huge assumption to say that the payment I did know is representative, but at least its a figure from MY account rather than an average of other peoples which is how Lloyds want to work out my offer. Finally I asked that someone from that department actually call me on the phone, so that we could resolve any questions between us easily, and complained that Lloyds were effectively preventing me from speaking to them which I found to be inequitable given that they regularly insist on me providing methods of them communicating with me.

 

I emailed that off to them, and promptly got it straight back – the server at Lloyds had bounced the email because the address didn't exist. Somewhat annoyed, I called the Philippines again and complained that the address they'd provided didn't work and insisted that I speak to someone in the claims management department in England, but they still refused to give me anything other than an 'escalation' note on my file. I sent the letter to the PO box address instead, and three weeks later got a letter from them. With baited breath I opened it, and discovered it was nothing but an acknowledgement that I'd written to them.

 

I did phone the Philippines several more times over coming weeks, asking when something would happen. They replied that they didn't know, but that they'd 'escalate' my question, and someone may or may not phone me but that it would certainly be considered. Each time I called I had to go through the routine of confirming a number they could reach me on, despite them not ringing me on it. I went in to my branch and threw a paddy there that all I was asking was the courtesy of a return phone call, and after an unpleasant hour they came back and said they didn't know how to get someone to talk to me either but that there was no point in visiting the branch again.

 

This Friday I had my regular frustrating call to the Philippines and got a different answer – I had been written back to, and the following day the letter duly arrived. It contained an offer, of £8. This time though, it said that a breakdown of the offer was made according to my cards. On one of the four cards I'd had with Lloyds, my card balance at 14 March 2011 was apparently zero. What relevance the 14 March date had wasn't mentioned. It did say that, if I'd not purchased PPI, my balance on that day on that card would be -£449.16. It did not say how it would be that amount, just that it would be that figure. An 8% interest calculation of £188.57 was added to 28 February 2014. The total of those figures wasn't shown, but it adds up to £637.73, leaving, according to them, £8.78 owing which they'd pay into my account. No mention was made of any of the issues I raised in my letter, or of the statement of the period that I'd provided. No mention was made of how they'd managed to find my actual payment details now, when they hadn't managed this when they made their original offer. No mention was made of the remaining three credit cards.

 

In short, it is my firm belief that Lloyds are lying to me. Their statement about £449.16 being paid in premiums cannot be true, given that it equates to less than ten months premiums equivalent to the one month we do know, and my knowledge that such a sum would have taken a long time to both build up and be repaid. Dividing their offer (before interest) up over the 35 months they say I paid PPI comes to £12.77 per month and I believe I paid a lot more than this. I'm also very suspicious that Lloyds now appear to have found my records, but don't include them in their letter. I don't believe they HAVE found them.

 

So, what to do now. I can ring the Philippines, where they'll happily 'escalate' my argument. That escalation doesn't mean in and of itself that someone will ever contact me, and I could happily wait from now until the end of time for a response which may not come. I could go into my branch again, but they happily admit they have no knowledge of how to reach the relevant people. I could write to them at the PO box address, but since they ignored entirely the content of my previous letter I'm not exactly hopeful of a positive outcome on a second try. I could complain to the Ombudsman, which has the satisfaction of knowing that there is a cost to Lloyds for the service, but I don't know exactly what I'm asking for. It is entirely possible that in a single conversation on the phone with Lloyds they could reassure me that their figures are correct, fair, and most importantly demonstrable, but they steadfastly refuse to do this. I won't go into here why they upheld my complaint but it is fair to say that they acknowledge misselling it to me, so why is it that I can't be afforded the simple courtesy of a phone call. I'll even pay for it, if they'd give me a number to reach. If, as a result of that call, we agree that Lloyds have got it right, the matter is closed, and if we agree that they've got it wrong, we can work out to what number and pay it to me.

 

Since I can't ask the Ombudsman to force Lloyds to ring me, I don't really think that's what I'm looking for. I think I've been shabbily treated by an organisation that has admitted they took money from me that they shouldn't have done, and what I'd really like to do is sue them in the small claims court. I'd like to sue for £1400 as the figure I believe I have paid, the interest to date on that, an amount of hours at the allowable rate to compile the case, and exemplary damages for the avoidable inconvenience and stress Lloyds have put me to in not working together to resolve the issue without recourse to external parties.

