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Hi all,

 

As you may have guessed I have come looking for help and advice. I was parking over the space of a couple of weeks in a parking eye controlled car park in Leeds while visiting a client located by it.

 

The first time I went (16th Jan), I was there for two hours, but encountered issues with the paybyphone process - being they had the wrong card details and wrong registration number registered for me. By the time I got it sorted, I was hit with a parking fee of £8.70 for parking overnight!!! Instead of two hours of parking which I wanted. This is despite their signage saying that you can park anytime during your stay.

 

Oh well I thought - lesson learnt.

 

Today I have received a Parking Charge Notice for the 30th January where I overstayed there by 35 minutes. I an only assume I must have made a mistake using the App. I parked at 9.31am and I knew that I would not be leaving until lunchtime but looking back on the email receipts I only paid for two hours! (should have worn my glasses when using it)

 

So now they have sent the attached letter to me £60 in 14 days or £100 after that.

 

So it is OK for them to Overcharge me but not for me to make a mistake.

 

They know it was me due to using my card to pay, although in the letter they do not acknowledge that I have paid for parking and overstayed and indeed does not differentiate between non-payment and underpayment - equally guilty in their eyes.

 

I feel like just writing them a cheque for £5 to cover their losses for the underpayment, having to get my details and admin which is a process that they will have finely tuned to reduce costs, and that I consider it full and final etc..

 

Also, as it is a charge/Invoice - they are not listing their VAT details on the letter!!!

 

However, I look to people that have far more knowledge in this area

 

Many Thanks

[ATTACH=CONFIG]49116[/ATTACH]

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Hello there.

 

I can't read your jpeg, I'm afraid. If I increase the size of the image, it goes blurry. You will do much better if you can resave your image as a pdf file, jpegs rarely work on the forum.

 

If you don't know how to deal with pdf's, please let us know.

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Ok, who owns the land for starters. PE probably dont have the right to claim damages in their own name and a judge recently said they have as much right to fine you as an estate agen has the righ to fine someone renting a property through them- ie none as any loss is the landlord's.

You could write back and point out that you were overcharged the previous time and you didint bother sending them an invoice for their breach of contract so you dont expect them to do the same.

You could also add that their charge is obviously a penalty as it doesnt include a VAT number on the invoice and a company making £15 million a year is obviously VAT registered.

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[ATTACH=CONFIG]49124[/ATTACH]

 

Hi, I hope that this is better for people to read - sorry about the earlier quality

 

I also find their heading - Parking Charge Notice - to be a bit close to the mark of Penalty Charge Notice!!

 

Many thanks

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They had 14 days from when they got your number plate to when it arrives at your house. So they are within yhe time limit.... So far

They now have between 29- 56 days to send the notice to keeper (NTK). they might time them out on that section.

When you send a letter of appeal they will reject it...... But they have to issue a POPLA code, wihch costs them £29

When you get the POPLA code come back and defence will be formed.

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How does this letter sound - really want this over with - there is the heading of Without Prejudice

 

To whom it may concern,

Yr Ref: xxxxxxxxxx “Parking Charge Notice”

 

It is with great dismay that I received your letter dated 05/02/2014 in relation to parking in Aire Street, Leeds.

 

I would like to bring to your attention an incident where you were in breach of the alleged contract. I parked in this same location but due to my card expiring, and a different registration I was unable to pay straight away using the pay by phone number, however I paid for two hours of parking at this site prior to leaving the car park using the pay by phone number after having ensured that my details were correct on the system which took some time to do. I was surprised to see that I was actually charged £8.70 which was including a fee for overnight parking - something that I did not do. This can be confirmed if you bother to look through your ANPR logs. This is in contrary to your “pay anytime during your stay” or is there an hidden addendum to this – “and we will overcharge you where we can!”

 

Anyway, onto your Parking Charge Notice. On this day, I was aware that I would be needing to park at this location until lunchtime (3 hours). I can only assume that I made an error using the paybyphone app on my phone as I had parked at the Aire street location on several occasions before with no such incident.

 

I will list my points in Bullets below where I find your actions and letter somewhat lacking.

 

1. As this is clearly an invoice and not a fine (something that you are not allowed to issue!), you are breaking the law by not including a VAT registration number.

2. The use of the heading “Parking Charge Notice” is very close to “Penalty Charge Notice” (see 1 above)

3. The charge for overstaying is punitive and does not comply in any way to any losses that the land owner may have suffered, which is all that would allowed to be claimed in a court of law, as was found in Parking Eye v Smith 2011

4. Your charges do not differentiate between non-payers and customers who have overstayed by a small amount

5. You have not stated who the owner of the land is, and provided proof by means of a contract between yourselves and the land owner that you have the right to issue these charge notices in your name

 

With these points in mind, I am prepared to reimburse the land owner and yourselves for any losses to a sum of £10. This consists of a cheque for £5 that I have included with this letter, and the overpayment that you took from me via paybyphone on the 16th January 2014. We will consider any further actions and /or correspondence from yourself attempting to pursue this matter as harassment (Henderson v British Gas) and we will take legal advuce on how to make you desist from your actions and indeed may then instruct.