 

What I'm looking for here is constructive criticism on the above. We can leave aside the argument of eligibility since that's previously resolved, but am I being stupid/ungrateful/stubborn in not just taking the offer, or is it fair that I should have some faith in its integrity? My sincere and genuine thanks to anyone having read this far!

Edited February 9, 2014 by theminor
Formatting issues

[Hortz]

No, you're entitled to want to know if the figures are correct (though the way I read your comments you weren't actually complaining to start with and they took your comments as a complaint in error). But get any thoughts of suing them out of your head. You've no cause to take them to court and will just end up losing yourself money.

[dx100uk]

god that was a post...

 

have you ever sent them an SAR ?

 

we can give you all the numbers you want

 

but you really need to keep things in writing

 

its no good eventually poss having to go to the FOS

or court route when all you've got is phone call dates.

 

dx

[theminor]

No, you're entitled to want to know if the figures are correct (though the way I read your comments you weren't actually complaining to start with and they took your comments as a complaint in error). But get any thoughts of suing them out of your head. You've no cause to take them to court and will just end up losing yourself money.

Yes, I just want to know the numbers are right, but how do I get them to reveal it? They just refuse to answer orally, and in written form they simply ignore the question! I don't think I've got anything to lose at court, its not a vexatious case as its reasonable for me to ask that their figures are right. and even in the event they win and get costs against me I don't have any income to pay from so they can have a pound a week willingly!

 

god that was a post...

 

have you ever sent them an SAR ?

 

we can give you all the numbers you want

 

but you really need to keep things in writing

 

its no good eventually poss having to go to the FOS

or court route when all you've got is phone call dates.

 

dx

No, I've never sent them a SAR as I thought they'd simply reply 'we don't have any info going back that far' or only pick out selected bits of info that supported their position and hide the rest. Is it a bit late in the day to ask them for it now though?

[ims21]

This offer that came through - I guess it was in writing?

 

I would SAR them. That will get you all of the data they hold on you. Don't restrict the SAR just to PPI stuff.

 

I wouldn't be thinking of court action to get them to reveal the PPI figures, fos can force them to give that information.

[theminor]

Yes, the offer was in writing. Okay I'll start with a SAR and see what that drags up! Should I address it to the PO box address for Lloyds PPI, or to another address? My local branch?

[ims21]

I always favour SAR going to the Registered Office and send by some trackable method so you can check when they received it.

[dx100uk]

Registered Office:

 

25 Gresham Street,

 

London EC2V 7HN

[Hortz]

Yes, I just want to know the numbers are right, but how do I get them to reveal it? They just refuse to answer orally, and in written form they simply ignore the question! I don't think I've got anything to lose at court, its not a vexatious case as its reasonable for me to ask that their figures are right. and even in the event they win and get costs against me I don't have any income to pay from so they can have a pound a week.

 

 

I hate to tell you this but the courts will view it as frivolous. Mainly because there doesn't seem to have been any law broken (annoying people by refusing to send calculations doesn't count).

 

As has been suggested above I suggest you take it up with FO if you're not getting anything from Lloyds.

[brown1950]

See the following thread and you will then understand taking any PPI court action could hurt your wallet.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?368967-Barclaycard-PPI-but-account-been-in-dispute-for-4.5-years

[mightymouse_69]

Don't forget that you only have 6 months from the date of their offer/response to get your complaint to the Ombudsman. So, if you do want their assistance, remember to keep an eye on the calender.

 

Remember: On a credit card, the 8% isn't added to the amounts paid in PPI. The business reconstructs your account to show the balances of your card had you never had PPI. 8% is only added to any periords where your account would have been in credit (had you not had PPI).

[Andybars]

Given the high chance that Lloyds will fail to provide the necessary information in the SAR, my own recommendation would be to get this case to the Ombudsman as soon as possible and then it is at least making its way towards the front of the enormous queue. Make clear when you complain that you agree the decision of Lloyds that the policy was mis-sold but believe the redress to be wrong.

 

In the unlikely event that Lloyds send you full calculations which prove to be correct you can always withdraw your complaint from the Ombudsman