 

Yours

 

 

any fine tuning needed?

 

Cheers

 

Lawrenso

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I like your style lawrenso, might be worth a shot. See what the legal trained CAGGERS say.

Got to be worth the stamp though surely

 

You could add at the end of Para 1.

You will note I did not send you an "invoice" for breach of contract.......

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You can send that and you will get a refusal of appeal and about 40 pages of rubbish telling you why their barrister thinks the sun shines down upon them. As long as it has the all-important POPLA reference code all is well. If they dont give you that code then another letter to them copied to the BPA should be sent pointing out they are in breach of the code they signed up to.

Come back here when you get that letter and in the meanwhile tell us of any other paperwork they send out as they have a habit of trying to harass or coerce you into paying up or not going down the POPLA route. Again, a complaint should be in the offing and let them know that if they continue to send harassing letters you will be taking action against them.

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Well,

 

received their response to my letter today - totally ignoring everything and returning cheque - see the attached PDF (I have learnt this time :-) )

 

so do I take it that they have breached the BPA requlations?

 

What now?[ATTACH=CONFIG]49437[/ATTACH]

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

Update - Wife has realised she sent it to the payments address,

 

I am now forwarding onto the appeals department with the addition of

 

Please find attached a letter that I have previously sent to your payments department.

Please take this letter to be an appeal against your speculative “invoice”. However as described in the attached letter, I include the original cheque for £5 plus the payment that you fraudulently took from me on the 16th January 2014 and may I remind your organisation that on any legal action you take you have to take all possible actions to reduce costs where possible, and indeed, rejecting this payment may well prejudice in any such action you may take.

I await your response in the form of acceptance or rejection. If the latter, please include a POPLA reference number as is your remit as a member of the BPA

Yours

 

however I will leave it a day while awaiting any feedback from forum experts (with thanks in advance)

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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I doesn't matter what you write .... They will reject it, but they have to issue a POPLA code.. Cost to them £29.00 odd.

 

What you have above is good. See what others say

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Just re-read very carefully any replies that you have received from ParkingEye to double check that you have not overlooked the inclusion of a ten digit POPLA code.

 

Because if you have then the 28 days in which to appeal to POPLA started from the issue of that code and by continuing to correspond with ParkingEye you are therefore a) wasting your breath and b) wasting away the 28 day window.

 

Just to clarify one other small point any old appeal does not give you an automatic right to a POPLA code; if the appeal is not actually an appeal (and the BPA Ltd can and will adjudicate on that issue) then you can easily lose your 28 days in which to appeal - so belt and braces, avoid sarcasm and trying to be witty and always put in a genuine appeal or challenge (such as the template on the Parking Cowboys website)

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I stand corrected ..Sorry

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I stand corrected ..Sorry

 

No need to apologise, we all have to learn somewhere and it is good that those who are more knowledgeable offer constructive advice which we can learn from.


Please consider making a small donation to help keep this site running

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

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Hello again,

 

well it appears that despite their last letter which was uploaded above, they did indeed forward it onto the PE appeals!!

 

I have received two letters while I have been away, one with the POPLA reference number but also giving me another 14 days to pay the reduced rate, and another stating how marvelous they have been in court which I have also attached here.

 

So - what now in regards to POPLA.

 

As it is an overstay - I believe they can only prove a loss of £1.50 plus admin fees/DVLA fees (which wasn't needed as they have my details on file as I use the paybyphone app and have also used the telephone number where they recognize the number and have all the details to hand!)

 

Cheers

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]49530[/ATTACH]

 

Also, sorry about not responding sooner, I travel a lot with my work and hadn't seen any notifications in my email.

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Hi lawrenso, Did they return the cheque you sent?

What date is on the letter with the POPLA no.?

 

"Another chance to pay ":!: Lucky old you.

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Hi F16

 

They returned the cheque in the letter earlier this week. The date of the POPLA is 25th Febuary.

 

Yep, lucky me :-D

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lawrenso, You have 28 days from that date to get an appeal back to POPLA . So roughly 23 days left, which is plenty of time for other members to form your defence.

Well at least you could use the returned cheque to start a fire.

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This is a generic POPLA appeal that has been successfully used for PE cases at POPLA on a number of occasions, you could do no worse that adapting it to cover your own circumstances - don't try and be too clever and start mucking about with it, this was produced by the combined efforts of some extremely knowledgeable people and it works. There's an old American adage, "if it ain't broke then don't try and fix it"

 

You can email it to POPLA (don't bother filling in their forms, just your version of the below as an attachment)

 

You need to compose a new email as follows:-

 

In the address box put appeals.admin@popla.org.uk

 

In the subject box put:- POPLA APPEAL REF: put the 10 digit POLA code here

 

Attach the POPLA appeal document

 

......then put the following text in the body of the email:-

 

Dear Sir

 

Please find attached an appeal in the case of your name versus ParkingEye

 

Please acknowledge and confirm receipt via email.

 

Regards

 

Your name

 

(Give them seven days to acknowledge receipt before sending them daily chase ups (via email) for receipt confirmation)

 

In the matter of an Appeal against a Parking Charge Notice to POPLA

Your name

Your address

(Appellant)

And

Parking Eye Limited (Co Reg No:- 5134454)

40 Eaton Avenue, Buckshaw Village, Chorley PR7 7NA

(Respondent)

 

 

1.0 Relevant Documents

 

1.1 Notice to Keeper served by Parking Eye on the registered keeper (not attached)

 

1.2 A challenge to Parking Eye against the parking charge (not attached)

 

1.3 Letter from Parking Eye rejecting my appeal (not attached)

 

1.4 BPA Ltd Code of Practice (not attached)

 

1.5 All of the documents 1.1 – 1.3 (inclusive) are required to be produced by the Respondent to both POPLA and the Appellant in response to this appeal; if they are not submitted in evidence then the appeal should be allowed.

 

2.0 Alleged Infringement

 

2.1 The Respondent alleges that, on Date , the driver of a vehicle registration number Reg Number, of which I am the Registered Keeper, was parked at the car park at the xxxxxx Car Park, xxxxxxxxxx in breach of the terms and conditions and as such a Parking Charge of £100 is due.

 

3.0 The signage at the xxxxxxxxxx Car Park, xxxxxxxxxxx is as follows;-

 

[Picture of the signage here showing the terms and conditions]

 

3.1 The signage states that ‘Failure to comply with this will result in a Parking Charge of: £100’. As the parking charge will result from a ‘failure to comply’ then this wording clearly indicates that the parking charge represents damages for a breach of the parking contract. Accordingly, the parking charge must be a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

 

3.2 The Respondent claims that its charges are in line with the BPA Ltd Code of Practice. Whilst the BPA Ltd CoP states that operator must justify in advance any parking charge over £100, it does not automatically follow that that any charge which is £100 or under is justified.

 

3.3 The Respondent also claims that its charges have been held to be enforceable in other cases but has failed to produce any reasonable evidence to justify this particular parking charge. Losses caused by breaches of a parking contract may vary depending on the nature of the breach and the car park. The fact that a parking charge at a certain level is held not to be a penalty in one car park does not mean that the same sum is a pre-estimate of loss caused in every car park.

 

3.4 The Respondent further claims that the charge is justified commercially and so need not in any case be a genuine pre-estimate of loss. However the Respondent’s submissions include costs which in reality amount to the general business costs incurred for the provision of their car park management services which cannot be commercially justified. The whole business model of the Respondent in respect of a particular car park operation cannot of itself amount to commercial justification.

 

3.5 It is my assertion that the £100 parking charge is punitive and an unenforceable penalty and the Respondent has not provided any evidence as to how and why this parking charge is a genuine pre-estimate of loss. It is not sufficient to simply list the names of previous cases without applying them to this case.

 

4.0 No breach of the advertised terms and conditions

 

4.1 The signage upon which the Respondent wishes to rely fails to meet the standard required by Regulation 7 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and as such it cannot be relied upon to demand a Parking Charge. I would invite POPLA to read the sign and consider just what infringement actually causes a “Parking Charge” liability to arise?

 

4.2 The sign states the following: ‘2 hours max stay’ followed by ‘Customer only car park – for use only when shopping in store’ the sign then lists varying times over the seven day week and under those days and times is the instruction ‘No parking allowed outside these times’ At this point the signage then indicates the following contractual consequence as follows “Failure to comply with this will result in a parking charge of £100” – what therefore is the ‘with this’ referring to?

 

4.3 The actual ‘with this’ wording on the Respondents sign clearly suggests that the parking charge will be issued solely for ‘parking outside these times’. If the Respondent wishes to rely on any other acts to impose a Parking Charge then the sign should say “Failure to comply with any of the terms and conditions will result in a parking charge of: £100”

 

4.4 POPLA will be aware that if there is any doubt as to the written terms of a contract then their interpretation will be one that is “most favourable to the consumer” under those Regulations. On that basis, even if the motorist had left the site; or the vehicle had been parked for more than two hours; or not parked in a marked bay; or parked in a disabled bay without displaying a Blue Badge; then no liability arises.

 

4.5 Accordingly, I would request that this appeal is supported.

 

5.0 Entering, Parking and Exiting.

 

5.1 The Respondent uses ANPR camera’s at the entrance/exit of the car park. The cameras only record the time that a vehicle enters the car park and when it leaves, they do not record the actual parking event or the point at which the contract to park is entered into. There are six separate actions involved here that relate to the parking event.

 

5.1.1 Driving into the car park. (Entry time recorded on ANPR).

 

5.1.2 Parking the car in an empty parking space.

 

5.1.3 Reading the terms and conditions of parking offered at the retail park.

 

5.1.4 Acceptance of those terms and conditions by remaining at the car park.

 

5.1.5 Driving out of the parking space.

 

5.1.6 Driving out of the car park. (Exit time recorded on ANPR).

 

5.2 The times of the actual ‘parking under contract’ event therefore differ significantly from the entry and exit times recorded by the Respondent’s ANPR cameras. Furthermore, the Respondent’s ANPR system takes no account of the regular problems in effecting a speedy departure due to the road layout and exit. There are often tail backs and it is not uncommon for a motorist to wait some considerable time to leave, during which time, when no longer parked under contract but waiting to get out time soon ticks away until one is at the front of the queue and the ANPR camera captures the exiting image.

 

5.3 The BPA Ltd Code of Practice requires that parking operators can only rely on ANPR evidence if it does so in a reasonable, consistent and transparent manner. Thus the Respondent has to recognise that it takes time to get in, find a space, consider the terms and conditions and then eventually to leave.

 

5.4 The Respondent’s claim for an £100 parking charge for an alleged overstay based solely of the entry and exit times recorded by the Respondent’s ANPR cameras is therefore fatally flawed and cannot be relied upon, on a balance of probabilities, to prove its case.

 

6.0 No contractual authority

 

6.1 The Respondent has not provided me with any evidence that it is lawfully entitled to demand money from the driver. That is to say, that it has the necessary legal capacity to enter into a contract with a driver of a vehicle parking in the car park, it is the properly appointed agent of the landowner or has been properly authorised by the landowner to recover unpaid parking charges from a driver.

 

6.2 The Respondent Parking Eye should be required to provide a copy (to both POPLA and myself) of................

 

6.2.1 Its contract with the owner of the land on which the car park is situated

 

6.2.2 Evidence of the land ownership of the party with whom the Respondent has contracted

 

6.2.3 A “Purchase Order” incorporating this car park into that contract in the event that that contract is a framework agreement within, say, the next fourteen days. In the alternative, if the Respondent is the owner of the land then it should evidence that ownership within the same time period. If the Respondent is unable or unwilling to do so, then it should not be permitted to offer any evidence in this appeal.

 

6.3 The Appellant reserves the right to provide further representations in this appeal upon considering the evidence that has been requested. It is submitted that without such evidence the Appellants’ position is prejudiced by being unable to properly challenge the Respondents’ position. POPLA is operated by the London Councils under a contract it has with the BPA.

 

6.4 As such it will be governed by the Human Rights Act, and in particular Article 6. That article requires that an Appellant must have a real opportunity to present his or her case or challenge the case against them. This will require access to a Respondents’ submissions, procedural equality and generally requires access to evidence relied on by the other party.

 

7.0 The Appeal

 

7.1 The parking charge of £100 is punitive. It does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of liquidated damages and is therefore an unlawful penalty charge

 

7.2 The Respondent has produced insufficient evidence that my car was parked in breach of the stated terms and conditions and which is denied in any event.

 

7.3 The Respondent does not have the necessary contractual authority from the landowner to pursue this parking charge.

 

8.0 I respectfully request that this appeal be allowed

 

8.1 In the event that POPLA is minded not to grant the appeal then, because the Respondent failed to provide any evidence of its entitlement to recover parking charges until this stage, it is requested that it be ordered that the Respondent be not allowed to recover any more than the originally claimed sum of £100

 

Your name

 

Dated xxxxxxxxxxx 2014

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Hi Nev Met.

 

I am doing my POPLA appeal at the moment, thank you very much for the above, however, I am having some issue around point 4 which relates to 2 hour free parking etc.

 

However, my issue is to do with an overstay? and advice you can give would be greatly appreciated

 

Thanks

 

Steve

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Just adapt it to suit your circumstances, if it doesn't apply then dump it and renumber the paragraphs accordingly. To be honest, so long as it has the 'not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and lack of contractual authority' the rest of it is largely window dressing (but still a useful insight into why these charges are not as cut and dry as the PPCs would like you to believe)

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what was the result


:???: what me. never heard of you never had a debt with you.

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Hello, please would you update us on the above. Were you successful with your appeal? We have recently had one of these 'parking charge notices' from the Aire Street car park in Leeds and are NOT happy at all!!!!! The information given and what we are being charged with is very unclear, but we are guessing we overstayed by 18 minutes and they want us to pay either £100, or £60 if paid within 14 days. Unbelieveable!!! :mad2:

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